AnimeSuki Forums

JAppi · 2004-03-20, 23:56

I've noticed that there has been alot of discussion about subtitles and the effects, so I figured we could start a big massive giant thread about it!

Hurrah for threads!

teh_suck · 2004-03-21, 00:33

Regarding Karaoke: If you want to sing, you shouldn't need the bouncing ball by episode two or three, and if you don't want to sing you probably don't even want the romaji, let alone to have it changing colour. If you're doing it at all, at least be plain about it. You're not Shaft, or Mad House, or even Maki Pro. People watch anime because they like anime, not because they like your filters.
Regarding other effects: As they say in art, less is more. If someone screams in anguish, making the font 10% bigger is a small enough change that the effect will be primarily subconscious. Conversely, multiple layers of overlapping, alpha-blended scaling text is just ridiculous.
And as a side note, I highly doubt that many groups who use, say, After Effects or Vegas Video actually paid for them, which upsets me on another level entirely.

SpikeS095 · 2004-03-21, 00:38

A related topic:
Op/Ed Styles and Effects

JAppi · 2004-03-21, 00:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpikeS095

A related topic:
Op/Ed Styles and Effects

Damn, this topic has already been started!

Well, maybe one of the nice mods would be willing to merge the two threads?

Edit: This topic is actually intended to cover *all* aspects of typesetting. The previous topics only covered one specific aspect of it. Such as fonts, or Karaoke, etc etc. Feel free to talk about *all* aspects of Typesettings.

aceleader · 2004-03-21, 01:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by teh_suck

And as a side note, I highly doubt that many groups who use, say, After Effects or Vegas Video actually paid for them, which upsets me on another level entirely.

My copy of After Effect 6 is legal... unless you consider horribly raping the student discount for it dirty(pretty nice steal with that discount)... >.>

As for the karaoke, all I've got to say is, no more bullets. just... no more bullets.

complich8 · 2004-03-21, 02:31

a lot of really neat effects are done with free software (textsub). There's a small subset of things you can do in ae that you can't do in textsub, and most typesetters I know tend to avoid ae because they don't want to be stuck being both typesetter and encoder (laziness wins!

).

I know one typesetter/encoder who does use ae in my group, and I'm pretty sure his copy is legit, albeit student discounted.

Zarxrax · 2004-03-21, 03:07

I think "effects" don't really have a place in fansubs. I like karaoke, but only if it's kept simple. Just a basic light up or fade in please. Being a typesetter myself, I make it my priority to make the visuals integrate as seamlessly into the animation as I possibly can. This is the way it should be done, IMO...

Tabiree · 2004-03-21, 06:05

I just like text for the bottom of the screen, to tell me whats being said or whats being written. Beyond that, it's pretty irrelevant

JAppi · 2004-03-21, 11:32

The only "effect" that bothers me is when they do that damned "Presented by (group name)" underneath the title. The group is not presenting anything. They had nothing to do with the show, they simply aubbed it. I think it would be more appropriate to just write "Subtilted by (group name)"

ChibiDusk · 2004-03-21, 12:24

In the Opening and Ending, for credits use small fonts, try and match up the fonts/colors to look like the actually belong there, and match with the original japanese credits.

For Karaoke, Put the english at the bottom of the screen. Put the japnese at the top.
If characters are included as well, make them under the japanese or scrool along the side of the screen. Again, fonts and colors match with the mood of the anime.

For actual subtitles, make the font white and color cordinate the speaking.
So say we have three people.
a: red hair
b: blue hair
c: green hair

when a speaks it would be white with a red border, and when b speaks it should be white with a blue border, etc.

This is the best way to subtitle stuff.

lavalyn · 2004-03-21, 12:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChibiDusk

In the Opening and Ending, for credits use small fonts, try and match up the fonts/colors to look like the actually belong there, and match with the original japanese credits.

For Karaoke, Put the english at the bottom of the screen. Put the japnese at the top.
If characters are included as well, make them under the japanese or scrool along the side of the screen. Again, fonts and colors match with the mood of the anime.

For actual subtitles, make the font white and color cordinate the speaking.
So say we have three people.
a: red hair
b: blue hair
c: green hair

when a speaks it would be white with a red border, and when b speaks it should be white with a blue border, etc.

This is the best way to subtitle stuff.

Spoken like a true typesetter with too much time on his hands. I would say that these principles easily violate the tenet of "simplicity is king." Unless your purpose is to argue that fansub typesetting should be superior to DVD typesetting in both design and execution.

Fansub modifications should be non-intrusive above all. I still shudder when I see, say, Triad's "Gunslinger Girl" title screen from Episode 1. Or of any changing colours in subtitle text.

ChibiDusk · 2004-03-21, 12:54

Hm, what's wrong with The Triad's Gunslinger girl?
They put effort into it, and it looks nice. Looks amazing IMO.

lavalyn · 2004-03-21, 13:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChibiDusk

Hm, what's wrong with The Triad's Gunslinger girl?
They put effort into it, and it looks nice. Looks amazing IMO.

Easy: it's not The Triad's Gunslinger Girl. They are at most a group of subtitlers, which I would say is not a lot of effort in the grand scheme of an episode. Too flashy, too self-centered. No appreciation for what the animators have done.

JAppi · 2004-03-21, 13:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by lavalyn

Easy: it's not The Triad's Gunslinger Girl. They are at most a group of subtitlers, which I would say is not a lot of effort in the grand scheme of an episode. Too flashy, too self-centered. No appreciation for what the animators have done.

For once I agree with you lavalyn

Spoiler:

Yaoi_Pocky · 2004-03-21, 14:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChibiDusk

For actual subtitles, make the font white and color cordinate the speaking.
So say we have three people.
a: red hair
b: blue hair
c: green hair

when a speaks it would be white with a red border, and when b speaks it should be white with a blue border, etc.

This is the best way to subtitle stuff.

What if we have two characters, X and Y, who appear in the same scene and have the same hair colour? How are we to differentiate who is speaking?

A few examples (among many) include: BPS and Misao in Battle Programmer Shirase; [licensedExamples]Kazuki and Jubei in Getbackers; and the hair colours for the Initial D characters don't vary all that much - and even substituting car colours for hair colours wouldn't work, because a) more than one person can drive the same coloured car and b) there are non-driver characters in Initial D.[/licensedExamples]

And there's the issue of trying to colour-code lines by character, when there are so many characters in the anime that you're working on...I don't watch Naruto myself, but if a typesetter for a group doing Naruto was asked to colour-code lines by character, I'd feel really sorry for him or her...

CompShrink · 2004-03-21, 14:29

This isn't an effect per se, but I hate when the subtitles overlap the original text in a series, such as kareoke that covers the "sing along" japanese text originally at the bottom. One reason I like to watch anime is to work on my Japanese language skills, and that just kills the reading part. Not to mention it looks just plain lazy, like they didn't feel like finding the appropriate font/size/breaking point to make it not overlap.

I also think that Japanese should be with Japanese, when there is already Japanese kareoke at the bottom, don't put the translation under it and have the romaji just hanging out at the top of the screen. That's a minor personal preference, I know, but it just seems a logical thing.

LBW · 2004-03-21, 14:58

I actually like those logo's and effect and the such. Some people call it stroking one's ego, but when I see things like that I usually start wishing I could do that too. XD

Instead of keeping up the continious bashing, give the people a little praise for their perdy logo's and stuff. x)

JediNight · 2004-03-21, 15:39

I think that a lot of karaoke has gone overboard. Things like bouncing words, moving words, growing/shrinking words ... it actually makes it a hell of a lot harder to read or try to sing to.

For special effects like made with AfterFX: It all depends on how true the person stays to the original format. You can make some really nice effects that match the original OP and then it detracts less, unless you are cluttering up every scene with a million subber credits.(Triad Ultra Maniac is a good example of nicely blended titling, or A-E Tenshi na Konamaiki) Then there are those who just make what "looks cool" and doesn't really match the original OP -- or needlessly clutters or puts the credits in the wrong place/scene. I call these the AJ-type sfx makers.

My IMHO tips for SFX:
- Match the original fonts/styling for the OP, don't make something just bc its "cool"
- Be as inconspicuous as possible -- people don't want/care for your credit to be plastered in the center of the screen while even the animation house's credits are only in the corners
- Try to hide the credits in with the Japanese for the best look

ChibiDusk · 2004-03-21, 16:16

Quote:

What if we have two characters, X and Y, who appear in the same scene and have the same hair colour? How are we to differentiate who is speaking?

Hair color was an example, go with whatever color you think suits the character. Eye colors, hair color, clothes...etc

JAppi · 2004-03-21, 17:14

Chibidusk:

You say that they should try and colour coordinate the subs with the people talking? Well, isn't that *exactly* what they did in Seichi's Yumeria? And you claimed that looked like crap. Stop contradicting yourself!

2004-03-20, 23:56	Link #1
JAppi Banned Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Gureibi wo aishite iru Age: 36	Your opinion on subtitle effects I've noticed that there has been alot of discussion about subtitles and the effects, so I figured we could start a big massive giant thread about it! Hurrah for threads!

2004-03-21, 00:33	Link #2
teh_suck AKA Torgen from We Suck Fansubber Join Date: Nov 2003	Regarding Karaoke: If you want to sing, you shouldn't need the bouncing ball by episode two or three, and if you don't want to sing you probably don't even want the romaji, let alone to have it changing colour. If you're doing it at all, at least be plain about it. You're not Shaft, or Mad House, or even Maki Pro. People watch anime because they like anime, not because they like your filters. Regarding other effects: As they say in art, less is more. If someone screams in anguish, making the font 10% bigger is a small enough change that the effect will be primarily subconscious. Conversely, multiple layers of overlapping, alpha-blended scaling text is just ridiculous. And as a side note, I highly doubt that many groups who use, say, After Effects or Vegas Video actually paid for them, which upsets me on another level entirely.

2004-03-21, 00:38	Link #3
SpikeS095 Fighting Stupidity Join Date: Apr 2003	A related topic: Op/Ed Styles and Effects

2004-03-21, 02:31	Link #6
complich8 Fansubber Emeritus Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Rockville, MD Age: 43	a lot of really neat effects are done with free software (textsub). There's a small subset of things you can do in ae that you can't do in textsub, and most typesetters I know tend to avoid ae because they don't want to be stuck being both typesetter and encoder (laziness wins! ). I know one typesetter/encoder who does use ae in my group, and I'm pretty sure his copy is legit, albeit student discounted.

2004-03-21, 03:07	Link #7
Zarxrax Anime-Fansubs Join Date: Nov 2003	I think "effects" don't really have a place in fansubs. I like karaoke, but only if it's kept simple. Just a basic light up or fade in please. Being a typesetter myself, I make it my priority to make the visuals integrate as seamlessly into the animation as I possibly can. This is the way it should be done, IMO...

2004-03-21, 06:05	Link #8
Tabiree FUNimation's Gen Fukunaga Join Date: Nov 2003	I just like text for the bottom of the screen, to tell me whats being said or whats being written. Beyond that, it's pretty irrelevant

2004-03-21, 11:32	Link #9
JAppi Banned Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Gureibi wo aishite iru Age: 36	The only "effect" that bothers me is when they do that damned "Presented by (group name)" underneath the title. The group is not presenting anything. They had nothing to do with the show, they simply aubbed it. I think it would be more appropriate to just write "Subtilted by (group name)"

2004-03-21, 12:24	Link #10
ChibiDusk Back From The Dead? Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Canada Age: 34	In the Opening and Ending, for credits use small fonts, try and match up the fonts/colors to look like the actually belong there, and match with the original japanese credits. For Karaoke, Put the english at the bottom of the screen. Put the japnese at the top. If characters are included as well, make them under the japanese or scrool along the side of the screen. Again, fonts and colors match with the mood of the anime. For actual subtitles, make the font white and color cordinate the speaking. So say we have three people. a: red hair b: blue hair c: green hair when a speaks it would be white with a red border, and when b speaks it should be white with a blue border, etc. This is the best way to subtitle stuff.

2004-03-21, 12:54	Link #12
ChibiDusk Back From The Dead? Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Canada Age: 34	Hm, what's wrong with The Triad's Gunslinger girl? They put effort into it, and it looks nice. Looks amazing IMO.

2004-03-21, 14:29	Link #16
CompShrink getting in comps' heads Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: #ToTan @ irc.chatsociety.net	This isn't an effect per se, but I hate when the subtitles overlap the original text in a series, such as kareoke that covers the "sing along" japanese text originally at the bottom. One reason I like to watch anime is to work on my Japanese language skills, and that just kills the reading part. Not to mention it looks just plain lazy, like they didn't feel like finding the appropriate font/size/breaking point to make it not overlap. I also think that Japanese should be with Japanese, when there is already Japanese kareoke at the bottom, don't put the translation under it and have the romaji just hanging out at the top of the screen. That's a minor personal preference, I know, but it just seems a logical thing.

2004-03-21, 14:58	Link #17
LBW I like obscure crap Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: .be Age: 38	I actually like those logo's and effect and the such. Some people call it stroking one's ego, but when I see things like that I usually start wishing I could do that too. XD Instead of keeping up the continious bashing, give the people a little praise for their perdy logo's and stuff. x)

2004-03-21, 15:39	Link #18
JediNight キズランダム Join Date: Apr 2003	I think that a lot of karaoke has gone overboard. Things like bouncing words, moving words, growing/shrinking words ... it actually makes it a hell of a lot harder to read or try to sing to. For special effects like made with AfterFX: It all depends on how true the person stays to the original format. You can make some really nice effects that match the original OP and then it detracts less, unless you are cluttering up every scene with a million subber credits.(Triad Ultra Maniac is a good example of nicely blended titling, or A-E Tenshi na Konamaiki) Then there are those who just make what "looks cool" and doesn't really match the original OP -- or needlessly clutters or puts the credits in the wrong place/scene. I call these the AJ-type sfx makers. My IMHO tips for SFX: - Match the original fonts/styling for the OP, don't make something just bc its "cool" - Be as inconspicuous as possible -- people don't want/care for your credit to be plastered in the center of the screen while even the animation house's credits are only in the corners - Try to hide the credits in with the Japanese for the best look

2004-03-21, 17:14	Link #20
JAppi Banned Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Gureibi wo aishite iru Age: 36	Chibidusk: You say that they should try and colour coordinate the subs with the people talking? Well, isn't that exactly what they did in Seichi's Yumeria? And you claimed that looked like crap. Stop contradicting yourself!