Quality Discussion HD/SD (Offtopic posts from Shana II Ep 1)

[pichu]

Originally Posted by Mentar

See Fluffy's screenshots, which prove that there IS quality loss by down/upscaling, disproving your theory. The softening and mild aliasing of the picture is exactly what makes a real difference when the softened-aliased part is re-upsized for fullscreen playback.

Actually, I'm not going to butt into this heated conversation, but I'd like to point out that his screenshots don't really mean anything. The reason is that there will be some quality loss when that function (*resize) is used, no matter what.

Spoiler for Quality Loss of BicubicResize function in AVISynth:

These shots are quite obvious that both master and source are from HD. It proves the following: crisp (original) to blurry (upscale->downscale) to blurrier (downscale->upscale).

Spoiler for AVISynth Codes:

a = clip
b = clip.bicubicresize( 2560 , 1440 ).bicubicresize( 1280 , 720 )
c = clip.bicubicresize( 856 , 480 ).bicubicresize( 1280 , 720 )
stackvertical( \
stackhorizontal( a.subtitle( "Original" ) , clip.blankclip.subtitle( "Subtract( whatever_clip , clip )" ) ) , \
stackhorizontal( b.subtitle( "bicubicresize( 2560 , 1440 ).bicubicresize( 1280 , 720 )" ) , subtract( b , clip ) ) , \
stackhorizontal( c.subtitle( "bicubicresize( 856 , 480 ).bicubicresize( 1280 , 720 )" ) , subtract( c , clip ) ) )

Warning: These images are quite large (4MB size, 2560X2160)
http://pichu.org/stuff/imagerecon01.png
http://pichu.org/stuff/imagerecon02.png
http://pichu.org/stuff/imagerecon03.png

Also, image reconstruction has been a research problem for decades; it basically reconstructs a damaged footage or image to be in a readable form. In this case, you're trying to restore HD from the downscaled HD.

[Zero1]

Originally Posted by Mentar

Er, no. I was encoding 1280x720 since the source was 16:9, not 4:3. Or maybe I'm misunderstanding you here somewhere?

No, I was just referring to some other encodes (which I guess were a while back now) which were 4:3.

I can see your where you're coming from, but I personally would reserve the HD label for native sources.

[DryFire]

[SS-Eclipse]_Shakugan_no_Shana_Second_-_01_(1280x720_h264)_[BC008F80].mkv

The release is not labeled HD, I only see resolution and codec. Unless by using an HD resolution you automatically slap an HD label on it.

[Harukalover]

Originally Posted by pichus

Actually, I'm not going to butt into this heated conversation, but I'd like to point out that his screenshots don't really mean anything. The reason is that there will be some quality loss when that function (*resize) is used, no matter what.

So that proves his point. Mentar didn't do the upscaling. It was just upscaled at some point (either the station did it or almost every capper did it and did a good job on it as well). So downscaling it to an SD resolution wouldn't have helped any.

Lastly, like I said elsewhere. The release looked good, so why complain? Unless it's just for the intention of trolling which plenty of people seem to do well here.

[grunty]

Originally Posted by DryFire

The release is not labeled HD,

Maybe not now...

Originally Posted by Mentar

most of the new animation is true HD, and looking extremely detailed and sweet.

Originally Posted by TT

Size: 232.62MiB "Comment: You definitely want to try this version.​ Shana has never looked better than in HD"

aDB said HDTV for a day or two, too, but now it's properly tagged so there's no problem or complaining - all is clear and dandy, we have a win-win situation - those who say it's not HD are happy, those who say it's HD - well, the non-HD sayers can laugh in their face, and those who say it's "excellent quality" can still say it's "excellent quality".

[Mentar]

Originally Posted by grunty

aDB said HDTV for a day or two, too, but now it's properly tagged so there's no problem or complaining - all is clear and dandy, we have a win-win situation - those who say it's not HD are happy, those who say it's HD - well, the non-HD sayers can laugh in their face, and those who say it's "excellent quality" can still say it's "excellent quality".

Not that I care about this aspect too much, but the final result of the nay-sayers' whining is that now, anidb lists the same video quality for both releases (2.5 out of 3 stars), doing the fans a real dis-service. Which only underlines my point from the beginning: The dogmatic application of the "HD" label leads to nonsensical results (indicating the same video quality of both releases, which is simply untrue).

I'm only waiting for the first decent DVD encode of Shana S2 (which can never look as good as this version) to get the usual 3-out-of-3, and the absurdity will have turned the rating on its head

[NoWai]

Originally Posted by Mentar

Not that I care about this aspect too much, but the final result of the nay-sayers' whining is that now, anidb lists the same video quality for both releases (2.5 out of 3 stars), doing the fans a real dis-service. Which only underlines my point from the beginning: The dogmatic application of the "HD" label leads to nonsensical results (indicating the same video quality of both releases, which is simply untrue).

I'm sure one can easily find lq xvid compatibility encodes listed as 2.5/3 on shows with horibble sources all over anidb, as well as DVDRip's of varying quality rated 2.5 as well. It doesn't really mean much. Most people will only give 2.5 and 3 (very rarely 2 for bad encodes) for most encodes. And i've certainly seen dozens of files being rated 2.5 when they came from horribly bad DTV captures. So anything DTV(or even DVD in some cases) would be given a 2.5 rating, while only a true HD source(or the source with the highest quality at the given moment, which can be a DVD for SD mastered shows) being given 3.0, of course we can find exceptions to this, but theres rarely much info to be obtained from this quality rating. It's only useful for staying clear of really bad releases, not for differientating between average, good and very good.

[nyaa-san]

Originally Posted by Mentar

I'm only waiting for the first decent DVD encode of Shana S2 (which can never look as good as this version) ...

Can you explain why the dvd can't be as good as the raw you used?
Assuming the following:
-they don't redraw or change scenes (in which case the dvd automatically wins)
-they both use the same master, supposedly in HD or mixed HD/SD sequences
-both are downsized to SD ( let's suppose 720*480) at some point during the process

in the case of tv broadcase, we add
an upsampling + filtering stage, software or hardware
video compression (mpeg2 or mpeg4? i don't know what are the DTV broadcast specs in Japan)
capping
recompression by the capper, who usually isn't as anal ret^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H quality consicous as fansub encoders

in the case of dvd we add
mpeg2 compression
dvd authoring
1:1 ripping by a fansubber (we all buy the dvds we use as source? right? right?)
optional:
upsampling + filtering, software

so? where in the 2nd chain does the quality drop lower than in the 1st chain?

[grunty]

Originally Posted by Mentar

I'm only waiting for the first decent DVD encode of Shana S2 (which can never look as good as this version) (...)

Until the DVDs then...

[bayoab]

Originally Posted by Mentar

Not that I care about this aspect too much, but the final result of the nay-sayers' whining is that now, anidb lists the same video quality for both releases (2.5 out of 3 stars), doing the fans a real dis-service. Which only underlines my point from the beginning: The dogmatic application of the "HD" label leads to nonsensical results (indicating the same video quality of both releases, which is simply untrue).

I'm only waiting for the first decent DVD encode of Shana S2 (which can never look as good as this version) to get the usual 3-out-of-3, and the absurdity will have turned the rating on its head

It's not as if the fans are even qualified to rate video in the first place. There have been a number studies on HD vs SD video and the almost all of them find that a) people don't have a clue as to what HD is supposed to look like and b) people won't believe something isn't in HD if they believe it is supposed to be.

Therefore, I doubt that this little thread really did that much damage. That said, what little of the .264 release I could watch (slideshow!) looked like a sharpened upscale of the XviD. The overall image quality was not that much better.

[cyth]

The other fundamental problem with Mentar's philosophy, aside from making a huge disservice to true HD encodes, is that he's trying to redefine what a "good encode" stands for. Suddenly retaining detail at lower filesizes isn't the most important aspect of encoding, what's important is the overall 'impression'. The discussion about this boggled down to misrepresentation of how an anime is supposed to look like. This very much reminded me of the preference leechers usually have when it comes to encodes with boosted saturation/contrast, even though the ending colour levels may have not been what the authors intended them to be.

[Mentar]

Originally Posted by nyaa-san

Can you explain why the dvd can't be as good as the raw you used?
Assuming the following:
-they don't redraw or change scenes (in which case the dvd automatically wins)
-they both use the same master, supposedly in HD or mixed HD/SD sequences
-both are downsized to SD ( let's suppose 720*480) at some point during the process

Okay, for argument's sake let's stipulate that. (Personally, I suspect that the transfer to 720x480 will be different for the DVD, but it would lead too far to get into that yet).

After looking into the situation some more, I'm by now _convinced_ that the airing itself was in native 1280x720. Reason: All the other stations' airings showed EXACTLY the same issues, and it's basically impossible that so many cappers use exactly the same hi-quality upscaling/sharpening technique for their captures. Look at the Ayako/Your-Mom release and you'll see what I mean.

Therefore, this is the production chain I'm nearly convinced of by now:

o Animated in HD
o Captured and scaled to 720x480
o Upscaled and broadcast at 1280x720

in the case of tv broadcase, we add
an upsampling + filtering stage, software or hardware
video compression (mpeg2 or mpeg4? i don't know what are the DTV broadcast specs in Japan)
capping
recompression by the capper, who usually isn't as anal ret^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H quality consicous as fansub encoders

The upsampling+filtering part will be key. If this is done by the stations themselves or by the studio before it's handed to the stations in 1280x720 directly I don't know.

in the case of dvd we add
mpeg2 compression
dvd authoring
1:1 ripping by a fansubber (we all buy the dvds we use as source? right? right?)
optional:
upsampling + filtering, software

In general, DVD encodes aren't upsampled from 720x480 to 1280x720, because this is way too extreme and doesn't translate into a clean end frame.

Secondly, in a little exchange yesterday Haali supplied an interesting technical explanation why he believes that the mastering process of the DVD footage might result in quality degradation, but I need to look into this a bit more first - I suspect I didn't understand everything yet ^_^;

so? where in the 2nd chain does the quality drop lower than in the 1st chain?[/QUOTE]

Because I believe that the "station upscale" to 1280x720 will be of a much higher quality than what we get "manually" via upscale filtering from the DVD source.

Also, I wonder if the DVD source itself will truly be the same 720x480 footage which obviously at one point was the foundation of the creation of the station airing master.

I maintain my prediction/challenge: I'm 99% sure that it will not be possible to upscale the DVD release to the 1280x720 version which was the basis of the SS-Eclipse and Ayako/Your-Mom releases.

[Mentar]

Originally Posted by bayoab

It's not as if the fans are even qualified to rate video in the first place.

This is a gem ... especially combined with a comment like this:

That said, what little of the .264 release I could watch (slideshow!) looked like a sharpened upscale of the XviD. The overall image quality was not that much better.

bayoab, if you really don't see a noticeable difference between the mkv and avi releases, then you just disqualified yourself from ANY quality discussion. Let's simply agree to disagree then. There's no point in discussing music with a deaf person, either.

Originally Posted by Toua

The other fundamental problem with Mentar's philosophy, aside from making a huge disservice to true HD encodes [...]

I didn't know I had to do a service to "true HD encodes". I provide a service to anime viewers.

...is that he's trying to redefine what a "good encode" stands for. Suddenly retaining detail at lower filesizes isn't the most important aspect of encoding, what's important is the overall 'impression'.

That never changed. The task of good encoding is to provide as pleasant a video and audio for the fans as possible. There's no clear-cut "right" or "wrong" way to do it. The old "better quality at the same filesize or same quality at lower filesize" argument is a good example. Personally, I emphasize quality gain over filesize savings, that never changed either. And yes, the mkv release still offers the best quality I could achieve with the source material at hand.

The discussion about this boggled down to misrepresentation of how an anime is supposed to look like.

Why "mis"representation? Explain.

This very much reminded me of the preference leechers usually have when it comes to encodes with boosted saturation/contrast, even though the ending colour levels may have not been what the authors intended them to be.

Your point being? Just for reference, I'm still generally against color manipulation, and rarely use it.

I guess your misconception is that releasing the show in the native resolution of the capture - 1280x720 - is that by doing so, something is "altered". Of course it's not. Just the opposite - by downscaling it, I deprive the encode of extra information it has. See the xvid version of it, and encoding it to h264 wouldn't have changed anything either.

I'm not sure what you guys are trying to achieve with your inflammatory statements, but unless you have anything _substantial_ to offer, please don't try to derail the technical discussion again. Thank you.

[cyth]

Why "mis"representation? Explain.

I made the contrast/saturation comment to compare it to leechers and *their* perception of what a "good encode" generally looks like. You can boost saturation/(to some degree)contrast to ZOMG and 80% of leechers that care will start fapping at your encode. But at what cost? To change colour levels so drastically, basically changing the feel of the show?
So I obviously wasn't talking about resolutions. Shana II on MBS will continue to air in SD and that's simply a fact. But hey, maybe if you wish for it hard enough, it'll come true. *_*

[xris]

Reminder

Be polite to your fellow forum members.
Do not insult or harass other members just because they have a different opinion that you. Do not take it so seriously that you end up in an argument with another forum member because they do not share your point of view. Discussion and good spirited banter is always welcome, but harassing people won't be tolerated.

[Mentar]

(Thanks xris)

Very well. Let's agree then on the few facts:

1) The HQ raws which more than half of a dozen japanese cappers put out are all in 1280x720

2) SS-Eclipse and Ayako-YM both put out their hi-quality release in 1280x720 aswell

3) The encodes are explicitly lauded for their clarity and visual quality on forums, databases et al.

4) Well-known Eclipse fans like bayoab and Lythka complain that the releases are not HD but SD

5) Longish highly controversial discussion about the usage of terms SD, HD and the likes.

6) In the end, we've got to agree to disagree what constitutes what

7) We (bayoab/Lythka et al. and me) don't think very highly of each other

That should be it

[cyth]

Let's add one more,

8) MBS is airing Shakugan no Shana II at SD resolution.

Also, 4) needs a footnote: Only true Eclipse fans argue the 1280x720 fansub releases are HD, the rest of the educated community and every other highly appraised encoder is laughing their ass off at this.

[Hanxue]

Originally Posted by Toua

8) MBS is airing Shakugan no Shana II at SD resolution.

Objection, your honor! The station logos and sponsor logos are way too crisp to be aired in SD and then upscaled. Also, how come several raw cappers display an eerily similar level of sharpness for them if they're all upscaling with (presumably) different filters?

[Mentar]

Originally Posted by Toua

Let's add one more,

8) MBS is airing Shakugan no Shana II at SD resolution.

Let's correct this a bit.

8) Lythka believes that MBS is airing Shakugan no Shana II at SD resolution.

That's a fact.

The more I've been looking into this, the less I believe it. And this is why: Going through hashdb.com, I've seen no less than 12 raws at 1280x720, many from experienced and known cappers who tend to properly adjust their encodes (resolution, proper framerate etc).

And these captures look nearly identical - not only the MBS captures, but also the TBS version, which Ayako-YM used. They also have the same flaws. The probability that 12 capper-upscales by different encoders look so similar is near-nonexistant. Also, as many people have pointed out, the credit pages are HD aswell. Therefore I believe it almost certain that technically the airing resolution was 1280x720 after all.

About the rest - let's leave the judgement to the viewers

[grunty]

xris, any way of closing this thread until DVDs are out or something? I believe everyone already said what they wanted about these TV encodes and now they're just jumping at eachother.

(Mentar's "true but unfriendly statement removed" edit reason is not one bit better than spitting in ones face.)