why isn't avi dying

[D404]

Originally Posted by Maceart

It's quite simple actually.

AVI is still pretty much used by 99% of movie pirates out there. Check piratebay if you don't believe me, the number of 700 mb Xvid .avi files is quite a lot.

MKV is an open source container used pretty much only by anime fansubbers, who comprise less than 1% of all internet downloads. "The masses" don't care.

"Must use Matroska (.mkv) for container" - quoted from TVX2642K7 (The 720p x264 TV Releasing Standards 2007).

Still a retarded document tho. :P

[emptyeighty]

Of course there's a whole lot of avi out there since it was the standard container for the last decade or so. Still the new hq releases are mkv, so avi will slowly fade away.

[GHDpro]

Originally Posted by Maceart

MKV is an open source container used pretty much only by anime fansubbers,

As mentioned above, MKV is also the standard of choice for HD-release groups as AVI simply can't handle very big files. I know of several private BT sites loaded with HD material consisting of 1GB+ MKV files.

Originally Posted by Maceart

who comprise less than 1% of all internet downloads. "The masses" don't care.

That part is still true sadly, as like I said the BT sites were private. Indeed you don't see MKV on the big public BT sites much.

[jpwong]

Well, when you really look at it, people will use what works... until they can't anymore.

AVI will probably remain a very popular (non-fansub) choice until some really popular (with the masses) feature comes along that can't be hacked into the AVI container.

[emptyeighty]

Originally Posted by jpwong

Well, when you really look at it, people will use what works... until they can't anymore.

AVI will probably remain a very popular (non-fansub) choice until some really popular (with the masses) feature comes along that can't be hacked into the AVI container.

Like, say, h.264?

[GHDpro]

I would rather think that the proliferation of HD content might spur more people to use MKV, because they hit the AVI filesize limit. With H.264 "the masses" will probably argue that XviD still works fine for them.

Unfortunately for people to get more interested in HD material they must first see and want the advantages of HD files over LQ SD stuff and have fast enough internet connections to be able to download it in an acceptable time frame, as HQ 720p TV episodes (non-anime) can be up to 4x larger than the usual 350Mb of the LQ SD version. Oh and they need to be able to find the files easily as well, so they need to be on public BT trackers.

[Chinomi]

I despise .mkv's with a passion. Like was previously said, I'm one of those people with a DivX DVD Player so I just pop in a DVD of the fansub, sit back, and relax in a comfy couch or chair. I can't do that with .mkv's.

[cyth]

Originally Posted by emptyeighty

Like, say, h.264?

Not that it's a wise thing to do, but you can 'hack' it in AVI with a VfW codec build. DarkTheSheep has made some x264 VfW builds available that aren't really as effective when using n-core CPU, the output also introduces a few additional frames that could result in a slight audio-video desynchonization, but it serves its purpose... if you really want to do it. Personally, I see no reason, especially since High Profile H.264/AAC/MP4 has hardware support now. Those "scene" rules should be revised with that in mind.

[emptyeighty]

vfw h.264 will always suffer inferiority. Also no hardware player support for it.

Scene rules use softsubs, therefore mp4 is not an option currently.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by emptyeighty

Debunking avi myths is the best way to get even more people to use mkv/mp4 :-)

Originally Posted by Maceart

It's quite simple actually.

AVI is still pretty much used by 99% of movie pirates out there. Check piratebay if you don't believe me, the number of 700 mb Xvid .avi files is quite a lot.

MKV is an open source container used pretty much only by anime fansubbers, who comprise less than 1% of all internet downloads. "The masses" don't care.

I am one of the "massess" and I will tell you why if given a choice between aiv/mkv i will download the .avi. I know the whole mp4 and mkv has better quality and can do more things but I DON"T CARE.

I prefer avi to the easy of use. I have most of Zegapain on mp4 and it is a pain to skip parts and sometimes my player will freeze when i try to skip forward on certain parts. I don't have that problem with avi. It is easy sue and quality is not great but acceptable.

As for quality i will go BUY the DVD or HD-dvd or BlueRay when the show is license and release.

[Zero1]

Originally Posted by GHDpro

I would rather think that the proliferation of HD content might spur more people to use MKV, because they hit the AVI filesize limit. With H.264 "the masses" will probably argue that XviD still works fine for them.

Unfortunately for people to get more interested in HD material they must first see and want the advantages of HD files over LQ SD stuff and have fast enough internet connections to be able to download it in an acceptable time frame, as HQ 720p TV episodes (non-anime) can be up to 4x larger than the usual 350Mb of the LQ SD version. Oh and they need to be able to find the files easily as well, so they need to be on public BT trackers.

Sadly even filesize won't kill off AVI since it was only really the initial spec that had filesize limitations. The one that everyone uses is safe with large files and I've had some in excess of 60GB when I used to video edit with full movies compressed with lossless codecs

[emptyeighty]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

I prefer avi to the easy of use. I have most of Zegapain on mp4 and it is a pain to skip parts and sometimes my player will freeze when i try to skip forward on certain parts. I don't have that problem with avi. It is easy sue and quality is not great but acceptable.

Define "your player", and possibly the splitters/codecs it uses. The rest of the world has no problems with seeking in mp4.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by emptyeighty

Define "your player", and possibly the splitters/codecs it uses. The rest of the world has no problems with seeking in mp4.

I use powerdvd.

It is not the best out there but it is the most convenient to use for what i need it to do.

Another thing about mkv is that i can't load it into powerdvd as a play list (yes I am lazy) and the only program i have that plays mkv is windows media player and i am not a big fan of windows media players.

For me personally. Convenient/Easy of use > quality

Form past I also fine it silly to tried to collect the best "quality" fansub out there. I have a couple of boxes of Master Grade Fansub vhs tapes to attest to the silliness of it all when you will end replacing the majority with something better again in a few years anyway.

[TheFluff]

Originally Posted by Zero1

Sadly even filesize won't kill off AVI since it was only really the initial spec that had filesize limitations. The one that everyone uses is safe with large files and I've had some in excess of 60GB when I used to video edit with full movies compressed with lossless codecs

Came here to post this. Properly muxed AVI's can be absurdly large (passing the FAT32 4 GB limit is no problem at all). Of course, some hardware players won't accept them...

[Sci-Fi]

Think people tend to forget not everybody can afford to upgrade to the fastest, max memory, latest and greatest computer system and that's where the bone of contention about mkv lies squarely. Many point out that while mkv has technical advantages, mkv encoders tend to use up/require more resources like microsoft does and forgets about the rest that can't upgrade their systems for whatever reason. That makes mkv not as portable and playable on all systems, which mkv should be. Need to rethink and be more like linux and keep the footprint small.

I see a lot of mkv files that have "hardcoded subs"..why?..because the translation/sub groups are tired of people taking their work and inserting their own subs and calling it their own. Plus the majority don't turn off the subs anyways in order to take a clean screen shot.

Not everyone cares if the audio is "dual audio", 5.1, 7.1, or whatever, if they only have the standard 2-3 speakers and only want to watch and enjoy the episode.

A lot of mkv'ers blast people that use PCM, BUT that's what's being used on Blue-Ray DVD and HD DVD with Dolby Digital AC-3, Dolby Digital EX, DTS, Dolby Digital Plus and Dolby TrueHD as options. The audio codec Dolby True HD is the " lossless" choice for HD DVD.

AVI will continue to be around and preferred by most people whether or not mkv advocates like it or not. That's the simple truth and not an indictment or rejection of the mkv format.

[D404]

Originally Posted by Sci-Fi

Think people tend to forget not everybody can afford to upgrade to the fastest, max memory, latest and greatest computer system and that's where the bone of contention about mkv lies squarely. Many point out that while mkv has technical advantages, mkv encoders tend to use up/require more resources like microsoft does and forgets about the rest that can't upgrade their systems for whatever reason. That makes mkv not as portable and playable on all systems, which mkv should be. Need to rethink and be more like linux and keep the footprint small.

First of all, Matroska != H.264. Matroska is a container. In fact, iirc, matroska is actually faster than the avi container. That right there makes your whole portability point worthless. (I also find it funny you talk about gnu/linux there.)

Also, if you have a computer from.. say.. the last DECADE, you should be able to play h.264 pretty well.

Originally Posted by Sci-Fi

I see a lot of mkv files that have "hardcoded subs"..why?..because the translation/sub groups are tired of people taking their work and inserting their own subs and calling it their own. Plus the majority don't turn off the subs anyways in order to take a clean screen shot.

I cant say ive actually heard of much (or anything for that matter) people stealing subs and claiming them as their own. (groups that do 'steal' subs usually at least give credit to whoever originally made 'em. See: KAA) And, may I add, if someone wants your subs, hardsubbing certainly wont stop them. There are tools available to steal em that any random person could use pretty easily.

Originally Posted by Sci-Fi

Not everyone cares if the audio is "dual audio", 5.1, 7.1, or whatever, if they only have the standard 2-3 speakers and only want to watch and enjoy the episode.

Lots of people do actually care tho. More than you'd think. And downmixing is teh evil i say!

Originally Posted by Sci-Fi

A lot of mkv'ers blast people that use PCM, BUT that's what's being used on Blue-Ray DVD and HD DVD with Dolby Digital AC-3, Dolby Digital EX, DTS, Dolby Digital Plus and Dolby TrueHD as options. The audio codec Dolby True HD is the " lossless" choice for HD DVD.

I don't believe i've seen any matroska files with the pcm muxed right in. It's usually compressed to a lossless format like FLAC first.

Originally Posted by Sci-Fi

AVI will continue to be around and preferred by most people whether or not mkv advocates like it or not. That's the simple truth and not an indictment or rejection of the mkv format.

lol, probably, but one can hope.

[emptyeighty]

First the old "mkv is slower" non-argument. Great. Has been debunked several dozen times now, just search these forums. I'm happily playing pretty much all SD fansubs _in mkv_ with this computer from the last millenium. It's a 750MHz Athlon fyi. Also once all the PS3 and Xbox 360 owners figure out that they actually have a fully working mp4 standalone player in their living room people _will_ move away from avi. Couple that with noone seriously using h.264 in avi it shows quite clearly that avi is _not_ the future. Legacy files will of course stay around for a long time, but as support for mp4/mkv playback grows even larger avi will slowly fade away.

[Sci-Fi]

Originally Posted by D404

First of all, Matroska != H.264. Matroska is a container. In fact, iirc, matroska is actually faster than the avi container. That right there makes your whole portability point worthless. (I also find it funny you talk about gnu/linux there.)

Also, if you have a computer from.. say.. the last DECADE, you should be able to play h.264 pretty well.

H264/X264 isn't the problem but the recent flood of "HDTV" mkv files that have shown up. Even switching to CoreAVC doesn't help those with older computers and they see video that is out of sync with the audio and skipping scenes. Normal mkv files play fine. Perhaps I didn't make that clear in my original post....my bad.

[emptyeighty]

Originally Posted by Sci-Fi

H264/X264 isn't the problem but the recent flood of "HDTV" mkv files that have shown up. Even switching to CoreAVC doesn't help those with older computers and they see video that is out of sync with the audio and skipping scenes. Normal mkv files play fine. Perhaps I didn't make that clear in my original post....my bad.

To be perfectly exact here the problem _is_ HD h264, _not_ mkv in any way. You could mux the same video stream into avi (provided some avi-incompatible advanced features aren't used) and end up with with a very comparable CPU usage.

[jpwong]

Originally Posted by Sci-Fi

H264/X264 isn't the problem but the recent flood of "HDTV" mkv files that have shown up. Even switching to CoreAVC doesn't help those with older computers and they see video that is out of sync with the audio and skipping scenes. Normal mkv files play fine. Perhaps I didn't make that clear in my original post....my bad.

Your problem is more with HD sizes then. It won't make a difference what container or codec you use, if you are going to effectivly double or triple on screen pixils, you're going to massivly jump CPU requirements.