Copyright infringement (DMCA) notices for unlicensed anime

[Mushi]

Hi all,

First post here. Been lurking on and off for a year or so. I've recently taken a deeper interest in anime and consequently have been spending more time at various web sites. This topic is one that certainly caught my attention!

I've been downloading fansub anime through Comcast for... geez, I don't know... over 3 years, maybe? I've always been a satisfied Comcast customer (Northwest US region), so I found this news to be rather alarming. Glad to see it doesn't quite seem to be as bad as first thought. Although, it's hard to say what the future holds and whether or not this is a portent of things to come.

Anyhow, oddly enough, I was poking around in the comcast.net Help Forum a couple weeks ago and noticed an interesting post in the "Connection" forum titled " Managing the Network to Support our Customers." Figured I'd post it here, FWIW...

10-23-2007

There have been many news reports speculating about how Comcast manages it network. It is important for us to provide you with the facts.

First, and most importantly, our customers have unfettered access to all the content, services, and applications on the Web. They use the Internet for downloading and uploading files, watching movies and videos, streaming music, sharing digital photos, accessing numerous peer-to-peer sites, VOIP applications like Vonage, and thousands of other applications online.

It’s also important that we make something very clear: Comcast does not block access to any Web site or applications, including peer-to-peer (P2P) services like BitTorrent. We also do not discriminate based on the type of content.

So, what do we do? We use the latest technologies to manage our network so that our customers continue to enjoy these applications. We do this because we feel it’s our responsibility to provide all of our customers with a good Internet experience.

As numerous studies show, peer-to-peer activity consumes a disproportionately large amount of network resources, and therefore poses the biggest challenge to maintaining a good broadband experience for all users – including the overwhelming majority of our customers who don’t use P2P applications.

We never prevent P2P activity, or block access to any P2P applications, but rather manage the network in such a way that this activity does not degrade the broadband experience for other users. Network management is absolutely essential to ensure the health of our network for all of our customers. All major ISPs manage their traffic in some way and many use similar tools.

Network management helps us protect our customers from things like spam, viruses, the negative effects of network congestion, or attacks to their PCs. As threats on the Internet continue to grow, we will do everything we can to ensure that our network management tools evolve and keep pace so that we continue to maintain a good, reliable online experience for our customers.

Mitch Bowling
Senior Vice President
Comcast Online

Thanks to all who have contributed to this thread. It's been a very interesting read, and I appreciate the mature and informative nature of the discussion.

[grgspunk]

Originally Posted by Mushi

Hi all,

First post here. Been lurking on and off for a year or so. I've recently taken a deeper interest in anime and consequently have been spending more time at various web sites. This topic is one that certainly caught my attention!

I've been downloading fansub anime through Comcast for... geez, I don't know... over 3 years, maybe? I've always been a satisfied Comcast customer (Northwest US region), so I found this news to be rather alarming. Glad to see it doesn't quite seem to be as bad as first thought. Although, it's hard to say what the future holds and whether or not this is a portent of things to come.

Anyhow, oddly enough, I was poking around in the comcast.net Help Forum a couple weeks ago and noticed an interesting post in the "Connection" forum titled " Managing the Network to Support our Customers." Figured I'd post it here, FWIW...



Thanks to all who have contributed to this thread. It's been a very interesting read, and I appreciate the mature and informative nature of the discussion.

Though the whole thing was a result of BayTSP screwing up, I wouldn't trust them in the slightest if I were you, considering the complaints people have been saying regarding Bittorrent downloads. Instead of asking "do you prevent P2P downloads", I'd recommend rephrasing the question to "do you sometimes slow down/inhibit P2P downloads" or something more subtle, and see what response you get.

[Vexx]

aye... but the security community has direct evidence that Comcast is executing "man in the middle" RST attacks on torrents (see Slashdot and other technical sites).

So they aren't "blocking" anything... they're just forging packets that tear up connection sessions like torrents, Lotus Notes, and other applications.

As the appropriate analysts have said elsewhere, either he doesn't understand what his technical people are doing... or more likely he's being deliberately misleading by using language that sidesteps the analytical evidence of their packet streams.

[Mushi]

Originally Posted by grgspunk

Instead of asking "do you prevent P2P downloads", I'd recommend rephrasing the question to "do you sometimes slow down/inhibit P2P downloads" or something more subtle, and see what response you get.

Sorry, I should have clarified. That post that I quoted is a 'sticky' in that particular help forum. It wasn't a reply to a question anyone asked. Although, I've been told that it was likely in response to the complaints that have been going around.

I just thought it seemed relevant that you have a Senior Vice President making an official statement that they don't "discriminate based on the type of content." But then, I haven't done a lot of reading on the technical analysis mentioned here.

All I know is that I get BitTorrent download rates up to 200 kB/s and better some times and I'm a pretty happy camper with that.

I would personally like to see the anime studios go to direct distribution with downloads from their own sites. Offer the first episode for free then charge a modest price for the rest. One of the studios ought to be willing to take a risk and try that with at least one series.

For me, if I can't download it, I'll probably never see it. If I don't see it, I'll never buy it. The anime DVDs that I do own is stuff I saw as fansubs first.

[[DOT].L]

... And I missed this whole fiasco 'cuz I live in Canada. Still, I have to admit it sure is something to read this thread from the very beginning to the very end at 3 o'clock in the morning with a 25 page term paper due in 6 hours. This thread allowed to me see the light of day again even in the darkest hours of my life (ie, all-nighters). So, I say thank you to all you wonderful people.

-p.s. I apologize if the blurb above makes no sense. Blame the Red Bull and Expresso.

[Saleh]

Originally Posted by DarkMirage

It's merely a natural consequence. I don't think this changes things in anyway whatsoever. It may not be helpful in any way, but it certainly won't gain Odex much sympathy either. I think a reasonable person wouldn't just go "hacking is bad, therefore this validates everything Odex has done". I think that at least some people would give more thoughts to what Odex did to incur such wrath.

At this point it really depends on Odex("Victims") and their interpretation of this event since they will be getting better news coverage than before and law is in their favor if they decide to take it to next level. Fact remains that it was first reported on AS that odex got defaced.

[Ikisaki]

First things first, I got the same email from this BayTSP corporation, and I don't use/have comcast cable internet. So That automatically quelches the possibility of comcast using this to get most of you from using bittorrent.

Secondly, now we have some people saying that this was a mistake from baytsp and this should have only been limited to those living in singapore. Someone needs to take one for the team and see if its okay to still download/seed/use torrents. As it stands, Its going to take more than a newspaper ad or word of mouth to have me believe that this was just a screwup and wont happen again. What makes this really fucked up is that once you're flagged by your isp, they're naturally going to start keeping tabs on you as to keep themselves out of legal trouble. Thats the real problem. A person that didn't normally use that much bandwith (such as myself) now becomes a target. I don't know much about how an ISP conducts themselves in regards to issues like these, but how likely is it that now they'll start looking into what I actually download now, or do they only look into it themselves if a corporation (such as BAYTSP) sends them an email on copyright infringement?

Third, and Last on this post, I know I am a newbie and all that, which means i have no real right to talk shit about how you guys post, but we need some direction here and not debates on "my knowledge of the law/interwebz iz bettar than urs".

Should we stop resorting to torrents for our anime fix? Should we respond to the email link that BayTSP sent? Should we contact our ISP's? Or should we just wait till this blows over and download a month or two from now. IMHO those are the questions that need to be answered for peace of mind.

Worst come to worst though, The anime I got hit with was bleach, and to be honest, i lost interest in it for a bit. If it turns out that this was no fuckup and this company really meant to send those out, I wont get my subs from DB anymore and probably just resort back to DC++.

I hope that someone can give a good answer to these questions.

[Quarkboy]

Originally Posted by Ikisaki

[Questions]

ISPs really could care less (for the most part) about what you do online, except the amount of bandwidth you use up. The DMCA basically shields them from prosecution as long as they send you notices when requested, ala what happened here (even though it turned out to be false and frankly, probably illegal). They do not generally have the man-power or the time to go "looking" at what you are doing on line, even if you are singled out with a notice like this. If you have a very small ISP or live on a university campus, however, this may not be the case.

Remember, the ISP DOES want to keep you as a customer (unless you use too much bandwidth). So as long as they comply with the law and pass on notices, they're happy. Probably.

[FatPianoBoy]

Meh, I never stopped downloading, and I never received an e-mail, throttled connection, or anything. I'd say it's perfectly safe already, though I might be feeling different if I'd been directly affected.

[hobbes_fan]

Originally Posted by Calawain

Whoa whoa whoa, hold your horses here.

1) Downloading anime does not in any way lead to a criminal conviction. Please keep in mind the difference between a civil suit and a criminal indictment. Copyright/trademark/etc violations of this nature are civil cases, which means if you lose you owe them money, that's it.

2) Anime is a niche market, of course it's going to cost more than 24. The producers of 24 have millions pouring in from TV deals and commercials, the DVD sales serve to make a little money on the side and to get people to watch the show on TV. Anime is primarily a DVD profit zone that serves a much much much smaller audience, so of course it costs more. While I really can't speak for the Australian import costs, that's just the consequence of having so few fans of something in your country maybe?

3) And last time I checked, watching a show on cable costs money, so yeah, watching a show on TV "costs something to be a fan." My cable bill is 50 bucks per month, dunno about yours.

4) I really don't see what's wrong with paying for a show to be stored on your HDD, that's what fansubs are right? If you want it on DVD you pay more per episode because it's a higher quality. Actually, you can currently buy some already licensed anime shows that are medium quality from Viz, ADV, and Funimation, although the selection so far is limited. What that needs to progress to is offering it downloadable as it airs, and subtitled.

1. It depends where you are. Check your laws. PM Me for more details.
2. Nope cdjapan listed at 9800 yen (roughly $98USD for the DVD not HDDVD version months ago). That's worldwide for all international orders, heaven help those fans with crappy exchange rates. This has and was one of the most popular mecha franchises in Japan and in the west. Last time I checked anime also had advertising revenue in Japan. If they're betting the house on just one income stream DVD sales, well that's pretty poor business practice.
3. 24 shown on free to air tv (I think you guys call it public access). Even if your cable bill is $50, is anime all you get in that month? For my $50 I have 50 channels of 24/7 sport, movies, documentaries and music. I get maybe 6 anime shows on two cartoon channels. Point? Value. That's a hell of a lot if entertainment for $1.50 a day.
4. It's a personal choice, I like the extras, I like the packaging. I collect dvd's as part of this hobby, it's not like people can walk in to my house and see I like anime by staring at the PC. Downloads don't give me the feeling of ownership. We all know speedsubbing ranges from poor to ok in results. Don't we wait around for fansubs? from my experience it's usually a week or two delay for the high quality subs.

To be honest with you I feel most ISP's don't want to co-operate with this. residential accounts with 20+gig monthly allowances is where they make a lot of $$ mostly gamers and torrenters from my experience need such bandwidth. get rid of BT traffic and they lose a lot of revenue.

[cyth]

Originally Posted by hobbes_fan

2. Nope cdjapan listed at 9800 yen (roughly $98USD for the DVD not HDDVD version months ago). That's worldwide for all international orders, heaven help those fans with crappy exchange rates. This has and was one of the most popular mecha franchises in Japan and in the west. Last time I checked anime also had advertising revenue in Japan. If they're betting the house on just one income stream DVD sales, well that's pretty poor business practice.

1. Heaven help those who buy from sites without nifty discounts and point systems. (hint: CDJapan is expensive for pretty much everything other than CD music because their prices are set at MSRP)
2. Ad revenue is just one of those streams, and a lot smaller than video unit sales and licensing revenue (toys, accessories, clothes, foreign distribution etc.).

Point? Value.

Of course, the consumer is the one who decides whether the product/service he wishes to invest in has enough value to justify the purchase, but you see, there's a clear difference between your value system and mine (or anyone else's for that matter). I could care less for the programming my cable package is offering, and I'd rather invest its portion of the budget to a single anime DVD purchase, simply because I place very little value in my cable subscription (good thing I'm not paying for it). If I had the opportunity to buy and download subtitled anime legally at decent quality and time frame, at $1.50 - $2 an episode, I would probably do so and say goodbye to cable. Monthly fees certainly wouldn't differ that much from being subscribed to two to three anime channels. ($2 an episode... 11 shows this season... 5 weeks in a month... $110 a month is pretty reasonable, all in all)

[WanderingKnight]

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

I don't think it's equivalent to murder, but I do think it's pretty reprehensible. I pity the website developer who'll have to explain how the site was hacked and spend hours of his or her time trying to fix the problem.

Of course, I agree with that view, but I was a bit shocked at the direct comparison with murder...

[toshirodragon]

I grabbed the reamining three Suteki Tantei Labrynth eps soon as I read about this. I've been steadily downloading and uploading every day and nothing from Comcrap.

Of course they'd probably hit my hubby first... his torrent usage is enormous!

[hobbes_fan]

Originally Posted by Toua

1. Heaven help those who buy from sites without nifty discounts and point systems. (hint: CDJapan is expensive for pretty much everything other than CD music because their prices are set at MSRP)
2. Ad revenue is just one of those streams, and a lot smaller than video unit sales and licensing revenue (toys, accessories, clothes, foreign distribution etc.).
Of course, the consumer is the one who decides whether the product/service he wishes to invest in has enough value to justify the purchase, but you see, there's a clear difference between your value system and mine(or anyone else's for that matter). I could care less for the programming my cable package is offering, and I'd rather invest its portion of the budget to a single anime DVD purchase, simply because I place very little value in my cable subscription (good thing I'm not paying for it). If I had the opportunity to buy and download subtitled anime legally at decent quality and time frame, at $1.50 - $2 an episode, I would probably do so and say goodbye to cable. Monthly fees certainly wouldn't differ that much from being subscribed to two to three anime channels. ($2 an episode... 11 shows this season... 5 weeks in a month... $110 a month is pretty reasonable, all in all)

1. This is an R2 dvd you realise, never released outside Japan? Rightstuf, animecornerstore and other point places I've tried either don't have it or have to import from Japan and Amazon.co.jp have never listed for less $76USD last I checked even with discounts. And this is not just for this particular DVD, Turn A gundam, school rumble and etc etc etc are all around $60-$80 USD for 3 eps. Even with discounts. You seem to forget that point systems are really a way to ensure you keep spending $ at the same place, and in order for point systems to work you need to have already spent a fair bit of $ already.

2. See there's your answer you don't pay for it. You seem to also forget that internet costs $ from what it seems around $50 for high speed internet only so add that to your subscription fee or whoever pays it, some of us work for a living though. So add that on top. A download system is fine, It's a cheap(er) alternative and I would expect it to be cheaper than DVD's as there is less overhead. However you lose things that I value from dvd's.

For any of this to happen though basically they'll have to completely change the way they do business, studios will basically have to bypass the licensing systems they have now. Censorship is another potential issue, somethings are general audience in Japan but wouldn't be anywhere else. But by doing so what incentive would people have to buy DVD's? I'm an exception to the rule, but honestly, when the choice is $9 USD for 3 eps vd $80USD what incentive does the primary market: The Japanese have to buy DVD's? Because you couldn't just offer these prices to the international community and not offer it to your primary audience. It'd be good for a Video on Demand Service, but as it stands there's a lot of things that need to happen before we see anything like this.

Personally I reckon every on AS should just chip in and form their own licensing company. Go legit, in a way, offer something that no other place offers, a true for the fans by the fans ideology.

[cyth]

Originally Posted by hobbes_fan

1. This is an R2 dvd you realise, never released outside Japan? [...]

Of course I do. But I also realize people who collect R2s don't obsess over one single DVD disc and their prices (at least I don't). They buy regularly, hence point systems are valid ways of saving money. You should check out other places like HMV. Big savings, point system, relatively cheap shipping.

you don't pay for it.

And you don't have to either, but you do because you value the content it offers. Simply cancel the service and it's gone. I was never suggesting you have the financial power to spend it on services you don't value (example being anime downloads). Quite the opposite. My intent was to say not everybody holds the same value system as you do, since you've lashed onto the topic like a cornered animal. If you think the price of your cable subscription is justified for your value system, so be it, but I don't hold the same opinion about cable as you do. Similarly, I think the $1.5 price per episode download is justified for my own value system.

You could've spared me the lesson on household economics though (I pitch in a portion of my paycheck just like every other adult in my household).

Personally I reckon every on AS should just chip in and form their own licensing company. Go legit, in a way, offer something that no other place offers, a true for the fans by the fans ideology.

Now I'm just feeling sorry I ever participated in this little offtopic.

[Calawain]

Originally Posted by hobbes_fan

1. It depends where you are. Check your laws. PM Me for more details.
2. Nope cdjapan listed at 9800 yen (roughly $98USD for the DVD not HDDVD version months ago). That's worldwide for all international orders, heaven help those fans with crappy exchange rates. This has and was one of the most popular mecha franchises in Japan and in the west. Last time I checked anime also had advertising revenue in Japan. If they're betting the house on just one income stream DVD sales, well that's pretty poor business practice.
3. 24 shown on free to air tv (I think you guys call it public access). Even if your cable bill is $50, is anime all you get in that month? For my $50 I have 50 channels of 24/7 sport, movies, documentaries and music. I get maybe 6 anime shows on two cartoon channels. Point? Value. That's a hell of a lot if entertainment for $1.50 a day.
4. It's a personal choice, I like the extras, I like the packaging. I collect dvd's as part of this hobby, it's not like people can walk in to my house and see I like anime by staring at the PC. Downloads don't give me the feeling of ownership. We all know speedsubbing ranges from poor to ok in results. Don't we wait around for fansubs? from my experience it's usually a week or two delay for the high quality subs.

To be honest with you I feel most ISP's don't want to co-operate with this. residential accounts with 20+gig monthly allowances is where they make a lot of $$ mostly gamers and torrenters from my experience need such bandwidth. get rid of BT traffic and they lose a lot of revenue.

1) Well once again this is primarily about Comcast, which is a US company. So in the US copyright infringement of this nature is not a criminal charge. I feel sorry for countries where it is.

2) "Popular mecha franchise" is still an anime, it is still a niche market. Mecha anime appeals to an extremely small portion of the world compared to 24, thus it's a niche market that relies primarily on DVD sales, of course it's going to be more expensive. And if you are referring to GITS, I just bought a R1 season 1 box set for 36 american dollars shipped, so I'm not sure why you are buying the R2 DVDs.

3) Well it's sure not shown on public access here. But even if it was, it is still "paid" for by your cable bill. And in addition to the 1 dollar per channel per day you have to watch commercials. Those count as paying for the show too, they all add up to a primary revenue stream for shows.

4) So wait around for the DVDs if you don't like downloading. Some of us don't mind our episodes on computer, which are playable on DVD players if converted correctly anyways.

[Vexx]

Originally Posted by Mushi

All I know is that I get BitTorrent download rates up to 200 kB/s and better some times and I'm a pretty happy camper with that.
.

The problem isn't usually with DOWNLOADS ... its with your ability as a Comcast user to provide the UPLOAD that the rest of the torrent cloud needs in order for bittorrent to work.

Torrents work by SHARING data about a file amongst a cloud of users --- if too many people aren't uploading, the cloud fails.

[Mushi]

Originally Posted by Vexx

The problem isn't usually with DOWNLOADS ... its with your ability as a Comcast user to provide the UPLOAD that the rest of the torrent cloud needs in order for bittorrent to work.

Understood. And, yes, I do leave torrents running after they complete. Current one is uploading at around 40 kB/s. Nothing stellar, but not bad.

But, there's that nagging feeling that uploading is somehow worse than downloading and with that comes the concern of "being watched" more by leaving torrents running. Although, I guess this recent fiasco just shows that "they" can watch you any time they want. If "they" want to make an example it's just a matter of "who do they pick on?"

This thread has given me some relief. The discussion here about the process by which users are notified first, given a chance to correct the "mistake," etc. helps me to understand that the men in black are not likely going to show up at my door in the middle of the night and seize my computer for a first offense.... I hope.

[aohige]

Originally Posted by Mushi

the men in black are not likely going to show up at my door in the middle of the night and seize my computer for a first offense.... I hope.

We're still going to. We're just not telling you we're going to.

[WolfCoder]

Originally Posted by aohige

We're still going to. We're just not telling you we're going to.

Oh teh noes don't take my megahurtz away!