Equality of Men and Women?

[Thewanderer]

Jeez WK, what's with the hostility?

Originally Posted by WanderingKnight

Freedom: To do whatever the fuck I want whenever it doesn't harm anyone, not giving a damn fuck about what society thinks of me and what my role should be in it. That's freedom for me. And with your concept of "men should do this, and women should do that", you're giving them a role they may or may not want. You're saying that they should wish to do so... but why? Why, for Jebus' sake?

Why not? Why should society pressure women to go work anyway? Because it's "politically correct"? Well FYI, just because something's politically correct don't automatically mean it's right.

And I'm not trying to give anyone a role they don't want. Don't put words in my mouth.

Originally Posted by WanderingKnight

Just who are you to determine what's good for anyone and what should be anyone thinking? Let people decide what's good for them and think for themselves, we have enough "opinion-makers" out there already.

Who are you to determine anything either?

This is just my opinion. I just think today's political correctness is misguided, that's all. Nothing wrong with a different opinion, right? It's not like I'm trying to get everyone here on AS to obey me or something

[SeijiSensei]

Originally Posted by AnhMinh

Free to be thrown out on the streets and starve? How great.

Originally Posted by Thewanderer

You're saying it like that outcome would be a normal thing, It wouldn't.

"The family income of children [in the US] whose parents divorce and remain divorced for at least six years falls by 40 to 45 percent."

See: http://www.nber.org/digest/jul02/w8786.html.

Remarriage helps:

"Families respond to the absence of a second parent in a variety of ways that help mitigate some of the costs, the authors note. In the case of children born to single parents who subsequently marry and remain married for at least six years, post-tax family income increases 50 percent and pre-tax income rises 57 percent."

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Thewanderer

Why not? Why should society pressure women to go work anyway? Because it's "politically correct"? Well FYI, just because something's politically correct don't automatically mean it's right.

You are dodging the real matter here : the society doesn't rpessure women to go work. Basically, various movements were required to pressure the society, so Women can do the same things that men do, without being judged due gender, or getting advantages/disadvantages because of their gender.

The problem I see with your logic is mainly because you are giving stereotype on genders. While in reality it is true and most mothers are housewives, i don't see why they "should" want to be in the kitchen.

This line makes me think that you are not forcing, but you are suggesting that women who are not in the kitchen are simply not in their field, but they still have the freedom to do so.

and that is a mere and old stereotype which isn't positive for equality anyway.

And I'm not trying to give anyone a role they don't want. Don't put words in my mouth.

you don't, but you are suggesting they "should", that's the problem. it is like "it isn't really optimized, but yeah, you can leave the kitchen".

that how "I" understood your statement.

[Thewanderer]

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

"The family income of children [in the US] whose parents divorce and remain divorced for at least six years falls by 40 to 45 percent."

See: http://www.nber.org/digest/jul02/w8786.html.

Remarriage helps:

"Families respond to the absence of a second parent in a variety of ways that help mitigate some of the costs, the authors note. In the case of children born to single parents who subsequently marry and remain married for at least six years, post-tax family income increases 50 percent and pre-tax income rises 57 percent."

That's why I can't stand serial monogamy for the most part. I also don't agree with divorces. It allows people to be too irresponsible. I also don't agree with women having kids outside of marriage either.

If you're gonna get married, it should be forever. "Till death do you part" and all.



Oh, and this don't come from a religious Point of view. I'm Atheist.

[monir]

Umm.. anyone who believes a topic is too aggravating for them to refrain themselves from adding vulgarity, then it is time for you to stop posting in any particular thread. If you are going to argue, please do it without those colorful words. The chances are that your post will have much more impact and will be taken seriously.

[Anh_Minh]

Staying in an abusive relationship is not a responsible act.

For that matter, even without abuse, I don't see much point in staying in a relationship that de facto makes everyone involved unhappy.

[WanderingKnight]

Why not? Why should society pressure women to go work anyway?

What! You're putting words in my mouth. I said, let them do what they want. That's it. I'm not pressuring them to work. If you want me to pander over the evils of capitalism and labor, I'll do it, but in the proper thread.

And I'm not trying to give anyone a role they don't want. Don't put words in my mouth.

Nope, you're trying to determine what a gender should want. And that's determining what they should think.

Who are you to determine anything either?

I'm not ruling over people's decisions. I'm telling them to do what they want, that's it. As long as they don't harm anyone else, they're free to take the role they want, to be gay, straight, bisexual, to marry, to remain unmarried but as a couple, whatever they want. I want freedom for both members of a couple to take whichever role they deem necessary--or better yet, I don't try applying any role to them. In my family, my mom works and studies, my mom's husband works and takes care of my sister (since he doesn't study, he has more time to do so) and the family chores are divided between us four members, though my mom gets less due to the fact that she's not home most of the time. I was also working some months ago (quit because of study). Is there any role you could apply to this family?

Umm.. anyone who believes a topic is too aggravating for them to refrain themselves from adding vulgarity, then it is time for you to stop posting in any particular thread. If you are going to argue, please do it without those colorful words. The chances are that your post will have much more impact and will be taken seriously.

I take heed, and apologize for the rudeness.

[Alice Elliot]

You can't expect a marriage to last forever. Of course it would be nice if it was like that. But I'm sure everyone wishes to keep their feelings and everyone who gets married wishes that it would last forever. (except celebrity who are doing it out of fun or persons who are forced to marry a certain guy/girl) But seriously if a couple recognizes after years that it doesn't work anymore, even if they wanted it to be for eternity, it's better for both of them to break up and start a new life. It often happens that you lose your feelings for a person with time or that you notice that he/she isn't the right one. But how to find out those things if you never try. And with time I'm not talking about a few years or smth. I'm talking about people who notice those things after 10-20+ Years of marriage. It could happen to anyone, even unwanted. And those also have the right to marry.

And about getting children only when married. Why should it need a marriage to give birth to children, because it looks better to society?

[Thewanderer]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Staying in an abusive relationship is not a responsible act.

For that matter, even without abuse, I don't see much point in staying in a relationship that de facto makes everyone involved unhappy.

Yes.

But more and more people tend to rush into already-doomed relationships nowadays. Society shouldn't revolve around it's stupidity like that.

Originally Posted by WanderingKnight

What! You're putting words in my mouth. I said, let them do what they want. That's it. I'm not pressuring them to work. If you want me to pander over the evils of capitalism and labor, I'll do it, but in the proper thread.

So you're saying that if the majority of women today wanted to become housewives, you wouldn't be against it?

Originally Posted by WanderingKnight

Nope, you're trying to determine what a gender should want. And that's determining what they should think.

No, I'm saying that they should, not trying to determine anything. And yes, I believe that they should think like that. What's wrong with that?

Originally Posted by WanderingKnight

I'm not ruling over people's decisions. I'm telling them to do what they want, that's it. As long as they don't harm anyone else, they're free to take the role they want, to be gay, straight, bisexual, to marry, to remain unmarried but as a couple, whatever they want. I want freedom for both members of a couple to take whichever role they deem necessary--or better yet, I don't try applying any role to them. In my family, my mom works and studies, my mom's husband works and takes care of my sister (since he doesn't study, he has more time to do so) and the family chores are divided between us four members, though my mom gets less due to the fact that she's not home most of the time. I was also working some months ago (quit because of study). Is there any role you could apply to this family?

I'm encouraging people to do what they want as well. But I don't believe they should want certain things. There's too many wrong decisions made in the modern world IMO(but most of which might be suitable for a different topic)

And it's not anyone's place to apply roles to individuals, so I have no comment on your family. They're free to make their own decisions. As I said before, my fiancee and I have reversed gender roles... I'd be a hypocrite if I thought everyone should be bound to their gender roles.

Originally Posted by WanderingKnight

I take heed, and apologize for the rudeness.

It's okay, this is just a harmless debate. As long as there's no hard feelings, right?

Originally Posted by Alice Elliot

You can't expect a marriage to last forever. Of course it would be nice if it was like that. But I'm sure everyone wishes to keep their feelings and everyone who gets married wishes that it would last forever. (except celebrity who are doing it out of fun or persons who are forced to marry a certain guy/girl) But seriously if a couple recognizes after years that it doesn't work anymore, even if they wanted it to be for eternity, it's better for both of them to break up and start a new life. It often happens that you lose your feelings for a person with time or that you notice that he/she isn't the right one. But how to find out those things if you never try. And with time I'm not talking about a few years or smth. I'm talking about people who notice those things after 10-20+ Years of marriage. It could happen to anyone, even unwanted. And those also have the right to marry.

And about getting children only when married. Why should it need a marriage to give birth to children, because it looks better to society?

You could "find out" without getting married(which should be considered more of a commitment IMO). Of course there'll be a few exceptions(not everyone could last in a marriage even in a perfect world), but encouraging people to "marry around" instead of "dating around" isn't right.

[WanderingKnight]

So you're saying that if the majority of women today wanted to become housewives, you wouldn't be against it?

Did I say otherwise? Of course I wouldn't be against it. I would certainly doubt that'd happen, but I wouldn't be against it. But of course, true freedom of choice in today's world is an illusion, so using the real world is not quite valid as a comparison.

No, I'm saying that they should, not trying to determine anything. And yes, I believe that they should think like that. What's wrong with that?

Of course you can't actually determine what they should want, because you're not in a position of power, but saying what they should want is enough for me (and that's what I was talking about with 'determine').

I'm encouraging people to do what they want as well. But I don't believe they should want certain things. There's too many wrong decisions made in the modern world IMO(but most of which might be suitable for a different topic)

'Wrong decisions'? Such as? There's where your close-mindness is surfacing, IMO. Just who are you to deem a decision that doesn't harm anyone at all good or wrong?

And it's not anyone's place to apply roles to individuals, so I have no comment on your family.

So you're pulling back your comments on the "role of the woman" and the "role of the man"?

They're free to make their own decisions. As I said before, my fiancee and I have reversed gender roles... I'd be a hypocrite if I thought everyone should be bound to their gender roles.

So what you said at the beginning of that paragraph was just throwing words around. First you said, "no one should apply any role to any individual", but then you talk about actual gender roles?

[Alice Elliot]

Originally Posted by Thewanderer

You could "find out" without getting married(which should be considered more of a commitment IMO). Of course there'll be a few exceptions(not everyone could last in a marriage even in a perfect world), but encouraging people to "marry around" instead of "dating around" isn't right.

That's true and for me it's just normal to date at least a year and live together for a while before getting married. But even those relationships break. Even with more years of "trying" before getting married it might break later. So dun understand me wrong with this matter ^^

[Thewanderer]

Originally Posted by WanderingKnight

Of course you can't actually determine what they should want, because you're not in a position of power, but saying what they should want is enough for me (and that's what I was talking about with 'determine').

I'd never force anyone into that, even if I could.

Originally Posted by WanderingKnight

'Wrong decisions'? Such as? There's where your close-mindness is surfacing, IMO. Just who are you to deem a decision that doesn't harm anyone at all good or wrong?

That's where your close-mindedness is surfacing too

You seem to think every decision made in today's world isn't hurting anyone. That's false. Take single mothers for example. They seem to think that they can raise a child all by themselves because they can. They should get a man(or at least some kind of partner), or not get seperated from the kid's father, and not put their selfish desires over the welfare of their child/children.

Originally Posted by WanderingKnight

So you're pulling back your comments on the "role of the woman" and the "role of the man"?

No. Where did you get that idea?

Originally Posted by WanderingKnight

So what you said at the beginning of that paragraph was just throwing words around. First you said, "no one should apply any role to any individual", but then you talk about actual gender roles?

How is that contradicting?

I think society should turn back around in some aspects. But I don't think it should be forced. And I definitely don't think one person should tell another person how to live. Maybe the opinion I have always came from assholes that would force the issue because they're insecure or something(like I give a crap about them), but I'm not like that. I believe in freedom just as much as you... I just believe that people should choose these lifestyles for themselves.

[WanderingKnight]

That's false. Take single mothers for example. They seem to think that they can raise a child all by themselves because they can. They should get a man(or at least some kind of partner), or not get seperated from the kid's father, and not put their selfish desires over the welfare of their child/children.

Okay, that's it. My mother raised me by herself, living in a single-room apartment, till I was 6 years old. She received economic support from my dad (such is the law here), but in practical terms, she was raising me all by herself. Why are you deducting that a mother raising a child alone will put her selfish desires over the child? What on earth makes you think that?

No. Where did you get that idea?

And it's not anyone's place to apply roles to individuals, so I have no comment on your family.

That should be enough :P I'm being redundant, I know, but you're being completely incoherent.

You seem to think every decision made in today's world isn't hurting anyone.

No, that's why I said "as long as it doesn't harm anyone". Let the woman work, let her stay home, let the husband take care of the children, let him work, let the gay couples marry, let them adopt children, in short, give them freedom. There's no proof that any of these things is actually harmful to anyone, not even to children. It's you who thinks that those decisions are actually altering the welfare of the society... while I think that the actual lack of freedom is what is affecting society more.

[Thewanderer]

Originally Posted by WanderingKnight

Okay, that's it. My mother raised me by herself, living in a single-room apartment, till I was 6 years old. She received economic support from my dad (such is the law here), but in practical terms, she was raising me all by herself. Why are you deducting that a mother raising a child alone will put her selfish desires over the child? What on earth makes you think that?

Well if you're gonna drag personal matters in... I was also raised by one parent that happens to be female. I didn't finish high school, I never had a driver's license till I was in my early 20s, and I never had a job to this day. I'm not blaming her for it all, but it would've helped if I had a man to teach me how to be independent.

Originally Posted by WanderingKnight

That should be enough :P I'm being redundant, I know, but you're being completely incoherent.

Believe me, I'm trying to explain this as best as I can, and not make it look so contradictory. I just don't know how to word it right. Sorry.

Originally Posted by WanderingKnight

No, that's why I said "as long as it doesn't harm anyone". Let the woman work, let her stay home, let the husband take care of the children, let him work, let the gay couples marry, let them adopt children, in short, give them freedom. There's no proof that any of these things is actually harmful to anyone, not even to children. It's you who thinks that those decisions are actually altering the welfare of the society... while I think that the actual lack of freedom is what is affecting society more.

That's what I'm saying too. Let them, it'd be wrong not to. But I still think that society would be better off if a few of them wake up on their own free will, that's all.

(note that I have no problem with homosexual couples)

[WanderingKnight]

I'm not blaming her for it all, but it would've helped if I had a man to teach me how to be independent.

What makes a man better suited to teach you independence than a woman? Perhaps your mother wasn't good enough for you, but your mother isn't everyone's mother. Don't go making unnecessary generalizations (which is what prejudices are all about anyways).

That's what I'm saying too. Let them, it'd be wrong not to. But I still think that society would be better off if a few of them wake up on their own free will, that's all.

"Wake up"... That's outright insulting

[Thewanderer]

Originally Posted by WanderingKnight

What makes a man better suited to teach you independence than a woman? Perhaps your mother wasn't good enough for you, but your mother isn't everyone's mother. Don't go making unnecessary generalizations (which is what prejudices are all about anyways).

Uh... because it's a man?

Seriously though, it takes two to raise a good family. That's just what I believe.

Originally Posted by WanderingKnight

"Wake up"... That's outright insulting

I don't see it as insulting at all.

[WanderingKnight]

Uh... because it's a man?

Seriously though, it takes two to raise a good family. That's just what I believe.

See? This is where you fail. You don't provide any backing to that statement. There's nothing that says a woman alone cannot properly raise a child to be independent. Nothing at all. Don't take your own personal case as a justification, since an example doesn't prove anything.

I don't see it as insulting at all.

Then all those who don't "wake up" and do what you think they should want to do, are "asleep", which can be correlated to "not seeing the truth"?

Give me a break.

[Thewanderer]

Originally Posted by WanderingKnight

See? This is where you fail. You don't provide any backing to that statement. There's nothing that says a woman alone cannot properly raise a child to be independent. Nothing at all. Don't take your own personal case as a justification, since an example doesn't prove anything.

Fail? Fail at what?

I'm not trying to argue or prove anything. Just trying to give my opinion of everything. And I'm not failing to do that

Originally Posted by WanderingKnight

Then all those who don't "wake up" and do what you think they should want to do, are "asleep", which can be correlated to "not seeing the truth"?

Pretty much.

[WanderingKnight]

I'm not trying to argue or prove anything. Just trying to give my opinion of everything. And I'm not failing to do that

You fail at giving a solidly-articulated logical argument

Pretty much.

Which was what I meant by "insulting"

This is turning into a chit-chat and nothing is being added... All you did for the last few posts is to focus on a few words of my statements and you didn't address the full content. Guess I'm out of here again.

[Thewanderer]

Originally Posted by WanderingKnight

You fail at giving a solidly-articulated logical argument

If you know me, you'd know that I can hardly articulate anything.

And I'm not trying to argue at all. I was attempting to be more understandable. I don't understand why you're trying to make me look like a failure at all...

Originally Posted by WanderingKnight

Which was what I meant by "insulting"

This is turning into a chit-chat and nothing is being added... All you did for the past posts is to focus on a few words of my statements and you didn't address the full content. Guess I'm out of here again.

What am I supposed to address?