[Manga] Chapter 361 Discussion

[kheldorin]

Originally Posted by Sazelyt

13 year old Sasuke was able to learn Chidori when he wasn't even considered at reasonably good level. So, yes, these jutsus can be learned by others. And they don't have to learn. As long as they can create electricity to electrocute their body (as Hunter mentioned), they can disable the bomb. And, this may not even require the reasonably good part.

So can anyone else besides Kakashi and Sasuke perform Chidori? How many people can actually perform Rasengan? What level of control of Chidori is needed? Can you produce a strong enough electrical current to disable the bombs without killing yourself? What if you can't maintain the electric charge long enough and it dissipates? What if you can't endure the pain and you have to stop the jutsu prematurely? Like I've said, you need both ability and knowledge to do these things. It's like learning a magic trick. If you have the dexterity but you don't know how the trick is done, you can't perform it. If you know how exactly it is done but you don't have the dexterity, you also can't perform it. So no, not all jutsus are easily learnt especially the special ones. If it's so easy, the copying ability of the Sharingan is overrated.

[Sandaime78]

Originally Posted by Sazelyt

You are making the wrong comparison.

Kishi has never intended to make Naruto and Sasuke equally strong. He wanted to make Sasuke at CS2 be as strong as the nine-tailed version of Naruto, or maybe the Kyuubi itself. So, Sasuke still needs to gain some strength to reach there, while Naruto can stay the way he is. Kishi has no problem with it, Sasuke has no problem with it, even Itachi has no problem with it, and these two are the only things that count.

Perhaps...

However, when you read the whole Naruto series, comparing those two are bound to happen. They are afterall, ex-comrads, friends, and rivals to begin with. But quite frankly, I'm just tired of seeing this whole Naruto's usual Kage Bunshin + Rasengan and now to spice it up a little bit, wind element Rasenshuriken or whatever. I'd say it's about time that Jiraiya entrusts Naruto with Yondaime's scroll and becomes a next Konoha's Yellow Flash or something something... oh well, one can only dream...

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by Suna no tate

I'm merely saying that deidara's control over his jutsus is inconsistent. While you say he can deactive his mines with a seal, nothing really seems to indicate this. Granted I haven't been paying super close attention to deidara's fights, but I don't remember him using seals in forming and manipulating his explosive clay. Rather they just seem to explode, but maybe I'm wrong and if so please correct me.

Not hand seal sequences, but a single hand seal like for Kage Bunshin. Deidara always raises two fingers and says "Katsu!" when he wants to detonate his bombs. He does it this chapter. The exception would be when he created the exploding clay bunshin, he had no arms to make that explode, rather it was created to explode immediately. Deidara has showed great control over how his bombs operate. He can create ones that explode immediately, detonate on impact, mines, bombs that home in on a target and then explode, or bombs that detonate on his command. I see no inconsistency or lack of control on Deidara's part.

[Rurik]

Originally Posted by Sazelyt

I don't remember how thick the earth that guy created was. But, it shouldn't be as thick as the mist. And, I just only remember what Neji saw, and he couldn't see the guy beyond the earth-based block..

Remember that Jiroubu doton Jutsu was heavily Shielded with Chakra, which should had been the reason why Neeji could not see pass trough it; the Chakra was acting as a Barrier. And just by knowing that the tick of the Boulder covering Akatsuki cave was greater, you can tell that Thickness was not the reason Neeji could not see trough it.

Originally Posted by Suna no tate

If its a visibility issue, as in light coming from the object to the eye, the explanation is still not consistent. Under the earth, no light from the mine is ab;e to be visible. How is it that a thin eyelid is all thats needed to block the sharingan's detection, and yet sasuke can see through earth, which even if the mines are shallowly placed are thicker than an eyelid which is only fractions of a centimeter thick?

Read Hunter post…and mines because you are overlooking the most important detail here: it is about how deep the mines are, and because they are not deep, (actually shallow) the Chakra can be seen by the Sharigan, nothing here really clouds the Sharingan vision, if the objects were buried into a considerate depth (let say some 5 meters) then in this case Sharigan shuoldnt had sense the Chaka, but this isn’t the case.

And if this is true, that sasuke could sense the mines, then in reality the mines were never any real danger to him cause he can sense them all and just run around them with his ultra speed, yet sasuke doesn't act like this. Rather he gives the indication that he considered them a real danger when we were given privy to his thoughts concerning deidara's fighting style.

If I’m not mistake Deidara planted those mines with the purpose of disabling Sasuke high speed, even if Sasuke’s could see them, he still could not move freely given the mines were everywhere. In this case, these minds posed a Danger to him, but it seems it was not something he worried too much about.

Basically, I think if kishi is to be consistent, closing your eye and being stuck underground have the same visibility and the sharingan should not be able to see through either. Yet somehow the sharingan can see through muscles and bones... (this all goes back to that one pic during the kakashi gaiden... that one pic really destroys any hope of setting limits on what the sharingan can and cannot see... if only it conveniently didn't exist)

Two things, 1st, There is no inconsistency here, this is common logic, with the eye close there is no light available for the eye to focus, whereas for a object buried on Earth, the Sharingan should detect Chakra if its buried shallow enough for the Chakra to pass trought the ground.

2nd the thing we saw in Kakashi gaiden was something that was suspected since start, but it was the first time we could actually see how it looked like from Sharingan perspective. As the same when Sasuke was predicting Naruto’s movements after he gained the 3rd dot.

[SamuraiX]

Originally Posted by Sandaime78

Perhaps...

However, when you read the whole Naruto series, comparing those two are bound to happen. They are afterall, ex-comrads, friends, and rivals to begin with. But quite frankly, I'm just tired of seeing this whole Naruto's usual Kage Bunshin + Rasengan and now to spice it up a little bit, wind element Rasenshuriken or whatever. I'd say it's about time that Jiraiya entrusts Naruto with Yondaime's scroll and becomes a next Konoha's Yellow Flash or something something... oh well, one can only dream...

Yeah I totally agree with you. Its like when Naruto learns a new jutsu that nobody else was able to do he makes it seem like the easiest thing. I mean okay look at it this way when Naruto was first taught Rasengan he used a Kage Bunshin to complete this difficult jutsu. Then when it came to upgrade to Oodama Rasengan he used 2 Kage Bunshins. Now we are at Rasenshuriken and can you believe he is using 3/4 Kage Bunshins. I mean come on have more originality then that because if this series continues then thats all we might be seeing Naruto learning a new never done before technique by just adding 1 or 2 more Bunshins onto what ever number he used on the jutsu before, to complete it.

[Sazelyt]

Originally Posted by kheldorin

So can anyone else besides Kakashi and Sasuke perform Chidori?

Just to make you understand something, they don't have to perform Chidori. Chidori is just one of the jutsus that use the lightning element. There might be countless jutsus that share similar attributes. And considering that there should be many ninjas who can learn how to use the lightning element, including the chuunins, jounins, and above, all over the Naruto world (even a genin use such elements, so, add some more to that list), then the list of possible candidates does not seem to be negligible. They may not be strong, but, they might be strong enough to disable the bombs.

And, you are asking whether they can bear the pain, please, get real. Those guys extract fire from their mouth as if it is a spit, this kind of things almost have no place in the Naruto universe, as long as it is not on the level of Naruto's wind-rasengan.

And, about knowledge, it is something any chuunin and over seem to share. So, it is not limited to Sasuke, or Sharingan, alone.

[Sandaime78]

I mean even Tsunade gave Naruto time to complete his new "jutsu" (to indicate how important this new jutsu is to Naruto and perhaps their upcoming Sasuke rescue mission) but as we all found out later, this jutsu is a one-trick pony. Yes it has a devastating potential; however, it still is something that has to be hit directly. To sum it up, it is just a massive fire power but it lacks a dynamic aspects of what Sasuke has been showing all this time. What do we know about Naruto's fighting style? His shadow clone technique. I am quite aware that Kishimoto made this as Naruto's trademark technique; however, it would be nice to see other aspects of Naruto, instead of repeating same or similar techniques over and over and over and over...

[Chimie]

Originally Posted by Suna no tate

I'm merely saying that deidara's control over his jutsus is inconsistent. While you say he can deactive his mines with a seal, nothing really seems to indicate this. Granted I haven't been paying super close attention to deidara's fights, but I don't remember him using seals in forming and manipulating his explosive clay. Rather they just seem to explode, but maybe I'm wrong and if so please correct me.

KATSU! is his phrase he yells and does a simple hand seal.

However, if I'm right and he doesn't use seals to control his jutsu, its odd how he doesn't explode the mine when sasuke steps on it and how he doesn't keep his own mines from exploding when he falls on them... in hindsight, I'm also a little curious about where sasuke landed after he cuts off deidara's dragons wing with that leaping attack of his... convenient how deidara landed smack on the mines, yet somehow sasuke averts disaster...

Sasuke grew snakes out of his arm and flew over to a tree, no?

[kheldorin]

Originally Posted by Sazelyt

Just to make you understand something, they don't have to perform Chidori. Chidori is just one of the jutsus that use the lightning element. There might be countless jutsus that share similar attributes. And considering that there should be many ninjas who can learn how to use the lightning element, including the chuunins, jounins, and above, all over the Naruto world (even a genin use such elements, so, add some more to that list), then the list of possible candidates does not seem to be negligible. They may not be strong, but, they might be strong enough to disable the bombs.

How do you know that it is strong enough? And what other jutsus that share the same attributes? Please enlighten me.

Originally Posted by Sazelyt

And, you are asking whether they can bear the pain, please, get real. Those guys extract fire from their mouth as if it is a spit, this kind of things almost have no place in the Naruto universe, as long as it is not on the level of Naruto's wind-rasengan.

Spitting fire from their mouth does not hurt oneself unlike self-electrocution. And again how do judge what level is high enough for it to "have a place in the Naruto universe"?

Still, the point is not whether they can endure the pain. The point is whether they endure the pain while still able to complete jutsu. And you avoided all my other questions.

Maybe I have failed to be clear but all the questions I asked is to illustrate that it's not as simple as
Step 1: Create Lightning
Step 2: Electrocute Oneself
And Rasengan is not
Step 1 : Create ball of chakra
Step 2: Spin it around
And Delivering a baby is not
Step 1: Pull it out
Step 2: Cut the cord

There are a certain techniques and considerations involved so that you don't end up killing yourself. Maybe you will need to know exactly how to direct the flow of electrons so that it only kills the micro bombs and minimize damage to the surrounding cells.

Originally Posted by Sazelyt

And, about knowledge, it is something any chuunin and over seem to share. So, it is not limited to Sasuke, or Sharingan, alone.

No, they don't. Most of the jutsus are passed down through their sensei or through their clans. There is no 'library' where you can just pick up a certain jutsu. Certain jutsus especially the special ones are closely guarded.

[haomaru]

ppl tend to theorize charecters strength through their jutsus, the 3rd hokage himself said that true strenght doesn't come from knowing all the jutsus, as for sasuke being stronger than naruto, he's definitley much more adept in a battle than naruto, but as allways naruto is invensible in pulling something from nowhere witch makes his adversaries look dumb in comparison.

[Sarugaki]

So, Sasuke wins, huh ?
Damn, that was unexpected... not!

[Suna no tate]

aahhh... a single seal... haven't been paying close enough attention at all...I still think his abilities are a little inconsistent. Why not blow up the bird, when sasuke approached it, both the first time and the second time? The bunshin that sasuke stabbed? Both cases deidara's hands were free and with one, they were indeed in the katsu seal position? WHy not the the mines? If you had your enemy surrounded by landmines where he could not move, wouldn't it be logical to simply blow them all up?

Two things, 1st, There is no inconsistency here, this is common logic, with the eye close there is no light available for the eye to focus, whereas for a object buried on Earth, the Sharingan should detect Chakra if its buried shallow enough for the Chakra to pass trought the ground.

perhaps we are looking at the same cookie in different ways. What is the role of light in your interpretation? In one sentence you speak of the sharingan detecting light and in the other detecting chakra? What exactly is light doing? if its transmitting something what is it transmitting? And why is it that light that is specifcally blocked by having layers of earth placed on top of it, is capable of still transmitting information to the sharingan eye, whilst when all light is nonspecifically blocked by closing an eyelid, the sharingan then fails to detect anything? Are we discussing different light sources here? Different roles?

[workingclass]

all this talk about landmines and depth is really fricken stupid.land mines are concealed they are not really buried. or rather not buried deep. if there is to much earth inbetween the mine and the person supposed to be activating the mine then no pressure will set the mine off.

most land mines are buried just under the surface and usually have some kind of tripper thats just exposed above ground

[Sazelyt]

Originally Posted by kheldorin

How do you know that it is strong enough? And what other jutsus that share the same attributes? Please enlighten me.

Let's see......How can I answer such a question? How do I know it will be strong enough? Maybe, the way I know there are other ninjas who are capable of using lightning elemental - the common attribute that I was talking about. And, if you want to know how can there be people other than Sasuke and Kakashi, who can use lightning, well that is something you should assume, especially if you consider there are tens of thousand of ninjas at or above chuunin level, being capable of using the elemental power they have, and considering that wind is the rare one compared to lightning, and the people who know wind being currently at count 2. So, yes there should be at least one other lightning user. And if you can get this fact to your head, then the other part comes naturally.

Spitting fire from their mouth does not hurt oneself unlike self-electrocution. And again how do judge what level is high enough for it to "have a place in the Naruto universe"?

Really? Try to spit fire from your internal organs, the organs that are not as durable as the outer layer, and see if it hurts of not? After experiencing it yourself, please let me know, about the other part!

Still, the point is not whether they can endure the pain. The point is whether they endure the pain while still able to complete jutsu. And you avoided all my other questions.

Believe me they can endure pain. And, it is not even a matter of pain, at the moment of using it, they are not going to stop even if they want to. And I hope you don't expect me to reply to the questions "when there is storm outside, will there be dark clouds?" with an answer, over and over again.

There are a certain techniques and considerations involved so that you don't end up killing yourself. Maybe you will need to know exactly how to direct the flow of electrons so that it only kills the micro bombs and minimize damage to the surrounding cells.

Interestingly, the weaker the person, the easier it is to avoid getting killed himself using the technique. And, in Naruto universe there is no such consideration, do you really believe, Sasuke in that moment, directed the flow of electricity in a way to avoid damaging neighboring cells, blah blah. There is nothing like that. He used it and he survived. In other words, as long as the author wants, the person lives. So, it is a matter of whether they can or they cannot use a technique like that. And, so, yes, they can.

No, they don't. Most of the jutsus are passed down through their sensei or through their clans. There is no 'library' where you can just pick up a certain jutsu. Certain jutsus especially the special ones are closely guarded.

Didn't I just say, it doesn't have to be chidori? So, the only knowledge the person requires is how to use the lightning elemental. And, it is not something that belongs to Kakashi or Sasuke, or a clan alone. It is a pretty general knowledge.

[Katsumara]

So.. why is this anime called "Naruto" again? o.o;

[Sazelyt]

Originally Posted by Katsumara

So.. why is this anime called "Naruto" again? o.o;

Maybe because it sounds better than Sasuke.

[Sandaime78]

Originally Posted by haomaru

ppl tend to theorize charecters strength through their jutsus, the 3rd hokage himself said that true strenght doesn't come from knowing all the jutsus, as for sasuke being stronger than naruto, he's definitley much more adept in a battle than naruto, but as allways naruto is invensible in pulling something from nowhere witch makes his adversaries look dumb in comparison.

Ah yes, Sandaime's fortune cookie lesson to Oro and he is absolutely right. But come on, no matter how much willpower you have, if you do not have the artilery to fight back, can you actually defeat someone with just willpower alone? I am not saying Sandaime was wrong, his theory is right; however, that doesn't necessary constitute that will power alone can prevail. Hell, Naruto's case is different than everyone, why? because he IS the main character of this series and therefore, he had to prevail in some way. But anyhow, I am just little disappointed that Naruto the main character is not showing any dynamic side of him and that it's getting boring and boring by the episode.

ps. Although I realize this, I know I'll watch the next episode for my curiosity is my biggest flaw. Hell with this... >.<

Edit: All this friendship and love for comrad is nice and dandy, but at times, I feel like Kishimoto is driving this whole lovey dovey thing on Naruto and make him look sissy in a lot of ways. Hell, I liked how Naruto was fighting during the time when him and Sasuke fought Zabuza back a while ago. He was cool back then. Now, he is just... clumsy and all in all, just a fill-in-the-gap character while Sasuke is shining.

[7thFonon]

^^^ Yeah really, and Naruto hasn't even been shown once since the last two chapters. It's all Sasuke.

[XYKE]

last two chapters? who are you kidding...

it's been at least 4

[Monkey D. Luffy]

Anyway this new chapter was alright it seems the incredible genius Uchiha, Sasuke had everything figured out by the time Deidara saw through his Genjutsu and it seems that the Sharingan once again defeated Deidara. He might lose it next chapter, since he did all that just for the sharingan to figure out his explosives and stop the C4.

Well, where can this fight go from here either Sasuke kills Deidara, someone comes and interrupts the fight or Sasuke just decides to stop and leaves. Whatever it is I don't want Deidara to die and I want Sasuke to get another scare or atleast a scratch, all that damage he has was mostly self inflicted.

Originally Posted by Sandaime78

Edit: All this friendship and love for comrad is nice and dandy, but at times, I feel like Kishimoto is driving this whole lovey dovey thing on Naruto and make him look sissy in a lot of ways. Hell, I liked how Naruto was fighting during the time when him and Sasuke fought Zabuza back a while ago. He was cool back then. Now, he is just... clumsy and all in all, just a fill-in-the-gap character while Sasuke is shining.

Honestly that has been Naruto all throughout Part II, his character just became a Sasuke obssesed bore with nothing else to do except let Sasuke get the spotlight while he is in he back worrying about him, this has become more than ever the Sasuke show.