What do people like about Turn A Gundam?

[brightman]

Originally Posted by avmoghe

Uh.. no. This was not stupidity of politicians, this was stupidity of the writer (Tomino). No Federation should have been stupid enough to hand over Axis to Char.... not unless the Federation members were actually replaced by real life monkeys.

You'd be surprised how far corrupt politicians can get in their stupidity.

[avmoghe]

Originally Posted by brightman

Except Tomino's Gundam aren't about family life, nor do they focus much on personal relationships. Those are the biggies. You have to understand that soap operas aren't just a definition. They are a style of storytelling. Anyone who watches Tomino and soap operas regularly should be able to distinguish the two. Its not quite as easy for Seed and Seed Destiny.

What? If you remove the war and fighting, Tomino's Gundams certainly DO focus on personal relationships.....you're telling me we don't get to see the interactions between the crew of the main ship of the show?

Anyway, you can't remove war from Tomino's Gundams (save for Turn A, but that's styled more like a historical drama anyway). War is essentially what defines the plot, the characters, and their situations. For most of Tomino's Gundams, relationships do not change the characters, wars do. That automatically means Tomino Gundam != soap. I agree they are "coming of age" stories though. But who says those are soaps?

Yup you cannot remove the war and fighting from Gundam... which was my point (technically only a bit different since I was saying that the war and resulting fighting is the primary reason to watch the show).

Wars change characters and hence it is not a soap opera? I do not follow this logic. They characters are IN a war with people dying left and right.. it is of course logical that it has a more significant effect than a fight with a girlfriend...

Considering that the show's characters spent the first half of the show making fun of that trait, it should have at least hit you then... But then again, if you don't get it, you don't get it... Can't help you with that...

Sure, they were mocking the Gundam, but I don't see why this is supposed to lead me to believe that the show's plot and characters should not be expected to act with the least bit of sense...

Ever watched the Italian movie, "Life is Beautiful"? That's a comedy about the real Holocaust. Yes, its a comedy, and an Academy Award winning one at that (meaning that it's not just something tasteless). So think again.

Whoa whoa.. hold up. I think we have some miscommunication here. I've never seen this movie, but do not mistake "comedy" with "not to be taken seriously". If you've seen the movie Lock, Stock, and Two Smoking barrels, you could see that the movie was a laugh riot.. but the characters still didn't act like they were idiots.

When I say "not to be taken seriously", I mean "do not expect logic in this show"...... shows like FLCL, for example..

Anyway, be glad you haven't seen G Gundam yet. You'd have a hay day with that one, with your completely serious attitude on things.

I've already watched this (unfortunately). I couldn't bare to watch after six episodes.... I simply did not have that kind of willpower.

Incidentally, I do recall speaking with you about ZZ Gundam and the crazy characters with you..(random chick who got sexually excited for no reason). That show was still far better than Turn A.

[quote]

Originally Posted by brightman

You'd be surprised how far corrupt politicians can get in their stupidity.

Call me an optimist.... I refuse the belive politicians who live on earth with their families....would give an asteroid to the main who has already killed millions by dropping two other asteroids onto the earth. Their selfishness, if not their wisdom, should preclude this .....

[Matrim]

I have never been much of a Gundam fan (I have watched SEED. GSD and a dozen episodes of Zeta) or a mecha fan in general, yet I thoroughly enjoyed Turn A Gundam, although I am not sure exactly why. It probably had to do with the mecha designs which were a lot more appealling than just about any mecha I had seen in anime. The odd setting. The brilliant music. The atmosphere. The ani-war message - yes, of cours,e it's cliche but I think it was put forward in a very impressive fashion, often having quite an emotional impact on me. For instance, something so simple and on paper so silly as Loran using his Gundam to wash the bloodied clothes made for a stunnningly beautiful and emotional scene, IMHO of course. Or maybe it had to do with Diana Soriel being like 12819231938 times more interesting character than her counterpart Lacus of SEED (not that this is much of an achievement in itself, if you aks me) and with a supporting cast of intersting personalities (though I wish Keith and Fran Doll's stories were developed better). With Harry Ord being liek the avatar of coolness, yet staying human. OK, OK, enoughincoherent praise for now.

If you didn't feel the over-bearing passion that was the epic moon-battle with the visions of all Gundam shows being broadcasted via the dark technology then you don't have a pulse

Quoted for truth. It was a really great scene, even for someone for me who had'nt watched the older Gundam series.

And yes, the plot is full of holes and makes it hard to suspend disbelief, there were a few too many episodes and there were too many battles of the "OK, time's over, we shall resume our fight five episodes later because for some inexplicable reason we don't feel like fighting to win today".

As I said before, the teenage soap opera (what Gundam boils down to without the fighting and the war) is not up my alley

Then of course you wouldn't like Turn A in which the focus is clearly not on the battles. Doesn't mean the show is bad, though. And it certainly is not a soap opera (did you see the things you quoted from wikipedia like emphasis on families and sexual relationship set in a domestic interior?)...you could call it space opera, if you wish.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by avmoghe

I'm not claiming expressionism as a whole is meaningless.. I'm saying it is meaningless to this conversation. It's presence or lack there of cannot address boring mecha fighting, nor character stupidity... [no.. no subtlety (that I'm allegedly supposed to have missed) can make these atrocious fights acceptable.. ]

I don't think that you missed any subtlety; you just didn't like the tone of the fights.

Originally Posted by avmoghe

Fair enough. The thought of this Gundam series being some sort of a joke or parody certainly crossed my mind repeatedly (In fact, I was almost convinced when the militia turned retarded and started fighting to get off the ship). Given that they were talking about the holocaust of humanity with nanomachines, I chose to take the show seriously.....

I don't think that it's exactly a joke or parody, but the fight scenes in Turn A aren't exactly serious either. When you've got stuff like Turn A and Sochie's Kapool playing catch to attack a warship or the Kapool using something as goofy as the Gundam Hammer, it's quite obvious that they're not being entirely serious. Likewise, Corin and the Red Team are there just there to lighten the mood (although they're flexible enough to do more than just that), and Poe exists more or less just to get beat up in increasingly embarassing ways. I happen to like this kind of stuff, but everyone's opinion is going to differ.

By the way, I felt that the Militia was sort of retarded from the very beginning. Their incompetence (and that of every other fighting force) was sort of the point of the show.

Originally Posted by avmoghe

This may have to do with the above (me taking the show seriously), but the Kihel/Dianna switch was quite important and resulted in people's lives changing (ending, in some cases). I was quite literally left shocked when Kihel (sensibly) reminded Dianna of the possibility of them being caught... and Dianna in her wisdom said "we'll just apologize!"

All leaders have their peccadillos; and this happens to be Dianna's. She couldn't act out her wishes normally, and this represented her one chance of goofing off. Moreover, she didn't mean it to be permanent - she tried to exchange back at every opportunity until Kihel made her speech. I don't really mind this kind of thing since I happen to like this kind of juxtaposition, and because I feel that it was the first time that Dianna was an actual person rather than a two-dimensional figurehead.

Originally Posted by avmoghe

If these are the sort of decisions Dianna takes, I can fully understand this Agrippa fellow wanting to kill her....

Even with this kind of decision, she and Kihel are still the best leaders in Turn A (with the possible exception of Lily).

Originally Posted by avmoghe

Hm.... perhaps then I wouldn't be tempted to take the show seriously? If I knew it was a parody/light hearted fare going in, my outlook might have changed...

That isn't utterly true. It's possible to treat the dramatic moments seriously, and to take the lighter-hearted moments for what they are. After all, the same dichotomy holds for Victory.

Originally Posted by brightman

Eh? The only Gundam that really resembles a soap opera is Gundam Seed, and that's supposed to be your favorite. The Tomino-written Gundam are totally different animals...

While I wouldn't characterize it as a "soap opera", I get the feeling that avmoghe is referring to the fact that the Gundam TV shows tend to have very lightly plotted and meandering stories. And that there's often a disconnect between the events in any particular episode and the overall plot.

Originally Posted by brightman

Because really, the whole show is not just about the culmination of 20 years of Gundam, its also about Tomino giving the finger to the long established franchise and its hardcore fans (whom he dislikes).

Query: why is it that those same fans seem to fawn over everything the man says or does?

Originally Posted by avmoghe

And this is what I meant by Tomino continuing his "bad habit" of not following the rules of science fiction into Turn A. Why exactly does the Turn A shoot off random beams to protect Harry? Even Loran says he does not know what his machine is doing. Gundams and Mobile Suits should NEVER do anything like magically protecting a named character (Spare me the bs about "its a learning machine"...such a powerful beam should have gone off a thousand times before in the series instead of waiting till episode 40+)..

I agree. A lot of Tomino's plot events don't flow naturally from their antecedents; and he rarely even tries to explain the discrepancy in the actual show.

Originally Posted by Matrim

Quoted for truth. It was a really great scene, even for someone for me who had'nt watched the older Gundam series.

I don't know about that. I have watched the older Gundam shows, and I still felt that the revelation scene didn't have anywhere near the power that it could have had.

Originally Posted by Matrim

Then of course you wouldn't like Turn A in which the focus is clearly not on the battles.

Agreed. In fact, I wish that Turn A had fewer battles since many of them didn't really contribute all that much to the show itself.

[avmoghe]

Originally Posted by Matrim

And yes, the plot is full of holes and makes it hard to suspend disbelief, there were a few too many episodes and there were too many battles of the "OK, time's over, we shall resume our fight five episodes later because for some inexplicable reason we don't feel like fighting to win today".

And this is forgivable?

Then of course you wouldn't like Turn A in which the focus is clearly not on the battles. Doesn't mean the show is bad, though. And it certainly is not a soap opera (did you see the things you quoted from wikipedia like emphasis on families and sexual relationship set in a domestic interior?)...you could call it space opera, if you wish.

When someone says a show is "bad", it automatically means "in their opinion".. its cumbersome to keep specifiying this. You're making it sound like there is a universally accepted standard that precludes the show from being called "bad"... all we have are opinions...

I already addressed the issue with the interior... the fact that they are in a space war precludes that criteria from being upheld.

[Terrestrial Dream]

Seriously? You thought Turn A was the worst Gundam? I thought it was pretty good, the fight scene was decent and it was better then damn Seed where there were so many reused scene you thought you were watching the same battle over and over. Now you said about Fed being stupid in CCA however politician in prior to WW2 were way dumber then them and their action was similar to the politician in CCA. Now switch between Dianna and Kihel I really didn't had any problem with that it add interesting character development for both Kihel and Dianna. And if you want to talk about plot hole you should look at your beloved Seed it is full of them. I can't really talk about the character since it's been while I watched Turn A and I don't really remember them well. The side story was little weird and I thought they could have done it without them. The mech design was funky but it had it's own style. And do you even like Gundam in general? it seems that you really don't like most of them, and I can't believe you thought Destiny was better than some of the Gundam. In my opinion Destiny was the worst Gundam ever created it brought shame to Gundam name (I maybe over exaggerating little though).

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by hyperlion

Now you said about Fed being stupid in CCA however politician in prior to WW2 were way dumber then them and their action was similar to the politician in CCA.

Not really. While the pre-war politicians misread their counterparts, they had relatively good reasons for what they did.

Originally Posted by hyperlion

And do you even like Gundam in general? it seems that you really don't like most of them, and I can't believe you thought Destiny was better than some of the Gundam. In my opinion Destiny was the worst Gundam ever created it brought shame to Gundam name (I maybe over exaggerating little though).

Why do you find this surprising? As I noted above, Destiny is literally the second-most popular Gundam shows in the last twenty years: above Victory, G Gundam, Wing, Gundam X, and Turn A. Obviously, not everyone is going to prefer it over them, but there should be a fair number of people that do so. Besides, avmoghe's list is probably less weird than mine (admittedly, I'm not really a Gundam fan):

My favorites:
1. Victory - Lots of great moments and lots of bizzare/goofy moments. Easily the most enjoyment I had watching Gundam.
2. Turn A - Superb setting and good character interaction. The ending was a little weak, but it doesn't really detract from the whole.
3. Seed - Plenty of compelling drama marred by some bad writing. I found the characters very appealing.
4. Destiny - Flawed; but it still presented the most interesting ideas in Gundam. It made me think the most, and I like that.

Enjoyable:
5. Mobile Suit Gundam - A solid show; it has one of the best depictions of war in Gundam.
6. Gundam X - I liked the characters, but it doesn't really live up to its setting.
7. Zeta Gundam - A pretty decent show, but it's sort of dragged down by the ending and some of the directorial choices.
8. Gundam Wing - I thought that it was pretty bad, but I still liked it.

Not enjoyable:
9. ZZ Gundam - I didn't mind the beginning, but I hated the ending.
10. G Gundam - A pretty good show, but none of the characters worked for me.

I might as well add the shorter works:
1. 08th MS Team - Good atmosphere overall. The Shattering Mountain episodes were also some of the best episodes in Gundam. I even liked the last episode.
2. 0080 - A very interesting character piece. I especially liked the portrayal of the kids' reactions to the war.
3. Endless Waltz - Better than Wing. Dorothy and her eyebrows make the movie version better than the OVAs.
4. 0083 - Lots of eyecandy, but I don't think it has as much substance as it could have had. Nina Purpleton is my least favorite Gundam character.
5. Char's Counterattack - I didn't buy the ending at all.

[Matrim]

And this is forgivable?

No, of course not. I think we should send the scriptwriters to the electic chair...of course it is forgivable, isn't that kind of obvious from the rest of my post which is full of praise for the series? I was going to add something along the lines of "But then again Gundam SEED has its fair share of flaws and so does practically every movie, book or whatever" but I thought this more or less went without saying. If you want me to be more specific - having a main plotline which is full of holes is forgivable when you have interesting characters, setting and side stories and a gripping atmosphere. Creating that great of a main plot never really seems to have been Turn A Gundam's priority in the first place which of course is a lame excuse but I think that I can count on the fingers of one hand the anime series that have both great characters and great plot, so it's nothing that dramatic.

When someone says a show is "bad", it automatically means "in their opinion".. its cumbersome to keep specifiying this. You're making it sound like there is a universally accepted standard that precludes the show from being called "bad"... all we have are opinions...

I am all for subjectivity in regards to appreciation of any sort of art or entertainment. I meant that the lack of emphasis on fights doesn't automatically make Turn A Gundam bad just because it's Gundam and Gundams are supposed to be primarily about mecha fight. You can regard it as bad or trash or the worst Gundam ever as much as you want for all I care, I did'nt mean to imply no one can "prove" it's bad.

It's possible to treat the dramatic moments seriously, and to take the lighter-hearted moments for what they are.

Not just possible, I think it's obligatory if one wants to enjoy Turn A fully.

[dodgethis_sg]

Originally Posted by avmoghe

Uh.. no. This was not stupidity of politicians, this was stupidity of the writer (Tomino). No Federation should have been stupid enough to hand over Axis to Char.... not unless the Federation members were actually replaced by real life monkeys.

Yes it was stupid because he actually had the audacity to portray politicians who kept their promises.

[avmoghe]

Originally Posted by Matrim

No, of course not. I think we should send the scriptwriters to the electic chair...of course it is forgivable, isn't that kind of obvious from the rest of my post which is full of praise for the series? I was going to add something along the lines of "But then again Gundam SEED has its fair share of flaws and so does practically every movie, book or whatever" but I thought this more or less went without saying.

The question lies in the degree of flaws... not their presence. Let us focus on my stupidity of characters complaint....(since I imagine you'll say Turn A's fights were better than Seeds.... I have no idea how you could even mention any of the Turn A fights in the same sentence as Strike vs Aegis, or Freedom/Savior vs Druggies, or Freedom vs Providence.... but let's ignore this for now)

Point me to precisely what in Gundam Seed do you regard as utterly stupid as Dianna giving her power to an earthling? In seed terms, this is roughly equivalent to Patrick Zara handing over command to some natural he barely knows... or Azrael handing over command to some coordinator.

I am all for subjectivity in regards to appreciation of any sort of art or entertainment. I meant that the lack of emphasis on fights doesn't automatically make Turn A Gundam bad just because it's Gundam and Gundams are supposed to be primarily about mecha fight. You can regard it as bad or trash or the worst Gundam ever as much as you want for all I care, I did'nt mean to imply no one can "prove" it's bad.

In response to your first statement, "Yes" it does. Especially when the atrocious fights are backed up with absolute stupidity, irrlevant subplots, and Tomino's bad habits, it absolutely does automatically make the series bad.

Make no mistake, I present 3 main complaints, and several others ... I'm not calling it a bad show *just* based on the lack of action...

Originally Posted by hyperlion

Seriously? You thought Turn A was the worst Gundam? I thought it was pretty good, the fight scene was decent and it was better then damn Seed where there were so many reused scene you thought you were watching the same battle over and over. Now you said about Fed being stupid in CCA however politician in prior to WW2 were way dumber then them and their action was similar to the politician in CCA. Now switch between Dianna and Kihel I really didn't had any problem with that it add interesting character development for both Kihel and Dianna. And if you want to talk about plot hole you should look at your beloved Seed it is full of them. I can't really talk about the character since it's been while I watched Turn A and I don't really remember them well. The side story was little weird and I thought they could have done it without them. The mech design was funky but it had it's own style. And do you even like Gundam in general? it seems that you really don't like most of them, and I can't believe you thought Destiny was better than some of the Gundam. In my opinion Destiny was the worst Gundam ever created it brought shame to Gundam name (I maybe over exaggerating little though).

To you I pose the same question..... show me what in Gundam Seed compares to the utter stupidity of a leader handing over her power to an any for absolutely no freaking reason (Yes, I know the bullcrap reason was that she wanted to live with earth race.. blah blah blah.. its still stupid)

Kihel / Dianna switch is NOT a plothole.... it is stupidity of the highest order... I think this may even rival episode 39 of Monster (or some episode thereabouts).

I'm no Gundam fan (in terms of being a fanboy of the franchise). I've seen essentially everything the franchise has to offer... (no I will not watch G Gundam) I like Seed and the MSG movies as I've mentioned. Almost every other Gundam show was mediocre IMO.... Yes, I ranked Destiny above 2-3 other Gundam shows....

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by avmoghe

And? Is this some sort of anomaly? The rank thread mentioned earlier shows that Seed is selected as being their favorite by more people on this board than any other Gundam Series...It is certainly not restricted to this forum. You only need look at the series popularity in Japan, online ratings, many anime reviewers (One example: Chris Beveridge, the owner of www.animeondvd.com, has stated that he enjoyed Seed more than Zeta - the old school fan favorite)

Unfortunately that ranking suffers from the same flaw as websites like Anime News Network ranking system in that it unintentionally favours newer series. Since Gundam Seed was the first Gundam TV Series to air after the creation of this board it is likely to have been seen by the most people and thus will get more votes out of sheer name recognition. If somebody doesn't know what it is or hasn't seen it, they won't vote for it, and almost everybody I talk to these days seems to base their entire interpretation of Gundam and Sunrise as a whole off of Seed. So it's pretty clear that a substantial number of people are only familiar with Seed and aren't interested in the older hand drawn series for age and availability reasons and the statistic is therefore misleading. If it were a scientific poll where the participant was required to have seen all the Gundam series to vote then we'd have a different story here.

[wingdarkness]

Originally Posted by avmoghe

(Yes, I know the bullcrap reason was that she wanted to live with earth race.. blah blah blah.. its still stupid)

Yeah and if that's bullcrap to you then even what I'm not about to write is a waste of breath as your mindset on this is vastly different than the core opinions...

Dude you're thinking too linear and too hardlined...she forged a bond with the impostor and it was shown through her development with Harry Ord that she embodied the qualities Dianna herself had or wanted to have...Dianna wanted to live like the world she longed for in her sleep and the romanticizing experience of the man she met while there (Symbolism can trump practicality)...Some would say having a pink-haired idiot-savant captain a ship in the battle of Yachin Due is far dumber than the symbolism this storyline was trying to achieve...

Oh and while you're asking that incredibly silly question about what in SEED is stupider than the Dianna switch, hmmmmm....

Kira not dying in Strike
Mwu not dying in Strike
Strike's head blocking Dominion's main weapon
Milly falling for Dearka after wanting to murder him...
20 year old kid named Azreal being in control of basically the Earth's military cause he was pi$$ed some coordies beat him up when he was 7, so he wants them ALL dead...
Newtypes who aren't newtypes
SPAAAAAAAAAAAAACE WHAAAAAAAAALES!!!!!!


You simply missed the boat on Turn A and that's fine...It is a series far more grounded in themes, heritage, character development, and adventurous wonder...You went in hoping for a Soopa-cool mecha designs and a story fit for your less than ideal thinking of Gundam just being some toyline...So in-turn the series should resemble the same generic qualities as you feel are needed for something as pedestrian as Gundam?? ...People like you and 4tran to a lesser extent can watch these shows like mathematicians trying to solve the x variable or you can look at these things with a certain sense of passion and wonder for what Gundam is (Your not a fan or a fanboy so why would you understand some the more subtle expressionism that you want me to explain when it's easy to see and in nearly every episode?)...Turn A in actuality devoid of being a Gundam show still works on story alone, but it's the Gundam brand name and the competent desire this program had to tie all those stories of the legendary white mobile suit together that elevates it's appeal to many...It was suppose to be the final story that ties everything together...

avmoghe I kinda forgot who I was speaking too when I first responded, and your an alright fellow (Hell I've leeched many a Gundam show from your fserve in the past), but I think I have a read on what you seem to enjoy and it ain't really found in this genre...Switching sides, switching appearances, switching themes, switching roles, is a commonality found in so many G-series and your inability to compute the symbolism and or//artistic expression found in this show points to your very strict, logistical longings...Heck you even seem to think Gundam shows are so devoid of plot that one that actually has one is some strange occurrence not in line with your overview of never watching gundam for plot or characters (As if the consensus of Gundamites hopes you don't mind as we laff at that)...

You honestly wanted something outta Turn-A that it never wanted to or even tried to provide...So in-turn I guess you'll always have SEED to provide you with that straight-forward beam-spraying and plotless character dynamic that makes Gundam just a little more than a mediocre throwaway of a program for you...Based upon your conjecture and your overall opinions on Gundam in general, I understand completely why Turn-A and even Gundam for that matter is some bull$hit toy saga for you...So fans like me for instance, can see a little more meaning where you see frustration for lack of l33tness...

Spoiler for older quotes about the show I've made:

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

The best way to describe Turn A's action is, You're actually SURPRISED by it...When TurnX did what it did it floored me by how genius it was...Loren jumping outta the moon-river with the cloak covering his Gundam as he attacked surprised me...Nader equipping the Kapool with a detachable fist surprised me...The little things in this series is what makes it so epic and so able to appreciate...

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

That's what makes me scratch my head...Turn A has lots of action...It might not be per se actual Gundams fighting, but action is action...(Other than the first 10-15 episodes when the story and world is being set) I never had the feeling while watching that there isn't enuff action...There's action nearly every episode if not every other episode...From the time Loren and company search for the Zaergtracker (sp?) until the end of the series there is action all the time...

----------------------
One thing about Turn A that is so brilliant is the way Tomino mix-matches or redefines cultural aspects based on time progression...I always found the arc where they search for the mass driver in the tribal grounds great...It was like Tomino mixed the cultural aspects of Indians (or Native Amerians) with Egyptian historical elements...You have these people who seem Indian, but they have pyramids, and underground maze-ways like Egyptians...also fight with swords in front of former kings like Egytians...It's like a cultural smattering that could likely take place given the thousands of years of hiatus on Earth...It just seems almost logical the way he presents the world...and when you already have countless shows under your belt it has to be tuff to re-create a fresh scenario (especially in the context of your own Gundam franchise)...

[avmoghe]

Originally Posted by Kaioshin_Sama

Unfortunately that ranking suffers from the same flaw as websites like Anime News Network ranking system in that it unintentionally favours newer series. Since Gundam Seed was the first Gundam TV Series to air after the creation of this board it is likely to have been seen by the most people and thus will get more votes out of sheer name recognition. If somebody doesn't know what it is or hasn't seen it, they won't vote for it, and almost everybody I talk to these days seems to base their entire interpretation of Gundam and Sunrise as a whole off of Seed. So it's pretty clear that a substantial number of people are only familiar with Seed and aren't interested in the older hand drawn series for age and availability reasons and the statistic is therefore misleading. If it were a scientific poll where the participant was required to have seen all the Gundam series to vote then we'd have a different story here.

This is not entirely accurate... You can see what people thought of Destiny. And Seed and Turn A were successive series, so there the year difference there should be quite minimal.

Also, this is why I pointed to the animenfo (also anidb by the way) polls... which have nothing to do with how many people have seen the series.. but simply take the average of the available votes....

Should these polls not work the the opposite way? Only hardcore fans interested in the series would go seek out old series, and consequently, their ratings should be higher. Not a single one of these shows Seed being beaten by any other series.

Again, the purpose of this is not to argue that mass appreciation is true quality of a show...it is merely to show that liking Seed is quite common...

Dude you're thinking too linear and too hardlined...she forged a bond with the impostor and it was shown through her development with Harry Ord that she embodied the qualities Dianna herself had or wanted to have...Dianna wanted to live like the world she longed for in her sleep and the romanticizing experience of the man she met while there (Symbolism can trump practicality)...Some would say having a pink-haired idiot-savant captain a ship in the battle of Yachin Due is far dumber than the symbolism this storyline was trying to achieve...

Symbolism can never EVER take precedence over simple (emphasis on simple) logic or common sense... Symbolism cannot take precedence over 2+2 being 4. A queen, (that shis show tried its hardest to convince me actually cared about her subjects) should NEVER have the balls to abandon her people in time of war and hand over her authority to one of the enemy.... If you think this is less dumb than having a genetically enhanced girl command ships, you are quite simply wrong..

Oh and while you're asking that incredibly silly question about what in SEED is stupider than the Dianna switch, hmmmmm....

Not a single one of these is as stupid as a leader abandoning her people and handing over authority to an enemy.... not one.. Hell, not a single of these flaws is even stupidity to begin with..

These are flaws yes.. but not stupidity in the extreme by any means...

Kira not dying in Strike

This is not stupidity.. this is the "named character" surviving phenomena we've been seeing since ... the beginning of Gundam.

Mwu not dying in Strike

He did die in Seed... Destiny is when he was revived. Again, this is more of the same crap as the Kira incident. This is not character stupidity, this is people being brought back to life/left alive due to popularity...

Strike's head blocking Dominion's main weapon

Not even related to stupidity... A suit partially blocking a beam certainly does not compare to the Dianna situation..

Milly falling for Dearka after wanting to murder him...

Fantastic.. now you're absolutely reaching. GS isn't the first show to turn enemies into lovers, and will not be the last.

20 year old kid named Azreal being in control of basically the Earth's military cause he was pi$$ed some coordies beat him up when he was 7, so he wants them dead...

I'm not even going to respond to this....Blue Cosmos picks extremist and radical 20 year old to lead them. Nothing wrong here... not even out of the realm of realism.

Newtypes who aren't newtypes
SPAAAAAAAAAAAAACE WHAAAAAAAAALES!!!!!!

Completely minor... and essentailly could be eliminated.


You obviously do not understand what I mean by "stupidity in the extreme"... We aren't talking about people escaping with their lives....(Char, Rosamia, that one other chick in ZZ).... we aren't talking about retarded newtype miracles.... we aren't talking about Seed eyes for the cast.... we aren't talking about non-newtypes exhibiting newtype traits for no reason... we aren't talking about dumbass strategies by armies....We aren't talking about Yazzan being turned into a moron....We aren't talking about women getting sexually excited by mobile suits.....We aren't talking about Tomino's half assed defections to enemies (ala Reccoa, random ghosts switching sides for no reason).... We aren't talking about Gundam Wing boys surviving when they should not.....Hell, we aren't even talking about handing over Axis to Char...

We are talking about stupidity so extreme that a director should not even have considered it. As I said above, we are talking about something like Patrick Zara handing over power to a natural.... something SO completely idiotic and nonsensical, that the director should be SHOT for even thinking about it.

Or, something like the Earth Alliance officers broadcasting their military intelligence all over the Earth for everyone to see...
Or something like Char saying "screw Earth", I'm going to nuke a few colonies....
Or Amuro just saying....screw it.. I'm just going to kill everyone onboard the white base....

We are NOT talking about general Gundam flaws... which is what you have listed above for Seed.

You simply missed the boat on Turn A and that's fine...It is a series far more grounded in themes, heritage, character development, and adventurous wonder...You went in hoping for a Soopa-cool mecha designs and a story fit for your less than ideal thinking of Gundam just being some toyline...So in-turn the series should resemble the same generic qualities as you feel are needed for something as pedestrian as Gundam?? ...People like you and 4tran to a lesser extent can watch these shows like mathematicians trying to solve the x variable or you can look at these things with a certain sense of passion and wonder for what Gundam is (Your not a fan or a fanboy so why would you understand some the more subtle expressionism that you want me to explain when it's easy to see and in nearly every episode?)...Turn A in actuality devoid of being a Gundam show still works on story alone, but it's the Gundam brand name and the competent desire this program had to tie all those stories of the legendary white mobile suit together that elevates it's appeal to many...It was suppose to be the final story that ties everything together...

I'm not sure if there's anything I can respond to here... as I've said before, I do not look for plot in Gundam since not a single franchise entry is worth watching for the plot.

In either case, look at what this has lead to....You've been reduced to pointing out flaws in Seed without actually directly responding to my complaints... The only real response I've heard from you is "ignore those complaints, look for the supposedly important symbolism"....

avmoghe I kinda forgot who I was speaking too when I first responded, and your an alright fellow (Hell I've leeched many a Gundam show from your fserve in the past), but I think I have a read on what you seem to enjoy and it ain't really found in this genre...Switching sides, switching appearances, switching themes, switching roles, is a commonality found in so many G-series and your inability to compute the symbolism and or//artistic expression found in this show points to your very strict, logistical longings...Heck you even seem to think Gundam shows are so devoid of plot that one that actually has one is some strange occurrence not in line with your overview of never watching gundam for plot or characters (As if the consensus of Gundamites hopes you don't mind as we laff at that)...

I suggest watching the Wire.... a perfect representation of what I look for when I watch a show for plotting.

[wingdarkness]

Originally Posted by avmoghe

Symbolism can never EVER take precedence over simple (emphasis on simple) logic or common sense... Symbolism cannot take precedence over 2+2 being 4. A queen, (that shis show tried its hardest to convince me actually cared about her subjects) should NEVER have the balls to abandon her people in time of war and hand over her authority to one of the enemy.... If you think this is less dumb than having a genetically enhanced girl command ships, you are quite simply wrong..

If you can't come to the realization that Dianna sincerely felt that Kiehl Heim had become the leader she couldn't be then you'll never accept it...Less you forget the whole time they had switched places Keihl Heim was making natural decisions on behalf of Dianna that were in line with what she wanted but didn't necessarily have the heart for...Even Harry acknowledged her decision making (Harry the top advisor to the Queen who knew of this signed off on this because he believed in her when he didn't quite know she was an impostor--If Harry thought that was crap he never would have allowed it)...

Heim was also the female companion of one Guin Lineford and was quite privy to negotiations with earth and space and the dynamics that differed between them...Just being a wallflower to Lineford's knowledge gave her perspective (and that's ignoring the physical and emotional attachment she felt for Dianna after they shared stories about her life on earth prior and up to meeting Will Game (I know soap opera bull$hit to you, but sets up a deeper connections for others)...The symbolism is found in the fact that these two girls looked just alike and each was giving the other a chance to tap into the part of their personality that was never quite satisfied (Dianna's longing for just being a normal earthling and Keihl Heim's desire to find a future beyond that of just a pretty face who didn't really have a role in the world)..That means it wasn't just a chance but perhaps a fated meaning (Dullindal didn't get Kiel Heim a tit-job and pink extensions to look like Lacus Clyne, These two woman looked naturally just alike--there was a deeper meaning for their fated encounter...If you can't jump that hurdle then that's what it is...I almost feel foolish for trying to shed light on this when you said you don't watch Gundam for plot or character, just for_____________????


Oh BTW I find STRIKE's head blocking a positron blast with the pilot surviving, and a pink haired pop-singer commanding a battle fleet far stupider than anything you're talking about (Oh but wait since Kira and Mwu are brought back because of popularity then somehow that's not under your stupid heading? Your whole ideology on this subject is topsy-tervy)...Your definition of flaw has flaws...I also am a very avid veiwer of HBO's The Wire owning all four season's on DVD...But let me share with you, the Wire is a social commentary transposing 3 layers of dynamics inwhich The Police examine the streets and the streets examine the police while the governmental aspect of the story shows to be as corrupt as the criminals they target and how they all function together creating an endless cycle of dysfunctionality...Deep concept I know, but the plot's not that deep, it's the characterizations, reality based concepts, and the palpable moral dilemmas' that make this show tick...Cops try to get the bad-guys as the governmental based system screws each side up (While the viewer desides what's B & W and what's grey) --That's the basic plot...It's not deep, it's just executed amazingly (What you think because characters like Brotha Malzone comeback to finish a plotline from a season before that's deep plotting?--That's basic coherent plotting)...

Season 1: Introduction into the streets and the nuanced cat and mouse game that is the drug-game

Season 2: Solve who killed the dead strippers, find the greek

Season 3: Find a way to curve crime by creating a test sample to legalize drugs alla Hamsterdam

Season 4: See how the allure of pressure from the streets shapes and takes kids with the prospect of failing school systems being an integral part of that problem...

The plot is very straight forward, they just analyze the systematic levels that keep each entity (streets, Police, government) engaging one another...It doesn't hurt that the cast is amazing and they create a gritty and desperate world far closer to the one we actually live in(Rather than the stereotypical world most dramas try to convey)...But I digress as this and Gundam are literally worlds apart in everything under the sun...If you're searching for this in anime you might wanna shelve anything with a big robot on the DVD cover...

[brightman]

Originally Posted by avmoghe

What? If you remove the war and fighting, Tomino's Gundams certainly DO focus on personal relationships.....you're telling me we don't get to see the interactions between the crew of the main ship of the show?

My point is you CAN'T remove the war and fighting. Obviously you haven't got a clue what soap operas are, because you think any sort of interaction would make it one. Please watch a real one before bringing this point back. And no, using a definition from Wikipedia ain't gonna cut it.

Originally Posted by avmoghe

Whoa whoa.. hold up. I think we have some miscommunication here. I've never seen this movie, but do not mistake "comedy" with "not to be taken seriously". If you've seen the movie Lock, Stock, and Two Smoking barrels, you could see that the movie was a laugh riot.. but the characters still didn't act like they were idiots.

But the guy in the movie I mentioned did act like an idiot. And the subject matter WAS the Holocaust. And you're supposed to laugh at his antics and still feel sorry for him... So case closed.

Call me an optimist.... I refuse the belive politicians who live on earth with their families....would give an asteroid to the main who has already killed millions by dropping two other asteroids onto the earth. Their selfishness, if not their wisdom, should preclude this .....

Umm... How? They just got their dough, they have their connections. They can easily procure a ticket to space for their family and friends (like what Adenauer Paraya does in the beginning of the movie).

The whole point was to show how selfish and evil politicians can get. And this wasn't the first time they acted this way in Gundam either.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

While I wouldn't characterize it as a "soap opera", I get the feeling that avmoghe is referring to the fact that the Gundam TV shows tend to have very lightly plotted and meandering stories. And that there's often a disconnect between the events in any particular episode and the overall plot.

But the way Gundam shows and soap operas meander are different. Soap operas meander as a way to keep people addicted to the show, using unexpected plot twists and insane plot devices... Tomino's Gundams generally just introduce a side character and then kill him/her off to show the cruelty of war. The methodology is completely different.

Query: why is it that those same fans seem to fawn over everything the man says or does?

Tomino fans do that. Still, the man is an eccentric.

But anyway, he's admitted that the reason why there are no Newtypes or colonies in the show are all due to this "dislike" of Gundam fans and the way they treat everything so seriously and literally. Sort of like what avmoghe is doing in this thread.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

People like you and 4tran to a lesser extent can watch these shows like mathematicians trying to solve the x variable or you can look at these things with a certain sense of passion and wonder for what Gundam is

Please stop trying to make up reasons for why people may have different opinions to yourself - you've never been particularly good at it, and it looks rather silly.

Originally Posted by brightman

Umm... How? They just got their dough, they have their connections. They can easily procure a ticket to space for their family and friends (like what Adenauer Paraya does in the beginning of the movie).

The whole point was to show how selfish and evil politicians can get. And this wasn't the first time they acted this way in Gundam either.

While politicians can certainly be selfish and evil, they tend not to conciously do things that would erode their personal power base either. This felt like something that could have been handled much better than it was.

Originally Posted by brightman

But the way Gundam shows and soap operas meander are different. Soap operas meander as a way to keep people addicted to the show, using unexpected plot twists and insane plot devices... Tomino's Gundams generally just introduce a side character and then kill him/her off to show the cruelty of war. The methodology is completely different.

I agree; that's one of the reasons why I wouldn't call it soap operatic.

Originally Posted by brightman

But anyway, he's admitted that the reason why there are no Newtypes or colonies in the show are all due to this "dislike" of Gundam fans and the way they treat everything so seriously and literally.

That's hilarious! "I hate you guys - now give me money!"

[wingdarkness]

Originally Posted by 4tran

Please stop trying to make up reasons for why people may have different opinions to yourself - you've never been particularly good at it, and it looks rather silly.

Sorry to lump you in there, you and he seem to have a similiar viewing style//defensive argument is all...Oh and I am kinda good at it ^^...Atleast that's what people rep me and say...

[avmoghe]

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

If you can't come to the realization that Dianna sincerely felt that Kiehl Heim had become the leader she couldn't be then you'll never accept it...

Errr....Do you understand what we are talking about? We are talking about how wise it is for a leader to hand over her leadership to a member of the enemy. Whether Dianna felt Kihel later turned into a leader is irrelevant.....she should never have had to balls to put her people at risk in the first place. This is roughly equivalent to Patrick Zara picking a natural to give all of Zaft's command power to a natural, and then praying like hell that the natural hates other naturals as well.... Do you not comprehend how insanely stupid this is?

Less you forget the whole time they had switched places Keihl Heim was making natural decisions on behalf of Dianna that were in line with what she wanted but didn't necessarily have the heart for...Even Harry acknowledged her decision making (Harry the top advisor to the Queen who knew of this signed off on this because he believed in her when he didn't quite know she was an impostor--If Harry thought that was crap he never would have allowed it)...

Completely and utterly irrelevant... This is foolish "ends justifying the means" logic... The Queen (one so loving as supposedly Dianna) should never have had the balls to even contemplate abandoning her people in a war with an earthrace member at the top.

Heim was also the female companion of one Guin Lineford and was quite privy to negotiations with earth and space and the dynamics that differed between them...Just being a wallflower to Lineford's knowledge gave her perspective (and that's ignoring the physical and emotional attachment she felt for Dianna after they shared stories about her life on earth prior and up to meeting Will Game (I know soap opera bull$hit to you, but sets up a deeper connections for others)...The symbolism is found in the fact that these two girls looked just alike and each was giving the other a chance to tap into the part of their personality that was never quite satisfied (Dianna's longing for just being a normal earthling and Keihl Heim's desire to find a future beyond that of just a pretty face who didn't really have a role in the world)..That means it wasn't just a chance but perhaps a fated meaning (Dullindal didn't get Kiel Heim a tit-job and pink extensions to look like Lacus Clyne, These two woman looked naturally just alike--there was a deeper meaning for their fated encounter...If you can't jump that hurdle then that's what it is...I almost feel foolish for trying to shed light on this when you said you don't watch Gundam for plot or character, just for_____________????

More irrelevant drivel.... read above two paragraphs. I could not care less about the Symbolism....what Dianna did was stupidity in the extreme...

Oh BTW I find STRIKE's head blocking a positron blast with the pilot surviving, and a pink haired pop-singer commanding a battle fleet far stupider than anything you're talking about (Oh but wait since Kira and Mwu are brought back because of popularity then somehow that's not under your stupid heading? Your whole ideology on this subject is topsy-tervy)...Your definition of flaw has flaws...

What's topsy turvy? A genetically enhanced human commanding fleets is a flaw? Or does the fact that she is a pop singer with pink hair automatically deprive her of her intelligence and moral values? People surviving is nothing new... You're going to act like technology has always behaved in a consistent way in Gundam? How many times have we seen people survive explosions they should not? How many times have we see Tomino completely ignore science fiction rules and have his technology do whatever the hell he wanted to make it do?

At this point I'm quite sure you're arguing for no reason.... we aren't talking about flaws Gundam has been filled with for the last 20+ years... we are talking about stupidity that should not be seen in any anime.. let alone Gundam. Not a single anime Gundam show that I've seen.. NOT ONE.... has committed the stupidity of this Dianna/Kihel switch. I've seen the flaws you mention throughout Gundam.... and not a single one of them represents absolute retarded-ness on the part of a well love leader character.

I also am a very avid veiwer of HBO's The Wire owning all four season's on DVD...But let me share with you, the Wire is a social commentary transposing 3 layers of dynamics inwhich The Police examine the streets and the streets examine the police while the governmental aspect of the story shows to be as corrupt as the criminals they target and how they all function together creating an endless cycle of dysfunctionality...Deep concept I know, but the plot's not that deep, it's the characterizations, reality based concepts, and the palpable moral dilemmas' that make this show tick...Cops try to get the bad-guys as the governmental based system screws each side up (While the viewer desides what's B & W and what's grey) --That's the basic plot...It's not deep, it's just executed amazingly (What you think because characters like Brotha Malzone comeback to finish a plotline from a season before that's deep plotting?--That's basic coherent plotting)...

No... deep plotting (to me) is the sheer complexity of the plotting. Show me a single Gundam (anime, for that matter) that shows the absolute brilliance of the plotting in Season 1's case...

If you're automatically defining 'deep plot' to imply "must have random symbolism that you believe you see", I certainly am not willing to argue about it. Arguing about something as abstract as symbolism (and art in general) is a waste of time IMO. (Hell, you can search for the shows reviews yourself and find plenty of people claiming it has a deep plot) I only presented the Wire as an example of a show I watch for the plot...

My point is you CAN'T remove the war and fighting. Obviously you haven't got a clue what soap operas are, because you think any sort of interaction would make it one. Please watch a real one before bringing this point back. And no, using a definition from Wikipedia ain't gonna cut it.

I'm perfectly aware of what soap opera's are.. I don't need you or your claim that the Wikipedia definition is inaccurate to point me in the right direction. (And no, we don't need Bold and the Beautiful affair-at-every-turn crap for a show to be classified as a soap opera. If you need this kind of focus on romance to classify a show as a soap opera, it is you who needs to adjust his definition)

You obviously can't remove the war and the fighting from a previously made show... But what would remain after you remove the war and the fighting is indeed a soap opera. Like it or not, Gundam deals with personal relationships that a young man has with people his age, and authority figures (when you hypothetically remove the fighting). Often there is some crappy romance, jealousy, pissed off girls, etc..... staple soap opera. Obviously the above just happens in the context of a war.

I'm not sure how familiar you are with TV... but even the Sopranos has been called a soap opera with its meandering focus on personal relationships (lack of focus on the criminal aspect). We sure as hell do not need Days of our lives type shows for a show to be classified as a soap opera....

But the guy in the movie I mentioned did act like an idiot. And the subject matter WAS the Holocaust. And you're supposed to laugh at his antics and still feel sorry for him... So case closed.

I certainly haven't seen the movie .. but I seriously doubt he did something as utterly stupid as a great leader saying "let me hand over my authority my enemy". You telling me we see someone like Churchill saying "let me just put one of the SS in my position while I go play golf?" The case is certainly not closed...

Of course your underlying assumption seems to be that since one completely unrelated movie managed show antics in the movie means Turn A Gundam was justified in doing the same... The assumption is completely false. What works in that move with its set of characters is irrelevant to whether Turn A Gundam should have been taken seriously... Do you actually want me to start listing series that DO deal with serious issues and DO NOT turn into a miserable parody like Turn A?

Umm... How? They just got their dough, they have their connections. They can easily procure a ticket to space for their family and friends (like what Adenauer Paraya does in the beginning of the movie).

The whole point was to show how selfish and evil politicians can get. And this wasn't the first time they acted this way in Gundam either.

... What are you talking about? They got their families off of earth for safety.. not as a permanent migration. Did you miss them arguing that Char would actually give up his army? Or see their surprise at the double cross? We aren't talking about selfishness.. we are talking about plain bad writing...

Let me put this in modern terms.... What we saw in CCA was roughly equivalent to the U.S. government reaching an accord with a known terrorist who has attacked the US multiple times in the very recent past.. and giving him a nuclear weapon in exchange for him turning over his associates. Actually... scratch that.. this isn't even a nuclear weapon.. this is something far bigger, since one single use can wipe out the entire Earth.....So, for a concrete analogy... just picture someone like George Bush handing over a nuclear bomb big enough to destroy the entire USA to Osama Bin Laden....I'm no fan of Bush by any means, but even he will not do something such as this...

[wingdarkness]

Originally Posted by avmoghe

What's topsy turvy?

Your entire ideology behind what Gundam should be (I disagree with your entire mindset when it comes to Gundam)...Don't run away from your initial point about it being a toy line show that should meet your specific set of superficial rules ("If I want plot and characters I won't watch Gundam." --I laff at that reasoning) ...You just see things differently...You see a concrete wall where others see a concrete walk-way and again that's fine, but not very persuasive in these parts...

Does Patrick Zala have a dead ringer that's willing to behold the ideals of doing right by the people of the Moon and the people of earth? Your Zala comparison is flawed because you are looking at the comparison simply academically, devoid of layers the characters represent...Devoid of the journey between Diana and Keil Heim to get to that point...Have you never seen a work where a leader gives their power to someone who they believe represents the values and ideals they believe in? Or simply believe they'd make a great leader? Prince and the Pauper, Gladiator, King Arthur's Court just to name a few off the top of my head...Your claims of insanity are just that, insane...As if the switch-a-roo has no source material to consider (Yeah i know you don't care)...

You clearly hate Turn A....You clearly went into to show expecting something totally different, you clearly got out of it the same basement-level complaints of animation and mecha designs (which is superficial since you seem to think Gundam should only be this), and you clearly lack passion for Gundam which makes this series a whole lot sweeter in those apex moments (Bull$hit blah blah blah moments for you)...

So what else can be said really? If I breakdown symbolism, it's bull$hit..If I breakdown expressionism it's bull$hit...Because like Johnny 5 before he got hit by lightning you see 1's and 0's not levels of characters, not symbolism, not emotional expressionism (You don't even understand the context of this show which is not strict in the area you are breaking down...Hell I might let an ape switch places with Aggripa Maintainer he was such a caricature)...That's why all your superfluous overblown comparisons (Osama Bin Laden, Patrick Zala, etc.) fall flat...Hey preach that $hit to the school kids all day I don't have a problem with it, but you won't make me sip that Kool-aid because I'm simply beyond that lock-boxed type of thinking...I for 1 understand that they're levels to this $hit and one action by one character doesn't equal the same action by another character just because they are in a similar position (THIS JUST IN BTW)...That's trite, that's easy, that's flawed mathematics...I'll continue to stay after class and erase the board of your less than tangent equations, if I must...

[avmoghe]

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

Your entire ideology behind what Gundam should be (I disagree with your entire mindset when it comes to Gundam)...Don't run away from your initial point about it being a toy line show that should meet your specific set of superficial rules ("If I want plot and characters I won't watch Gundam." --I laff at that reasoning) ...You just see things differently...You see a concrete wall where others see a concrete walk-way and again that's fine, but not very persuasive in these parts...

I'm not running away from anything.... I stand by that statement.

Does Patrick Zala have a dead ringer that's willing to behold the ideals of doing right by the people of the Moon and the people of earth?

No... but neither did Dianna. She had only just met Kihel and there was absolutely no way of knowing how a simple Earth girl would lead the Moon race. A loving queen does not hand over her military to a girl who knows nothing about the moonrace or its people... Let's not even get into the absolute madness of how such a girl is supposed to command forces and order around Colonels and majors...

The Zara analogy boils down to this: Zara picks a virtually unknown natural who knows nothing about Coordinators or military tactics to lead his military against the Earth forces, while he goes around playing Golf. Only if Seed (or any other Gundam) managed to pull something this utterly stupid do you have the ability to call the show just as stupid.

Your Zala comparison is flawed because you are looking at the comparison simply academically, devoid of layers the characters represent...Devoid of the journey between Diana and Keil Heim to get to that point...

They didn't have a damn journey before the switch.. how many times must I say this? Dianna picked Kihel to switch the when they were virtually unknown to each other? So what are you claiming here? Seeing Kihel a few times in the negotiations (speaking to her only once or twice) made Dianna automatically "know" that Kihel could lead the Moonrace? that she had the same morals and ideals as Dianna? that she was sincerely concerned for the well being of the moon race? that she could lead negotiations with Guin/etc? that she could be just as good as her own self in inspiring people in the war? That she wouldn't just help her own native earth race after being given this power? ...Seeing each other 1 or 2 times and chatting once is your "journey"? I call absolute horseshit.

And on top of this.... this unfreaking-believable show has the balls to try and make me sympathize with Dianna!!?? "It is all my fault" Dianna cries while the chumps around her console her... Fsck you beeatch... if you make decisions like abandoning your people to an earthrace leader during wartime and hoping she does okay..... you deserve to be shot in the face not consoled by the chumps around you...

Have you never seen a work where a leader gives their power to someone who they believe represents the values and ideals they believe in? Or simply believe they'd make a great leader? Prince and the Pauper, Gladiator, King Arthur's Court just to name a few off the top of my head...Your claims of insanity are just that, insane...As if the switch-a-roo has no source material to consider (Yeah i know you don't care)...

Not in the context of a freaking war when the lives of the freaking leader's beloved followers dearly depend on the leadership... and CERTAINLY not in the context of picking one absolutely unknown person from the enemy to replace the leader.

Do you realize what you're saying? What Dianna did is equivalent to Churchill picking someone from the SS and going off to play golf.. Not a single fictional work I've ever read or watched has been quite this stupid...

So what else can be said really? If I breakdown symbolism, it's bull$hit..If I breakdown expressionism it's bull$hit...

I said all your expressionism and symbolism are absolutely IRRELEVANT to the discussion. They are merely secondary... the primary, literal meaning cannot be compromised. Every single work of fiction must adhere to very simple rules of logic that take precedence over whatever horse shit symbolism the creator wants to express. (There are very few exceptions here... parodies, slapshot comedies..."mind fscks" like FLCL for example which are nothing more than moving picture enjoyed by the "art appreciators" such as yourself.. Random movies such as Dead or Alive with its crazy ending...) The latter CANNOT in any way, shape, or form make up for the loss of the former.

Most works have numerous places where this logic is lost (normal Gundam flaws fall into this category).. But what Turn A has done is ascended into absolute abandonment of even an attempt at logic... This has combined with the atrocious fighting... the irrelevant subplots...and Tomino's bad habits.. ALL of these combine together in order to make me hate the show...

Because like Johnny 5 before he got hit by lightning you see 1's and 0's not levels of characters, not symbolism, not emotional expressionism (You don't even understand the context of this show which is not strict in the area you are breaking down...Hell I might let an ape switch places with Aggripa Maintainer he was such a caricature)...That's why all your superfluous overblown comparisons (Osama Bin Laden, Patrick Zala, etc.) fall flat...Hey preach that $hit to the school kids all day I don't have a problem with it, but you won't make me sip that Kool-aid because I'm simply beyond that lock-boxed type of thinking...I for 1 understand that they're levels to this $hit and one action by one character doesn't equal the same action by another character just because they are in a similar position (THIS JUST IN BTW)...That's trite, that's easy, that's flawed mathematics...I'll continue to stay after class and erase the board of your less than tangent equations, if I must...

No need..... I'd much rather stay in my locked box that I deem my sanity...