Real life gundam

[supperrfreek]

well on the page I'm using for the leo it says it weighs approximately 7 tons unloaded and is powered by nuclear fusion (the type is unspecified) and the weapon probably weighs approximately three tons, and the thruster is probably around the same at lightest. really we're coming to a situation where the leo is a about 13 tons. The maximum weight is "unknown" so we can only infer that going from 7 to 50 tons is kinda odd. that's an increase by an exponent of 2, I don't think there is enough evidence to show that a machine cannon and thruster system could raise the weight by that much. http://mahq.net/mecha/gundam/index.htm wikipedia has the same http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leo_%28mobile_suit%29 .
Perhaps the first model on wikipedia is what your thinking of, the model with the larger dober gun instead of the smaller machine cannon or beam cannon.
It would be a better idea to use ATGM's but moving to another rooftop would be a little harder and take more time, depending on the amount of time it took the target could have moved, the ms could (while moving via thrusters) could shoot at another target, even though making a better target of itself. it's a catch 22 for my position, despite the mobility of the suit its size makes it a bigger target and moving only makes it worse despite the fact it can shoot while moving.
I'd say even before Nuremburg they found out the Nazi high command's mistakes (the late response to D day, the failed Atom bomb project and failing to take England out of the war before adding another front).
As well as the role another question is Cost for Research and Development, production, maintenance, upgrades, and logistics.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by supperrfreek

well on the page I'm using for the leo it says it weighs approximately 7 tons unloaded and is powered by nuclear fusion (the type is unspecified) and the weapon probably weighs approximately three tons, and the thruster is probably around the same at lightest. really we're coming to a situation where the leo is a about 13 tons. The maximum weight is "unknown" so we can only infer that going from 7 to 50 tons is kinda odd. that's an increase by an exponent of 2, I don't think there is enough evidence to show that a machine cannon and thruster system could raise the weight by that much. http://mahq.net/mecha/gundam/index.htm wikipedia has the same http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leo_%28mobile_suit%29 .

MAHQ's numbers are quite interesting and fun, but they're largely based on the information contained in model kits, and are subject to correction and change. For the most part, they're quite acceptable unless using them literally when they are contradicted by the show they're in. In this case, the Leo's empty mass isn't contradicted, but the evidence indicates that its loaded mass is much greater than the empty mass would suggest:

Fact 1: An object denser than water will sink while an object less dense than water will float.
Fact 2: Based on its dimensions, the Leo has a volume of at least 50m^3.
Fact 3: Water has a density of 1000kg/m^3.
Fact 4: In episode 1 of Wing, we see a Leo grapple Wing Gundam, and they both sink like rocks.
Observation: In order for Fact 4 to occur, it's probable that both machines would have to be denser than water - while it's possible that one is much denser than the other, this is very unlikely given that their empty masses and dimensions are very similar.
Conclusion: Since the Leo should be denser than water, it would have to mass at least 50m^3 * 1000kg/m^3, or 50000kg.

This conclusion is sort of inescapable unless you want to totally discount episode 1 of Gundam Wing (and any other scene where we see Leos under water).

Originally Posted by supperrfreek

It would be a better idea to use ATGM's but moving to another rooftop would be a little harder and take more time, depending on the amount of time it took the target could have moved, the ms could (while moving via thrusters) could shoot at another target, even though making a better target of itself. it's a catch 22 for my position, despite the mobility of the suit its size makes it a bigger target and moving only makes it worse despite the fact it can shoot while moving.

Mobile suits would stand out far too much to put on rooftops. They'd attract too much fire and die too quickly to be of any use.

Originally Posted by supperrfreek

As well as the role another question is Cost for Research and Development, production, maintenance, upgrades, and logistics.

This is true for all weapons systems. Unfortunately for mecha, they fare extremely poorly on all these counts.



Off-topic WWII stuff:

Originally Posted by supperrfreek

I'd say even before Nuremburg they found out the Nazi high command's mistakes

In hindsight, these don't really stand out as the Nazis' worst blunders:

Originally Posted by supperrfreek

the late response to D day

Of the ones you listed, this really is a German mistake, but it's not one that can really be faulted to them. Other than the late response the on D-Day itself, the Germans also held back troops for a possible Allied attack at Calais. They realized their mistake fairly quickly, but were still slow in transferring troops to Normandy - but that's mostly because of the effectiveness of the Allied strategic bombing and the work of the Free French.

Originally Posted by supperrfreek

the failed Atom bomb project

This is one where failing was better than succeeding. Heisenberg was so flawed in his theories that the project would never have produced an atomic bomb before the war ended. He was so far off that historians have speculated that he was actively trying to sabotage the project. The funny thing is that if the German project had made more progress, their bomb would have failed spectacularly. Even worse, the Germans didn't have the resources to pursue the project to it's conclusion, and even if they built a bomb, they didn't have a bomber with which to deliver it.

Originally Posted by supperrfreek

failing to take England out of the war before adding another front

This isn't a mistake at all. The only chance they had of taking out the U.K. was Sealion, and Sealion was totally impossible to pull off. If Germany was to attack the Soviet Union, 1941 was the very best time to attack; any later, and the Red Army would have been measurably much stronger than the Wehrmacht.

[minase]

well... IMHO, Labors and Wanzers are having more chance to realization than mobile suit
many labors in Patlabor are nothing more than a legged-tractors, like Hercules for example
and wanzers ? well... i think wanzer would be a good machine in jungle/swamps, where tanks can never be use

[Nerroth]

Originally Posted by Tak

they are the only Asian country with F-15s, after all

Not quite.

Israel, Saudi Arabia and South Korea fly F-15s, too - plus Singapore has 24 on order.


Japan are the only ones who don't have a variant of the Strike Eagle, though.

[supperrfreek]

It's hard to argue that 50 english tonnes can be supported by a a high rise but weight and mass aside, they would make a big target but an ms that high up could take out targets which are quite far off and anything directly under it is dead. and they would attract fire anywhere like any vehicle which your opponent wants to destroy. it's just they make bigger targets, meaning they'd have to fire back at an equal (if not greater rate than what's firing at it).
Mecha need to be tested beforehand like any other equipment to prove effectiveness not battle tested, that comes later, but they need to be tested to prove other forms of efficiency and effectiveness.

This is one where failing was better than succeeding. Heisenberg was so flawed in his theories that the project would never have produced an atomic bomb before the war ended. He was so far off that historians have speculated that he was actively trying to sabotage the project. The funny thing is that if the German project had made more progress, their bomb would have failed spectacularly. Even worse, the Germans didn't have the resources to pursue the project to it's conclusion, and even if they built a bomb, they didn't have a bomber with which to deliver it.

this was a mistake because they had around two or three projects to make an atomic bomb going on at the same time, had they consolidated they may have got better results.

This isn't a mistake at all. The only chance they had of taking out the U.K. was Sealion, and Sealion was totally impossible to pull off. If Germany was to attack the Soviet Union, 1941 was the very best time to attack; any later, and the Red Army would have been measurably much stronger than the Wehrmacht.

Honestly the Soviet army probably would have stayed in the same state for a while and kept focusing on Finland, the task at hand.
And had the Germans held out and Choked Britain with submarines and battleships as well as spread them out in Africa with Italy and not dragged the US into the war (Japan) they could have pulled off a win.

[Dean_the_Young]

Originally Posted by supperrfreek

It's hard to argue that 50 english tonnes can be supported by a a high rise but weight and mass aside, they would make a big target but an ms that high up could take out targets which are quite far off and anything directly under it is dead. and they would attract fire anywhere like any vehicle which your opponent wants to destroy. it's just they make bigger targets, meaning they'd have to fire back at an equal (if not greater rate than what's firing at it).

Er, no it wouldn't. Not appreciably, anyway. An MS is not a stable gunnery platform; it can't fire the longer range guns, because those are too big/too much recoil to be "held." Going on top of a building, with nothing to brace against, is even worse.

And were something like a tank to be "right below it," that MS would be doomed as soon as the tank started releasing HE into the base of the building, or long range artillery starts knocking that building down.

Mecha need to be tested beforehand like any other equipment to prove effectiveness not battle tested, that comes later, but they need to be tested to prove other forms of efficiency and effectiveness.

Not really. With the rise of physics, computers, and a better understanding of the mechanics and actions of warfare, we can actually understand how something would work out before we do it. The problems of an MS are problems of physics and science and economic utility, not opportunity.

this was a mistake because they had around two or three projects to make an atomic bomb going on at the same time, had they consolidated they may have got better results.

Not really, because they were all working off the same erroneous foundation layed out by Heisenberg. Saying that combining all three (when only one got serious effort) would have succeeded is like saying that a tree with a rotten base would grow taller if all the limbs combined; it doesn't change the fact that the base alone will topple the tree.

Honestly the Soviet army probably would have stayed in the same state for a while and kept focusing on Finland, the task at hand.

The Red Army was undergoing an overhaul during Operation Barbarossa, after which it would have been more mechanized than the German Army, and had many more and better tanks. If Germany was going to attack Russia (as the Nazis were planning to do since making "Living Space" a campaign slogan), they couldn't have picked a better time really.

If you want to point errors in the German attack on the Soviet Union, it would be better to point out Hitler's time-wasting sidetrips rather than focusing on Moscow, or how Nazi policy turned being greeted as liberators from Russia into one of histories most successful insurgencies, or even how German infantry was woefully under-mechanized and how the Panzers took unneeded losses because infantry wasn't there to take care of Russian infantry when needed. But timing isn't one of the German flaws in the invasion of the USSR.

And had the Germans held out and Choked Britain with submarines and battleships as well as spread them out in Africa with Italy and not dragged the US into the war (Japan) they could have pulled off a win.

Someone needs to study history more. The submarines are arguable... except that the US was already fighting an undeclared naval war with Germany before Pearl, escorting convoys to Britain. And the German surface navy was completely out-classed by the British RN alone.

Africa was a losing game from the get-go for Germany, a back-theater in which Rommel became famous for victories despite his handicaps, not because of German interest. Outright German victory in Africa was more a pipedream than most anything else, and took more German resources than it did British (or American). The Allies could afford the sideshow, and it let them blood their men. Germany just was using resources better spent against the Russians.

And Japan's reasons for dragging the US into war were as much to not be forced under American economic dominance as much as anything else. After the American embargo, the only way for Japan to maintain it's military and empire was to get the resources it needed from the DEI (which required the Philippines as well, which meant war with the US), or to back out of China, leaving the very angry nationalists at their back door and basically signalling that the halls of Washington would decide the policy of Tokyo.

IE, it was as much a war for japan's sovereignty as for resources.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by supperrfreek

It's hard to argue that 50 english tonnes can be supported by a a high rise but weight and mass aside, they would make a big target but an ms that high up could take out targets which are quite far off and anything directly under it is dead. and they would attract fire anywhere like any vehicle which your opponent wants to destroy. it's just they make bigger targets, meaning they'd have to fire back at an equal (if not greater rate than what's firing at it).

The problem here is that it'd be spotted by everything from several kilometers away. It'd probably be targeted and knocked out before it even gets a shot off.

Originally Posted by supperrfreek

Mecha need to be tested beforehand like any other equipment to prove effectiveness not battle tested, that comes later, but they need to be tested to prove other forms of efficiency and effectiveness.

This is true only of viable weapon systems. Bipedal mecha have no appreciable advantage on existing platforms, so it'd be hard to classify them as viable.



Dean_the_Young already covered all the WWII points, so I won't go into any detail there.

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

If you want to point errors in the German attack on the Soviet Union, it would be better to point out Hitler's time-wasting sidetrips rather than focusing on Moscow, or how Nazi policy turned being greeted as liberators from Russia into one of histories most successful insurgencies, or even how German infantry was woefully under-mechanized and how the Panzers took unneeded losses because infantry wasn't there to take care of Russian infantry when needed.

For the most part, the entire German strategy to Barbarossa was a mess - it was wholly dependent on the Soviets collapsing. And when they didn't do so, the OKH literally had no plan for defeating the Soviets. Moreover, they underestimated the Red Army by a ridiculous degree.

[Dean_the_Young]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Dean_the_Young already covered all the WWII points, so I won't go into any detail there.


For the most part, the entire German strategy to Barbarossa was a mess - it was wholly dependent on the Soviets collapsing. And when they didn't do so, the OKH literally had no plan for defeating the Soviets. Moreover, they underestimated the Red Army by a ridiculous degree.

It came much closer than one might think. There was a BBC article not long ago which had some interviews with people even from the NKVD (if that was what it was then) who told of the panic that gripped. Moscow. The NKVD was basically let free to restore order by any means possible, and Stalin had a plane and train on standby at all times to evacuate from Moscow, and one witness told how one time Stalin went to the platform, and spent something like a half an hour pacing up and down and approaching the train, before he finally decided to go back to his office. Had Hitler not gone on his detours on his way to Moscow and gone closer to contest the city, I believe that Stalin would have likely abandoned the city and gone with his plan to regroup and fight from the East of the Urals, a huge victory for Germany and Hitler.

Now, whether that would have translated into a victory for Hitler in the East with Stalin so vulnerable and prone to losing power, I don't know. But it came much closer than most likely want to admit, and if Stalin basically abandons European Russia then that would cause major changes there, even if Russia bounced back from its industry that was bloodily moved from the far east.


However, that doesn't really change your point that the Nazi plan was largely reliant on a Soviet collapse, and that that is a horrible thing to bank on, but it did come dangerously close.

[4Tran]

I forgot to address this earlier:

Originally Posted by minase

well... IMHO, Labors and Wanzers are having more chance to realization than mobile suit
many labors in Patlabor are nothing more than a legged-tractors, like Hercules for example

Those machines would probably be easier to build than full-blown 18m mobile suits. However, I think the main difficulty would be finding a role for one. I suspect that only small bipedal mecha (<3-4m) will be able to find much of a niche.

Originally Posted by minase

and wanzers ? well... i think wanzer would be a good machine in jungle/swamps, where tanks can never be use

I'm not sure what your reasoning is. Any underbrush that will impede a tank is going to do the same thing to a wanzer. Moreover, there are amphibious tanks that will be much more useful in many such environments, while wanzers would likely have a hard time of it.



WWII Off-topic:

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

It came much closer than one might think. There was a BBC article not long ago which had some interviews with people even from the NKVD (if that was what it was then) who told of the panic that gripped. <SNIP>

Panic? Heck, they even evacuated the government to Kuibyshev in October! However, I wouldn't read too much into that since the Soviets didn't know the kind of difficulties the Germans were having at the same time. In September, the German forces were already over-extended, and their logistics train pushed beyond its limits. They could have tried to advance on Moscow, but their chances of success were exceedingly low. Moreover, that'd mean that they'd have to forgo destroying the Soviet forces at Kiev, and an extra 600,000 men on the flank of the the Moscow salient would have been devastating.

[Uncreative]

Spoiler for the real reason the germans lost:

[GundamMold]

I think you have to be Japanese to join the Gundam army. Since they will use it to invade Korea and China ^^

[Papaya]

Amazing someone would post crap like that D:

@Uncreative:
I know (?) that pic isn't real (???), but are there any actual pictures of Nazi walker prototypes?

[supperrfreek]

honestly the nazi's were pretty creative I wouldn't doubt they thought of it.
But if someone's got the idea it might work, let's let them try it and if they fail we can laugh at their expense

[Dean_the_Young]

Originally Posted by supperrfreek

honestly the nazi's were pretty creative I wouldn't doubt they thought of it.
But if someone's got the idea it might work, let's let them try it and if they fail we can laugh at their expense

Once again, there would be no point. Even simple tests will tell.

For example, why is it that bipedals are the slowest creatures in nature? And why wouldn't that hold true in mechanics, not least because it is a measure of mechanics?

[Dan the Man]

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

Once again, there would be no point. Even simple tests will tell.

For example, why is it that bipedals are the slowest creatures in nature? And why wouldn't that hold true in mechanics, not least because it is a measure of mechanics?

Well, we can outrun turtles, so we're not THE slowest... but we are pretty damn slow. Especially compared to large cats and other predators... And bullets...

I suppose the greatest argument for humanoid mechs is their supposed adaptability. I suppose the human form allows a certain degree of versatility in traversing unusual terrain, perhaps if there were a need to climb up a steep rock face or something else rediculous like that. I guess the human figure would also allow a limitless amount of firing angles, with no vertical limitations like turrets.

For those two high points in humanoid mechs, both aren't really worth much. Tough terrain can be overcome by aircraft and infantry, and mech maneuverability would require untold amounts of computer programming for maintaining balance and keeping controls easy enough to be used effectively in combat. If there are any advantages to human mechs, it's beyond our current capabilities at least.

[Papaya]

Well, the only viable explanation I could think of is if in the future, armor development greatly outpaced weapons development such that guns and cannons would have little to no effect on armor.

[reinloch]

Originally Posted by Dan the Man

Well, we can outrun turtles, so we're not THE slowest... but we are pretty damn slow. Especially compared to large cats and other predators... And bullets...

I suppose the greatest argument for humanoid mechs is their supposed adaptability. I suppose the human form allows a certain degree of versatility in traversing unusual terrain, perhaps if there were a need to climb up a steep rock face or something else rediculous like that. I guess the human figure would also allow a limitless amount of firing angles, with no vertical limitations like turrets.

For those two high points in humanoid mechs, both aren't really worth much. Tough terrain can be overcome by aircraft and infantry, and mech maneuverability would require untold amounts of computer programming for maintaining balance and keeping controls easy enough to be used effectively in combat. If there are any advantages to human mechs, it's beyond our current capabilities at least.

I think...

Complexity, albeit true, is not the low point of a Gundam-like humanoid mech. It has been pointed out endlessly that the humanoid form is inherently flawed as a weapons platform compared to the MBT - mobility, silhouette, stability, protection.

The so-called versatility of the humanoid mech in combat, i.e., traversing extreme terrain, omnidirectional firing, *gulps* dodging direct fire are just myths.

[Dean_the_Young]

Originally Posted by Papaya

Well, the only viable explanation I could think of is if in the future, armor development greatly outpaced weapons development such that guns and cannons would have little to no effect on armor.

Except, of course, that this would mean that you need bigger guns at shorter ranges to blow stuff up. Which means that you need, guess what? The best weapons platform to hold those big guns.

[Dying Rose]

Released some time ago a gundum from the original series was built in japan it moves but it doesn't have any viable weapon systems now do you think that this would be good idea or not?

[Hs Vi Germania]

Are you kidding? If it's true I wouldn't think it would be good.