Japan Asks America to Stop Illegal Net Releases of Anime

[SeijiSensei]

Originally Posted by HurricaneHige

While i agree with your point, but rite now it is the Japanese government asking America to stop their releases, meaning they r pointing their fingers to subs and not raws, since i dont think we get our raws from NA.

OK, let me elaborate a bit on that point.

The rise of sites like YouTube present an enormous problem for Japanese producers who were accustomed to having relatively complete control over the Japanese audience. Now it's possible for Japanese anime fans to watch shows on overseas streaming sites rather than purchasing DVDs. This poses a political problem for the producers since they don't have the same clout with foreign governments and companies as they do at home.

Fansubbing exacerbates this problem since a lot of the material available from sites like YouTube are uploaded fansubs. It's not a very big leap for the producers to conclude that reducing the availability of fansubs will make it harder for Japanese viewers to end-run the established domestic distribution channels by visiting streaming sites. So even efforts to curtail fansubbing can be seen as efforts to control access by Japanese viewers to anime programming.

As evidence for this proposition, I found it interesting that the Japanese music industry has been quite industrious in submitting take-down requests to YouTube.

[DragoonKain3]

The way I see it is this way...

Let's say we get 1000 anime fanatics who's interested in a certain series. Question begs...

a) how many bought the DVD series 'blind'
b) how many bought the DVD series because they saw the fansubs first
c) how many did not buy because they saw the fansubs and didn't like it, otherwise they would've bought it blind
d) how many did not buy the DVD because it's already free over the net, otherwise they would've bought it since that's the only way to get it
e) how many did not buy the DVD series because they don't have money in the first place, nor are willing to fork over the money

In essence, groups 'a' and 'b' are what makes DVD sales as of right now.

As for 'a', I believe they are the majority of the DVD sales. I reason this because fansub watchers hate dubs, yet dubs SELL. So who else buys the DVDs for dubs? Those who's never watched fansubs before, ie those who go 'blind'. They might have seen the cover and/or reviews about it, but that's it. And guess what? Fansubs don't do jack for these people either.

So I established that the majority of DVD sales aren't those who's watching fansubs in the first place (for arguements sake, lets say 70% of DVD sales, although anything over 50% will work as well). So with or without fansubs, they'll still have that base of sales. Even without fansubs, you won't convert any people from group 'e' to buy DVD sales, so these people aren't at all affected by the presence or absence of fansubs in terms of DVD sales.

Now here's the specualtion... Group 'b' are those who make up the rest of the sales. Question is, how many of Group 'b' will still buy DVDs if fansubs went kapoot and no other way of getting a 'preview' is available.? Most likely, next to none. So without fansubs, the might lose say 25% of their sales, and I think I'm being generous when saying they'll still keep 5% of sales due to some group 'b' members buying anime through DVDs because that's the only way to get them anymore.

That said, while group 'b' basically represents loss of sales through banning of fansubs, groups 'c' and 'd' are gain of sales through banning.

HOWEVER, group 'c', having bought the first dvd blind, wouldn't buy the rest of the series since they won't like it. So they'll for sure make up very little of the 25% lost, say maybe 1% total.

So it all comes down to group 'd' to make up the rest of the sales. The question is, how much sales would they gain from group 'd' in the case fansubs went kapoot? Would it be as much or more than the sales generated by fansubs through group 'b' people? It's anyone's guess, but I say, not a chance. But then again I'm biased, since I'm of group 'b'.


Maybe we should have a poll to see who's in what group.

Me? I'm in group 'b', though I only started this year, spending already a minimum of $5k already. If fansubs cease to exist, well, I have other hobbies I dropped because of anime that I can start again. So if they don't want my $6k+ a year, well, that's just fine with me.

[Malintex_Terek]

Originally Posted by bayoab

The anime bubble was the biggest point. It burst a few years ago.

2002 might have been the climax, but 2003 + 2004 + 2005 + 2006 + 2007 are comparably robust. I wasn't actually being specific with "NOW" but I meant compared with ten years ago.

[Kamui4356]

Originally Posted by DragoonKain3

The way I see it is this way...

Let's say we get 1000 anime fanatics who's interested in a certain series. Question begs...

a) how many bought the DVD series 'blind'
b) how many bought the DVD series because they saw the fansubs first
c) how many did not buy because they saw the fansubs and didn't like it, otherwise they would've bought it blind
d) how many did not buy the DVD because it's already free over the net, otherwise they would've bought it since that's the only way to get it
e) how many did not buy the DVD series because they don't have money in the first place, nor are willing to fork over the money

In essence, groups 'a' and 'b' are what makes DVD sales as of right now.

As for 'a', I believe they are the majority of the DVD sales. I reason this because fansub watchers hate dubs, yet dubs SELL. So who else buys the DVDs for dubs? Those who's never watched fansubs before, ie those who go 'blind'. They might have seen the cover and/or reviews about it, but that's it. And guess what? Fansubs don't do jack for these people either.

So I established that the majority of DVD sales aren't those who's watching fansubs in the first place (for arguements sake, lets say 70% of DVD sales, although anything over 50% will work as well). So with or without fansubs, they'll still have that base of sales. Even without fansubs, you won't convert any people from group 'e' to buy DVD sales, so these people aren't at all affected by the presence or absence of fansubs in terms of DVD sales.

Now here's the specualtion... Group 'b' are those who make up the rest of the sales. Question is, how many of Group 'b' will still buy DVDs if fansubs went kapoot and no other way of getting a 'preview' is available.? Most likely, next to none. So without fansubs, the might lose say 25% of their sales, and I think I'm being generous when saying they'll still keep 5% of sales due to some group 'b' members buying anime through DVDs because that's the only way to get them anymore.

That said, while group 'b' basically represents loss of sales through banning of fansubs, groups 'c' and 'd' are gain of sales through banning.

HOWEVER, group 'c', having bought the first dvd blind, wouldn't buy the rest of the series since they won't like it. So they'll for sure make up very little of the 25% lost, say maybe 1% total.

So it all comes down to group 'd' to make up the rest of the sales. The question is, how much sales would they gain from group 'd' in the case fansubs went kapoot? Would it be as much or more than the sales generated by fansubs through group 'b' people? It's anyone's guess, but I say, not a chance. But then again I'm biased, since I'm of group 'b'.


Maybe we should have a poll to see who's in what group.

Me? I'm in group 'b', though I only started this year, spending already a minimum of $5k already. If fansubs cease to exist, well, I have other hobbies I dropped because of anime that I can start again. So if they don't want my $6k+ a year, well, that's just fine with me.

It seems there should be a few more groups, like people who watch anime on tv and will/will not buy because of it. Not to mention the numbers would vary for each series. Something with a lot of action might get a large portion of your group A, but something with more drama like AIR will likely have a larger portion of group b.

Group c can be considered non buyers, since they won't get more than 1 dvd.

Group d are the big problem, but we have no idea how large it is.

Group e is completely irrelevant to the issue since they wouldn't buy anything either way.

[-CaliphLysius-]

Originally Posted by Malintex_Terek

Sigh, I've been reading about this "trend" amongst capitalists in some recent Economics literature; their greed is so insatiable, they risk castrating themselves for a narrow-minded, short sighted promise of future profits.

Frankly, it couldn't come at a worse time in terms of arguing a case. The anime industry has NEVER BEEN BIGGER in America, true there are a ton of pirates but they might as well be blaming the R1 licensors for not shelling out enough to pay the R3 distributors. Why...? Because Japan's licensing fees for anime have increased tremendously over the years. What is it now, 30% of the actual production price on average? Let's not talk about how Japan's economy is finally looking bright for the first time in two decades.

Clearly, this is something that new PM is trying to steamroll just to look tough and frankly he's a moron for thinking it'll actually have sway, let alone impact sales toward the positive.

Simple economics states that a larger market share does not necessarily correspond to higher profits for an industry, as it depends on the equilibrium price of the good on the market.

Guess what, the availability of FREE fansubs WILL devalue anime, such that the equilibrium price per unit (or expected revenue per "unit" sold) will be lower than if fansubs did not exist.

Put simpler, let's consider two groups in the population market for anime in North America.

Group A legally purchases the anime that they watch.
Group B only watches free fansubs.
Each DVD sold generates S in revenue, such that the total revenue for the anime industry from DVD sales is S * A

In a world where fansubs did not exist, we would see a decrease in the size of Group A, since I will concede that there does exist a group of individuals who utilize free fansubs as exposure material for future anime that they may purchase. We'll call this decrease "P", for previewers.

The intermediate population that purchases DVDs is not A - P, with total revenue S * (A - P).

However, the number of DVD purchases is also expected to see a new influx of individuals, from a subsection of the previous Group B, call this group N, for "new buyers.

The new population who buys DVDs is thus A - P + B. We can clearly see that if B is greater than P, the anime industry will be bringing in more money than if fansubs DID exist, despite the overall smaller population of anime watchers.

[Nicholi]

So after reading this...are all the truly ethical little boys and girls going to stop fansubbing now? Since it has finally been said in simple terms "we do not want you distributing our content". At least plainly stated for those living in the US, if you somehow think Japan is just fine with sharing their content elsewhere. Is AnimeSuki going to heed the Japanese government's message, or does it only respect the wishes of individual studios when they send out mean emails :P?

I think I have said this before...eventually there will come a time when Japanese copyright holders will be able to send C&D threats which won't be harmless letters from a foreign country. Communication and good relations between officials will only increase with time. We all know fansubbing is against the law because it involves simply ignoring the rights of the owners of the content. Have any of you seriously asked for permission to fansub a series? I wonder if any studios would say yes...maybe even give some additional support to boost foreign interest (thus licensing ). Nono, working together is bad, we should just do whatever the fuck we want and pretend no one owns the rights to the show...wait no, the fans own it! There do seem to be a few weirdos out there, pretending it's all ok because they don't live in Japan and everything will be fine for eternity.

Most unfortunate seems to be the old adage that so long as fansubbers drop series when they are licensed in their countries of origin, "Japan" will give a slight approving nod and let them be. Doesn't seem to be the case. So what now o' ethical fansubbers (and normal ones as well)...what will you do now? Why are we still pretending everything is fine as long as the show is unlicensed in country X. Will you make a move, or wait for the inevitable. Thieverizing is thieverizing to me :3, I could care less.

Start your post off with "In a bleak future..." and make your predictions of what is to come, if anything is to change at all. Rebel fansubbers fighting with lasers (pewpew), giant mecha terrorizing the land, zombies!!, or high schoolers with sekrat powers which are saving the world from copyright destruction. Or just make a normal reply and pretend you can still fansub and be righteous n_n.

[Vexx]

Offer me japanese (or any other country's) channels to my home... and then I'll talk.
Until then, I don't spend a dime on DVDs unless I've seen the broadcast series via fansub or raw. Every anime DVD I own was a result of seeing the aired version on fansubs (over four thousand dollars at this point).

Secondary problem: the number of anime series that *never* get licensed. Again, a failure to address the market. "On demand" DVD pressings are affordable if someone would offer them. No one does.

I kept my VHS recordings of Animaniacs for almost 10 years while Warner suits argued over who would get which 1/10% before they released them on DVD. 2 tubs of the stuff. Offer me a legal way to watch any broadcast anime I'm interested in so that I can determine which ones I'll buy the "improved/enhanced" DVDs of ... and I won't *need* fansubs anymore.

And just like some people watch broadcast anime in Japan and never buy the DVDs... some people here will watch anime and never buy DVDs. duh.... I guess those japanese people are "stealing" too (to use the industry illogic).

[Potatochobit]

the biggest flaw with the current industry "and also why they are not making money" is that they rely solely on DVD purchases, outside of japan.

and most television networks will not carry anime, with good reason.

the production quality is low and the overhead cost is high, so fixing the system is not relatively easy.

news like this relatively means nothing though. the US is always pestering China to stop the pirating of microsoft and hollywood products.

[Malintex_Terek]

Originally Posted by -CaliphLysius-

Guess what, the availability of FREE fansubs WILL devalue anime, such that the equilibrium price per unit (or expected revenue per "unit" sold) will be lower than if fansubs did not exist.

lol wut? Assuming the "dub market" and the "sub market" (n. - people who don't know fansubs v. those who do) seriously overlap, maybe. But that's an unlikely case. You might as well be talking about free cigars in Cuba is somehow affecting quantity demand of cigars in the United States when the two markets barely interact at all.

[Kyuu]

Originally Posted by Messerschmitt_Bf-109

LOL, with what? Hell, the US has bases in Okinawa, Iwo Jima, Tokyo, Osaka....the US military makes up a portion of defense against (Not trying to start anything) China.

Didn't you know? Japan has a hidden stock pile of Gundams somewhere. Probably within Mt. Fuji.

[b0nk]

Well for one thing why is Japan targeting only the US, it seems really unfair to assume we are the cause of their losses. Most of the fansubbers in the groups I work for are mostly from european nations or asian countries like a fraction are in the US. Another thing is the most of the groups BT trackers aren't hosted in the US but in fact they are located in europe and asia.

I don't think anything will change in fact if they do decide to pursue with legal action the fansubbers will go "underground" and every release will be anonymous. Maybe releasing in IRC only like in the old days. People will find a way to get them eventually.

They are aiming in the wrong direction, if they really wanted to lessen the fansubs they should aim at the raw cappers and the p2p programs like share and winny. If they find a way to shut down the raw distributers then that would really hurt subbers more than threats sent to a specific nation.

But I don't think we should face legal action for making a logo or styling a karaoke on a fansub. Since we're just adding content that was not there to begin with.

[aohige]

Originally Posted by KyuuA4

Didn't you know? Japan has a hidden stock pile of Gundams somewhere. Probably within Mt. Fuji.

LIES!

We don't hide them in mountains... they are displayed out in the open for all to see in the quiet countryside of Okayama!
http://bitter.swee.to/gundam.html

[Vexx]

Just point me to the Sky Girls academy

@b0nk: be careful about falling into the "argument framing trap".... so far no losses have been established because the few *real* studies on this sort of thing (e.g. music/movie industry) that *have* been done have had mixed findings. You haven't lost a sale to someone who would never spend money on it in the first place. You *do* lose sales when you treat your paying customers like criminals or don't allow them to get the same preview of the product that your domestic audience gets. On the other hand, you do lose money when someone who would have bought the R1 DVDs gets them off of Internet rips. I'm not defending that crowd at all.

[bayoab]

Read what this is again:

Originally Posted by TFA

The Japanese government issued a formal statement of requests to the government of the United States on regulatory reform and market competition policy on October 18, and included a request for the United States to help stop the unauthorized reproduction and distribution of Japanese animation online. Specifically, the formal statement mentions the spread of Japanese animation and other materials on video-sharing sites and peer-to-peer file-sharing networks.

This is a single PARAGRAPH in a 52 page document regarding the prevalence of anime on video sites and p2p areas. The word anime appears once and only once in the entire document. This seems more like a strongly worded version of "if you haven't guessed, we really don't like our stuff on youtube/etc and we want something done about it because it isn't going away." The magnitude of this is being extremely exaggerated by some people.

[Potatochobit]

Well for one thing why is Japan targeting only the US


because we have money


lots of it


Japan's electronics economy is very very dependent on the US

[WanderingKnight]

Am I the only one seeing this as merely a measure out of simple protocol and not really important to them? Knowing that the US is the most important "fighter against copyright infringement", including something like that in a 50-page long request seems kind of fitting. I really really don't think they are worried at all--Japanese anime historically owes its success outside the island's borders to fansubs, and it keeps on happening, so I'm sure most studios understand that.

And, as always, pirates shall exist, lest the world wishes to be completely destroyed due to global warming. Arrr!

[Vexx]

Bayoab and WanderingKnight are correct... this is, like, a few words in a huge document already full of armwaving platitudes (I rtfd'd).

Makes me think the OP's "news source" was just trolling for excitement, hits and controversy.

[Messerschmitt_Bf-109]

Originally Posted by KyuuA4

Didn't you know? Japan has a hidden stock pile of Gundams somewhere. Probably within Mt. Fuji.

Gundams would mince -meat in real life with today's technology. A few missles from an aircraft and they are down. They wouldn't have 'energy shields'..lol I can't belive I am getting serious about this..

Well, I figured a long time ago the future of fansubs was not bright, it was just a matter of time. As for how this will affect us immediatly, I doubt the US will do anything at the moment. As I said, the US government is focused on spreading democracy across the world, briging peace to war torn nations, blah, blah,blah. The first thing I see done is the established fan sub sites and distributtion sites being shut down, anime suki, shinsen subs, etc. Anon will still sub of course because Anon is many and none..lol. But I doubt Anon could take on the entire show market. The biggest thing I see happening if something is done right away is not every show will be subbed anymore, just major ones. Which sucks as the kinds I like are usually the ones no on pays attention to except like one group.

As for those saying until they license every show, or send channels for anime from Japan, you will watch fansubs, I think Japan's view on you is tough shit. You don't live here, you are not a Japanese citizen, we don't owe you any show.

The future does look dark for fan subs, and when they are finally all brought down, I guess I will have to focus on another hobby of mine. Until then,

http://cristgaming.com/pirate.swf





Or we could all learn Japanese. They are targeting fansubs because most of them have established sites and such, they can actually rbing those down(OiNK). But
P2P is much, much harder to shut down. RAWs will still be leaked, it is just will there be fan subbers to sub them. We learn Japanese, we cut out the middle man, lol.

[Altema]

Originally Posted by Vagrant0

Ok, while not all extras are created equal, a real fan of the series or genere would feel differently. You too are being subjective. Are you even interested in anime? Or are you just having too much fun playing Devil's advocate?

Maybe I'm just an exception, but the whole reason why I watch a series, and mention it to others is because I want to see that series do well, and similar series be created. Not because anime is free entertainment, but because I appreciate the form of media, and want to see it more prevelant.

What defines a real fan? From what I get from reading in between your lines, a REAL fan would feel differently towards the extras. I don't believe that being part of a fan is to be completely blind to what is good and what is bad, which is basically what you are saying to me.

Yes, I am interested in anime. I'd say I'm more interested than most people here. I also do love to play devils advocate though. I just feel that the opinions I usher here are the opinion of the majority of anime viewers. It's just that in an anime forum, it will seem like the majority of users here are the type that watch fansubs and goes out to buy loads of anime goods.

You are not an exception in spreading the word, but the end result is that it causes a similar effect to pirating. You want the series to do well, but if whoever you tell about the series decides to download the fansubs, it does not really help the people who made it.

Originally Posted by bayoab

FIXED and at DVD quality, you can only fit between 4-6 episodes on a DVD depending on the show.

You didn't really have to fix that. It should have been apparent that I was talking about normal quality fansub releases, not normal quality DVDs that are released on the shelves. I'm pretty sure anime users have the intelligence to figure out that one DVD is not going to hold 26 episodes of a real DVD quality series. Most anime fans have probably tried to burn a series on DVD in one time or another. That and I'm sure they've gone to the store to buy a DVD and seen that the DVD only has 4-6 episodes.

Originally Posted by -CaliphLysius-

Simple economics states that a larger market share does not necessarily correspond to higher profits for an industry, as it depends on the equilibrium price of the good on the market.

Too bad simple economics is only useful for describing simple things. The markets in question are not easily analyzed by using economic models or economic ideas. Economics is by no means an accurate description of equilibrium/profit/etc.

[the.Merines]

blahblahalotofpointlessrantingdeleted

I still don't think the article is pointing directly at fansubs, but rather streaming video sites.