[Manga] Chapter 361 Discussion

[kheldorin]

Originally Posted by Endless Twilight

You're missing the point. Me hating it has nothing to do with it being similar Pokemon... I just compared them because they are, in fact, similar, but that's not the reason why I dislike it. I hate the elemental system because I find it lame since it makes strategy parcially meaningless in a duel that can be decided by just "water > fire lol".

It's not. You must have skipped the past few chapters? The condition of both fighters indicate that it's not an auto-win for the lightning user. And Sasuke himself wasn't sure that his lightning jutsus would of high-level enough to defuse the bombs.

Kinda of embarassing that I know this but in higher level competition pokemon battles noone uses elemental weaknesses as the basis of their strategy. If you setup your team properly and then equip them with the proper skills, even at an elemental disadvantage, you can defeat your opponent easily.

Kishi has introduced the elemental system and it was a major part of the Kakuzu battle as well as the 3rd Hokage battle. So to maintain consistency, he can't really forget about it.

[Sarugaki]

Originally Posted by shaselai

although earth is weak against lightning but Deidara's earth spells are/should be powerful enough to overcome the lightning weakness though shouldnt it? O well... sasuke's gotta win agiainst deidara somehow..... plus, when kakuzu was fighting against Kakashi, didnt he use an element attack that's strong against lightning and kakashi blocked it with a chidori? Or maybe kakuzu didnt///need to check again..

He used a chidori against an earth-based jutsu ( Kakuzu's body shield ) and a badass double-handed chidori against an other lightning jutsu, since he can't use wind jutsus. Then Naruto arrived and "beat" Kakazu...

[cani]

oh well...
sasuke is unbeatable...I dont want to know who else he is gonna kill..first oro..now dd(?)
it seems like sharingan can do everything.it can construct a plane with just a piece of paper and a pen, kinda macguyver like.
oh man..i want sasukes ass getting beaten.just like against gaara..when he had no chance at all..
but i guess...if we see sasuke fail, the manga will continue forever!

[Frenchie]

I liked it. Especially since it came at quite a cost for Sasuke to defuse the bombs. He may have managed to level the confrontation, but as we can see, there is still the "final explosion" that's coming up.

Meaning that if Deidara dies with that explosion, Sasuke will still be extremely worn out from the fight. Would Tobi take advantage of it ?

Perhaps that's when some guy from team Snake will intervene. Or one of the teams.

I want to see Shino first !

[ri0]

I liked this chapter even though Deidara lost (he was right after all... without Sharingan, Sasuke would be dead already )... but one thing really confuses me. We know that the Sharingan can see the chakra.. but through the earth?? Was this so all the time? Because I thought the user needs to have direct view at the target. I mean if Sasuke could really see those bombs under the ground, I'd really have to retake my choice at the Byakugan/Sharingan-Thread... that would be way too uber.

[Ulquiorra]

^ I don't think he can see through solid objects. It's more like he can see chakra through solid objects. It's not like X-ray vision. It's chakra vision. And the landmines weren't buried that deep.

The Byakugan vs. Sharingan has long been decided. I think it's clear which is stronger. The Sharingan is used by the Mary Sue Uchiha. The Byakugan by a bunch of side characters.

I think this sums up the fight.

Spoiler for Sasuke vs. Deidara:

By God Itachi on narutofan

-- Insert Pokemon battle music --


Sasuke has encountered a wild Deidara.*
-----------

Deidara uses C1. Its not very effective.
--
Sasuke uses Chidori Needle. Its SUPER effective.
--
Tobi uses mines. Mines are underground!
--
Deidara uses C2. Its not very effective.
--
Sasuke uses Electric Sword Throw. It misses.
--
Deidara uses taunt. It fails
--
Sasuke Kunangi is electrified.
--
The mines have been disabled
--
Deidara uses C4. Its not effective.
--
Counter! Sasuke uses confusion. Its SUPER effective!
--
Deidara uses fly. Deidara is up in the air.
--
Sasuke uses fly. Sasuke is up in the air.
--
Deidara uses dig. Deidara is underground.
--
Sasuke uses Chidori! It fails. Deidara has been revealed!
--
Deidara uses Self Destruct: C4 edition.
--
Counter! Sasuke uses Chidori Nagashi. Its SUPER effective.
--
Sasuke uses Focus Tension. Sasuke use focusing
--
Deidara uses quick attack. Misses.
--
Sasuke uses Focus Punch. Its super effective
--
Deidara has been stuned. He is unable to move.
--
Sasuke uses Master Ball.
--
Deidara has been captured.
--
Would you like to nickname Deidara?
--
Nickname to Fail? Please Confirm
*Yes*
You have won the game

[ri0]

Originally Posted by Ulquiorra

^ I don't think he can see through solid objects. It's more like he can see chakra through solid objects. It's not like X-ray vision. It's chakra vision. And the landmines weren't buried that deep.

But if you can see chakra through solid objects, you know that there are enemie's hidden, etc... So I think this is a very important factor, though it's clear he only sees chakra.

The Byakugan vs. Sharingan has long been decided. I think it's clear which is stronger. The Sharingan is used by the Mary Sue Uchiha. The Byakugan by a bunch of side characters.

I didn't make my choice based on strength back then... Which wasn't the question anyways if I remember right.

BTW: It's time for Tobi to finish off an enemy... I hope Kishi doesn't forget about him.

[tatami]

just love tha way kishimato s storytelling...

as i said before he is suprising people and me on and on...who could ever think that the sword thing?none... just so happy that manga is way ahaead of anime in terms of story and action

[SamuraiX]

Originally Posted by Ulquiorra

^ I don't think he can see through solid objects. It's more like he can see chakra through solid objects. It's not like X-ray vision. It's chakra vision. And the landmines weren't buried that deep.

The Byakugan vs. Sharingan has long been decided. I think it's clear which is stronger. The Sharingan is used by the Mary Sue Uchiha. The Byakugan by a bunch of side characters.

I think this sums up the fight.

Spoiler for Sasuke vs. Deidara:

By God Itachi on narutofan

-- Insert Pokemon battle music --


Sasuke has encountered a wild Deidara.*
-----------

Deidara uses C1. Its not very effective.
--
Sasuke uses Chidori Needle. Its SUPER effective.
--
Tobi uses mines. Mines are underground!
--
Deidara uses C2. Its not very effective.
--
Sasuke uses Electric Sword Throw. It misses.
--
Deidara uses taunt. It fails
--
Sasuke Kunangi is electrified.
--
The mines have been disabled
--
Deidara uses C4. Its not effective.
--
Counter! Sasuke uses confusion. Its SUPER effective!
--
Deidara uses fly. Deidara is up in the air.
--
Sasuke uses fly. Sasuke is up in the air.
--
Deidara uses dig. Deidara is underground.
--
Sasuke uses Chidori! It fails. Deidara has been revealed!
--
Deidara uses Self Destruct: C4 edition.
--
Counter! Sasuke uses Chidori Nagashi. Its SUPER effective.
--
Sasuke uses Focus Tension. Sasuke use focusing
--
Deidara uses quick attack. Misses.
--
Sasuke uses Focus Punch. Its super effective
--
Deidara has been stuned. He is unable to move.
--
Sasuke uses Master Ball.
--
Deidara has been captured.
--
Would you like to nickname Deidara?
--
Nickname to Fail? Please Confirm
*Yes*
You have won the game

Roflcopter lol. Now that is funny. And does anyone else find it weird that Deidara who is a earth element reminds me alot of a Diglet or Dugtrio who is also a earth element rofl. And they all begin with D.

[yinstro]

I thought this was a pretty well planned out ninja fight. As far as it being a case of elemental jutsu winning, its not so simple as that, teh real discovery was that his c4 was micro bombs which invaded his system and blew up. Then he decides to flodd his body with chidori to destroy them, but the way they describe elemental weakness a similar effect should be able to be done with other elements, It would just require more juice. Essentially naruto could prolly have done the same thing with wind chakra, though it would require more energy to do so.

The way it has been desciribe is, essentially something is normal against some elements, but some elements have an edge or weakness, this tends only to ocme into play though if the jutsu's are close in level. Which means you can in fact beat lighting with earth, if your earth is just that much superior to the lightning jutsu at hand,. his chidori gave him an advantage, but my guess is he probably could have done the samething with katon chakra, course he may have killed himself in the process.

Anyhow i think it was good for sasuke to show some skill and people to battle on a high mental level. But its not really over, sauske reallly wants to capture deidara, and it seems he doesnt have enough chakra to form explosive clay, so he may not be able to kill himslef, its also likely someone may interupt and save his hide (deidara)

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by Suna no tate

aahhh... a single seal... haven't been paying close enough attention at all...I still think his abilities are a little inconsistent. Why not blow up the bird, when sasuke approached it, both the first time and the second time? The bunshin that sasuke stabbed? Both cases deidara's hands were free and with one, they were indeed in the katsu seal position? WHy not the the mines? If you had your enemy surrounded by landmines where he could not move, wouldn't it be logical to simply blow them all up?

Deidara has several type of bombs. He made the mines so he wouldn't have to trigger them at will since he didn't even know where they were. He made those mines so they would explode on pression if someone happened to walk above them.
That was an important part of Sasuke's plan to discover if his Lightning jutsu could really disable Deidara's bombs :

• Sasuke noticed the bombs touched by the Chidori Needles didn't go off after Deidara used one to get away from his sword, knowing that Deidara used Doton jutsu which have a weakness against Lightning he made the hypothesis that Lightning could disable the bombs.
• He had to verify this hypothesis because it was also possible that Deidara didn't explode them on purpose to avoid blowing up Tobi so he purposely went into the minefield (using CS2 as a protection against the explosion) which he could see thanks to the Sharingan and made sure these mine were blowing off automatically without Deidara's will.
• Once he made sure of that, he charged his sword with Lightning and threw it right into a mine in order to verify his guess that he could disable these bombs with eletricity and to set up his second plan to put Deidara and his dragon down.

Using his Chidori against himself to counter the C4 was a last second counter, he never intended to be go this far but he was tricked by Deidara's Clay Bunshin and he had no choice but overloading himself internally with electricity to destroy every nano-bombs hidden into his body.

[yuchan]

Ugh, This elemental stuff is stupid. I could swear before Kishimoto started retconing everything and copying off HxH with the elemental system, it was stated that the chidori was just a pure visual form of Chakra. The same with the raseangan. I mean, the chidori obviuosly looked like lighting but he still never said it was lightning. He needs to go reread his own earlier chapters. And while he's at it. Take away Sakuras super Tsunade strength.

[Suna no tate]

I remember a long time ago, when itachi and kakashi were fighting in konoha, kakashi said something about how he couldn't keep up with itachi's jutsus cause they seemed to be incredibly fast. Then I proposed that hey look, itachi's hands are always hidden inside his stupid akatsuki cloak. If the sharingan can't see the handseals, it can't read them and thus itachi will seem even faster (jutsu wise) than he already is. In other words, the cloaks can help hide hand seals and give the user a tactical advantage.

Then came the naysayers, saying noo.... itachi is just ultra fast, blah blah blah... Look I know he's fast but I'm saying the cloak an dhow itachi keeps his seals hidden all the time (or at least during that one fight all of the time) contributed to how easily he threw off kakashi's sharingan. Now sasuke finally says it when he says "against the sharingan, the only thing you can do is hide your hands while you form your seals". This confirms that most likely that is what itachi was doing to throw off kakashi's sharingan. It also seems to indicate that things like cloaks, can block the sharingan. This stupid doujutsu... too confusing...

[abazou]

Originally Posted by cani

oh well...
sasuke is unbeatable...I dont want to know who else he is gonna kill..first oro..now dd(?)
it seems like sharingan can do everything.it can construct a plane with just a piece of paper and a pen, kinda macguyver like.
oh man..i want sasukes ass getting beaten.just like against gaara..when he had no chance at all..
but i guess...if we see sasuke fail, the manga will continue forever!

Actually Sasuke owned Garaa it was his curse seal that locked his body after the 3rd chidori.

[yungz21]

sasuke could have killed garra if he knew exactly where garra was in that sand bubble

[XYKE]

Originally Posted by yungz21

sasuke could have killed garra if he knew exactly where garra was in that sand bubble

That's just as stupid as saying that Deidera might have won if he knew what was going to happen to him in this fight.

[elusive]

Originally Posted by cani

oh well...
sasuke is unbeatable...I dont want to know who else he is gonna kill..first oro..now dd(?)
it seems like sharingan can do everything.it can construct a plane with just a piece of paper and a pen, kinda macguyver like.
oh man..i want sasukes ass getting beaten.just like against gaara..when he had no chance at all..
but i guess...if we see sasuke fail, the manga will continue forever!

unbeatbable? no one has lost more fights or been humbled more then sasuke. he LOST to LEE, SOUND 4, GAARA (naruto had to save him and sakura), ITACHI, chidori lost to rasengan on the hospital roof, and oro made him look like a coward in forest. we've seen sasuke FAIL repeatdely.

when did all this sasuke/sharigan hate start? it's silly and gets in the way of any real discussion when biased fanboys/girls starts going on about nothing.

Originally Posted by yuchan

Ugh, This elemental stuff is stupid. I could swear before Kishimoto started retconing everything and copying off HxH with the elemental system, it was stated that the chidori was just a pure visual form of Chakra. The same with the raseangan. I mean, the chidori obviuosly looked like lighting but he still never said it was lightning. He needs to go reread his own earlier chapters. And while he's at it. Take away Sakuras super Tsunade strength.

the chidori/rasengan by themselves are just visual chakra but they learned to combine/fuse the visual chakra with lightning/wind elements. we saw sasuke use his lightning when yamato confronted him. we just didn't see him train like naruto did.

maybe you should reread the chapters not kishi. he didn't start "retconing" anything. look at the hokage fight, they used the elements in a way that's consistent with the current chapters.

why are people complaining about elemental systems when they've been around since the chuunin exam? it wasn't explained then because elemental jutsu are obviously high level attacks that are chuunin/jounin level. it's not taught to genin just like kage bunshin isn't. it's a technique too advanced/dangerous for them to learn.

[Kakosan]

Ok, I have a question (open question, of course I don't have the answer): If Sasuke was able to see the landmines just because of the color of chackra (below the surface)... how come that Itachi couldn't see Kakashi when he was hiding underground????????

I believe there are many things "out of the blue" that were used just to justify a victory for Sasuke.

Originally Posted by abazou

Actually Sasuke owned Garaa it was his curse seal that locked his body after the 3rd chidori.

I'm not sure about this. In my opinion, the 3-chidori rule was more a limitation due to Sasuke's chackra abilities at that moment rather than a problem with the CS (which was recently sealed at that time). Sasuke's problems with the seal pretty much ended after Kakashi sealed it. The problem afterwards was that IF he used the CS too much, he would lose himself, but there were no limitations with respect to the jutsus that he was using.

[Sinaura]

Originally Posted by elusive

unbeatbable? no one has lost more fights or been humbled more then sasuke. he LOST to LEE, SOUND 4, GAARA (naruto had to save him and sakura), ITACHI, chidori lost to rasengan on the hospital roof, and oro made him look like a coward in forest. we've seen sasuke FAIL repeatdely.

when did all this sasuke/sharigan hate start? it's silly and gets in the way of any real discussion when biased fanboys/girls starts going on about nothing.

Before these eyes, your arguments are powerless. People aren't fanboys if they dislike a char, quite the opposite really.

Sasuke is becoming as stagnant a character as ever. Predicting his fights are going to be easy now; he uses the sharingan, is outclass by the opponent until he goes CS2, uses his sharingan to analyze everything about the opponent from reading his chakra level to checking his prostate, and finally says "before these eyes....useless blahblahblah". What happened to all of those little nifty jutsus Oro taught him, don't reduce a good 2.5 yrs of training to CS2 and chidori mastery Kishi. I guess the Sannins are all the same with their training.

If this arc ends without any combat from Hinata Shino and Kiba I quit.

[elusive]

Originally Posted by Kakosan

Ok, I have a question (open question, of course I don't have the answer): If Sasuke was able to see the landmines just because of the color of chackra (below the surface)... how come that Itachi couldn't see Kakashi when he was hiding underground????????

I believe there are many things "out of the blue" that were used just to justify a victory for Sasuke.

A)depth
when we've seen characters go in the ground they usually go further down then where the mines were.

B)chakra
the chakra that's contained in the mines is probably different then the body.

the mines are bigger then a basketball and are filled w/a high amount of chakra. it's even possible that the chakra seeps to the surface so that when it's stepped on the bombs ignites.

C)did itachi look down?
sasuke focused/actively looked at the mines. if itachi didn't focus his sharigan at what he's trying to analze maybe he didn't see it. sasuke didn't see the bombs in his body until he "zoomed in" on that area.

Originally Posted by Sinaura

Before these eyes, your arguments are powerless. People aren't fanboys if they dislike a char, quite the opposite really.

Sasuke is becoming as stagnant a character as ever. Predicting his fights are going to be easy now; he uses the sharingan, is outclass by the opponent until he goes CS2, uses his sharingan to analyze everything about the opponent from reading his chakra level to checking his prostate, and finally says "before these eyes....useless blahblahblah". What happened to all of those little nifty jutsus Oro taught him, don't reduce a good 2.5 yrs of training to CS2 and chidori mastery Kishi. I guess the Sannins are all the same with their training.

If this arc ends without any combat from Hinata Shino and Kiba I quit.

Sasuke predictable? every character whose fought a lot is predictable in that same general way.

shika: use shadow bind, get overpowered, strategize, outsmart
naruto: kage bunshin, rasengan, surprise attack, 9 tails
kakashi: sharigan, chidori,
neji: byakgan, gentle fist, heavenly spin, 64 hands

you're doing nothing but obviously stating what jutsu they'll use and their eventual victory. please direct us to the post where you accurately predicted this fight w/dd. it's not the jutsu they use it's the context that they use them that makes the fights unpredictable. we all knew shika would shadow bind hidan but who knew he'd bury him alive?

obviously he'll use the sharigan and beat dd. the only surprise would be if sasuke got killed and that's not happening.