[Anime-Only] Shippuden Episode 22-23 Discussion / Poll

[zanar]

Actually, I'm not entirely convinced that Sasori killed the 3rd Kazekage in a fight fair and square. I find it more likely done in an underhanded method. After all, if there was a fight, there would be noise, and the other Sand ninjas would have heard about it. I think it more likely that Sasori poisoned Sandaime when he wasn't looking out for it.

And if Sasori did kill the 3rd Kazekage this way, then it debunks the idea that he's the strongest Sand ninja ever because he didn't win in a fair fight.

[Rurik]

Originally Posted by zanar

And if Sasori did kill the 3rd Kazekage this way, then it debunks the idea that he's the strongest Sand ninja ever because he didn't win in a fair fight.

Fair Fight? what do you think these guys are? Power rangers?

These are ninja their essence lies in deceiving their opponent. They are supposed to play dirty (specially puppet masters); if Sandaime Kazekage fell to a trick of Sasori, then its means Sasori was good enough Ninja to deceive the strongest Shinobi from the Sand.

Regarding potential noise in a probable fight between them, its really moot, the fight could had happened in a deserted place….the village is in the desert you know…

[Kazuma77]

Originally Posted by Rurik

Fair Fight? what do you think these guys are? Power rangers?

i almost fell of my chair when i read this

[ghstwrld]

Originally Posted by zanar

Actually, I'm not entirely convinced that Sasori killed the 3rd Kazekage in a fight fair and square. I find it more likely done in an underhanded method. After all, if there was a fight, there would be noise, and the other Sand ninjas would have heard about it. I think it more likely that Sasori poisoned Sandaime when he wasn't looking out for it.

And if Sasori did kill the 3rd Kazekage this way, then it debunks the idea that he's the strongest Sand ninja ever because he didn't win in a fair fight.

Deception, subterfuge, and artifice are the tricks of the ninja trade.

[Rahan]

Originally Posted by ghstwrld

Deception, subterfuge, and artifice are the tricks of the ninja trade.

But treason isn't. And there is nothing more here.

[Rurik]

Originally Posted by Rahan

But treason isn't. And there is nothing more here.

First, you are impliying this is the case, but we don’t know if it was a treason or not, after all Sasori said Sandaime was his most difficult acquisition (so is not as simple as people are trying to make it look like).

Second if there were a treason from Sasori towards the Sandaime, then it was Sandime bad at not sensing he was going to get deceived by a comrade - If Sandaime could not sense the Treason then this fall under the category of Sasori tricking Sandaime as a any Ninja would do, in other words Backstabbing in form of treason also falls under the category of deceiving or playing dirty tricks..heck, these are the type of assassinations made by Kunoichi (at least the real concept of it), they get sentimentally close to the Male to Kill them, get information.

[zanar]

Sasori was a prodigy, and as such, it wouldn't be too hard to imagine that Sandaime would take a liking to him, possibly taking him under his wing. If so, then Sasori would be trusted by Sandaime, making any killing alot easier.

Also, to suggest that nobody heard them because they were in the desert is silly; it is precisely because it was in the desert that it's quiet, and thus sound would travel alot easier. The only way this would be wrong would be if Sasori managed to get Sandaime out in the desert for some unknown reason, and Sandaime agreed.

But let's be realistic. The scroll used to summon Sandaime was a number 3. I know this is a bit of a leap of faith, but isn't it possible that Sandaime was the 3rd puppet to be made by him? And if such, who would believe that Sasori's first 2 puppets, that is, his parents puppets, would be able to defeat Sandaime? We have seen firsthand how effective Sandaime's techniques are against puppet users.

[KiNA]

=.= Sandaime is THE 3rd Kazekage... thus the number 3 on scroll.

[ghstwrld]

Originally Posted by zanar

Sasori was a prodigy, and as such, it wouldn't be too hard to imagine that Sandaime would take a liking to him, possibly taking him under his wing. If so, then Sasori would be trusted by Sandaime, making any killing alot easier.

Also, to suggest that nobody heard them because they were in the desert is silly; it is precisely because it was in the desert that it's quiet, and thus sound would travel alot easier. The only way this would be wrong would be if Sasori managed to get Sandaime out in the desert for some unknown reason, and Sandaime agreed.

But let's be realistic. The scroll used to summon Sandaime was a number 3. I know this is a bit of a leap of faith, but isn't it possible that Sandaime was the 3rd puppet to be made by him? And if such, who would believe that Sasori's first 2 puppets, that is, his parents puppets, would be able to defeat Sandaime? We have seen firsthand how effective Sandaime's techniques are against puppet users.

I'm fairly certain the 3 indicated that the puppet was the 3rd kazekage.

*lol beaten.

[wingdarkness]

LMMFAO...3's company...

[Kyu410]

I wonder if Gaara ever even knew about the Iron Sand.

[KiNA]

No.. I really meant Kazekage.. its the sand's village sandaime.. Hokage is leaf's village leader.

the 3rd Hokage died to Orochimaru. the 3rd Kazekage died to Sasori. Both are called Sandaime.

Technically Gaara is Godaime .. Like Tsunade obaasama

[Kyu410]

Originally Posted by Kira_Naruto

No.. I really meant Kazekage.. its the sand's village sandaime.. Hokage is leaf's village leader.

My fault. I just realized what you meant so I edited my post.

[Rurik]

Originally Posted by zanar

Sasori was a prodigy, and as such, it wouldn't be too hard to imagine that Sandaime would take a liking to him, possibly taking him under his wing. If so, then Sasori would be trusted by Sandaime, making any killing alot easier.

That’s sounds familiar…hmm, yes: Orochimaru and Sandaime; and that did not stop Sandaime to discover Oro before it was too late.

And Sandaime had a lot of linking towards Oro because of his genius, but Sandaime never turned a blind eye on Oro, reason why he did not choose Oro to be the Yondaime.

Also, to suggest that nobody heard them because they were in the desert is silly; it is precisely because it was in the desert that it's quiet, and thus sound would travel alot easier. The only way this would be wrong would be if Sasori managed to get Sandaime out in the desert for some unknown reason, and Sandaime agreed.

Yes.. Exactly how they heard when Sasori woop Kankuros butt….ohh wait…they did not…bottom line is, you are making it look as if Sasori style of fighting is the same as Dedidara style of fighting which is based on loud explosions, the puppet fighters base themselves heavily on tricks, booby-trap and poisons to defeat their opponent, and not on loud Jutsus; not to mention, Different from Sandaime Kazekage, Sasori has attacks that can kill you with just a single scratch.

And remember than another Kazekage was killed in the outskirt of the village, and people took notice of this weeks later.

But let's be realistic. The scroll used to summon Sandaime was a number 3. I know this is a bit of a leap of faith, but isn't it possible that Sandaime was the 3rd puppet to be made by him? And if such, who would believe that Sasori's first 2 puppets, that is, his parents puppets, would be able to defeat Sandaime? We have seen firsthand how effective Sandaime's techniques are against puppet users.

It really doesn’t matter how Sasori fought Sandaime, my point here is to illustrate that just because Sasori needed to use tricks, or to play dirty on Sandaime is not an indication that Sasori was/is weaker than Sandaime, it only showed that Sasori was good enough or slick enough to do so. a puppet master Strength lies basically on deceiving his opponent, see Kankuros fight In the Chuni exam, Vs Shino and vs. Sakon to have an Idea of what I’m talking about.

[shaselai]

the episodes gave some info on how sasori's parents came to be doll's - the manga never really mentioned and i thought somehow Sasori wanted "perfection" and killed his parents and made dolls of them... I hope the anime will show why he defected - i mean he was a loner but that shouldn't be a reason to betray the sand should it? If anything else he should be aiming for Kakashi and the Leaf.

[itachi29al]

Originally Posted by shaselai

the episodes gave some info on how sasori's parents came to be doll's - the manga never really mentioned and i thought somehow Sasori wanted "perfection" and killed his parents and made dolls of them... I hope the anime will show why he defected - i mean he was a loner but that shouldn't be a reason to betray the sand should it? If anything else he should be aiming for Kakashi and the Leaf.

Sasori never killed his parents, it is stated in both the manga and the anime white fang killed his father and it is assumed his mother fell in the same battle.Although i think in the manga the puppets he was using were human puppets of his parents, not puppets made to look like them as suggested in the anime.

[Willowwhisp]

Originally Posted by itachi29al

Sasori never killed his parents, it is stated in both the manga and the anime white fang killed his father and it is assumed his mother fell in the same battle.Although i think in the manga the puppets he was using were human puppets of his parents, not puppets made to look like them as suggested in the anime.

I thought the anime did imply/clarify they were made from Sasori's parents. In particular, the puppets used Chakra (and it was noted that that was the significant advantage of human puppets).

[0TaKu0]

Originally Posted by Willowwhisp

I thought the anime did imply/clarify they were made from Sasori's parents.

Firslty, aside from the fact that the anime is not cannon, so whatever it implies does not matter if it is not in the Manga. Secondly, the anime did no such thing as imply/clarify they were made from sasori's parents. However, I shall humor your post.

There was an obvious flashback in the anime where Chiyo takes young Sasori in to the room filled with reject / defective puppets that were created by the Sand Ninja, and asks him to use anything in the room as he sees fit to create his own puppets (at this point is when he uses those parts to create "Father and Mother"). It was clearly stated by Sasori how he creates his human puppets, he needs the actual bodies, skins them / guts them like a fish / washes out the blood etc . . . I highly doubt he did this to his mother and father while he was still a kid and considered "good". (Lets not forget how the village and chiyo would see him after that)

There is also Chiyo's sentence which is said to Sakura,

Chiyo: Human puppets made from real flesh are different from the -normal puppets like- his father and mother.

Chiyo is calling the father and mother normal puppets.

Aside from all these reasons, once again Manga > Anime.

In particular, the puppets used Chakra (and it was noted that that was the significant advantage of human puppets).

Actually the line is ,

"They are made to retain the chakra they had when they were still alive and going by that, he is still able to make use of any techniques they had when they were still alive."

It clearly doesn’t state anything about puppets not being able to use chakra, it is specifically directed toward the advantage of a Human puppet,its complexity, and its ability to retain their own original chakra. The chakra shield that mother and father used is obviously a "puppet weapon" much like shooting poison needles, or gas. Better yet, an even better example is when all those hands come out of "The Third Kazekage" puppet, if you didn’t notice when the forearms open up, there are symbols written on the inside, I would imagine it was seals for a summoning that caused all those arms to pop out. Also lets not forget the fact that chiyo's false arm also had the chakra shield, which definitely confirms (to me) it is more a puppet technique rather then something specific to a human puppet.

The other thing is Sasori's line,

Sasori: I see you've been messing with them. The Chakra shield, seems that he's been upgraded since he last played with me.

All signs point to, normal puppet being upgraded "attached" with a chakra shield.

Any way, let me stop here because I'm taking this way more farther then I should. You see, your point was completely defeated when I stated Anime is not cannon. However, Just incase you still feel like it was implied in the anime that "Father and Mother" are human puppets (which it obviously did not imply at all as I pointed out), basically it doesn’t matter because Manga > Anime.