Morality in Code Geass? Do the ends justify the means?

[Juvyniled]

Originally Posted by Dann of Thursday

With that thought in mind, is it possible for her character to develop much more than it already has? How do we describe how she has developed anyway? Has she been rediscovering her humanity at all or is it pretty much the same as always?

In any case, I doubt we'll ever know the full scope of what she has endured. With enough of her back story, they will probably allow us to form our own ideas of the full scope.

It's more of a story unfolding than a rose bud blooming. Then again, it would be quite of a development to see what she does once she "rediscovers her own humanity." The beauty of her character is that she is shrouded in so much mystery that it's somewhat obscure whether she is the victim or the victimizer. We've seen flashbacks of her memory and it reveals somewhat of a despondency/melancholy, but we don't know exactly if there is something more sinister to her character (whether or not she is even aware of it).

From what I've seen, C.C.'s character development is best observed from the relationship she has formed with Lelouch. We've seen her isolated and confined to her own existence up until the point that she has bonded with Lelouch, who has essentially releashed her humanity from it's prison (I don't like being so abstract and metaphorical, but it certainly helps to illustrate a point).

Your last question has me thinking: What is she really trying to achieve? (Let's assume that there is no evil plot twist)
Then I would conclude that either
(1) "rediscover humanity" translates to finding true love (I just feel like everything theme falls under a specific category of cliches) or
(2) she is trying to "die" or become mortal, in which case (as others have stated) immortality is in fact a bane and not a boon.
In any case, she hasn't been stagnant in this goal whatsoever. It is C.C.'s disposition that is really unchanging.

[Dann of Thursday]

Originally Posted by Juvyniled

It's more of a story unfolding than a rose bud blooming. Then again, it would be quite of a development to see what she does once she "rediscovers her own humanity." The beauty of her character is that she is shrouded in so much mystery that it's somewhat obscure whether she is the victim or the victimizer. We've seen flashbacks of her memory and it reveals somewhat of a despondency/melancholy, but we don't know exactly if there is something more sinister to her character (whether or not she is even aware of it).

From what I've seen, C.C.'s character development is best observed from the relationship she has formed with Lelouch. We've seen her isolated and confined to her own existence up until the point that she has bonded with Lelouch, who has essentially releashed her humanity from it's prison (I don't like being so abstract and metaphorical, but it certainly helps to illustrate a point).

Your last question has me thinking: What is she really trying to achieve? (Let's assume that there is no evil plot twist)
Then I would conclude that either
(1) "rediscover humanity" translates to finding true love (I just feel like everything theme falls under a specific category of cliches) or
(2) she is trying to "die" or become mortal, in which case (as others have stated) immortality is in fact a bane and not a boon.
In any case, she hasn't been stagnant in this goal whatsoever. It is C.C.'s disposition that is really unchanging.

Well, she seems to be trying to resist her humanity coming back since she sees it as a possible hinderance to things for both her and Lelouch (though mainly her I would think). It's always possible that she was simply not a good person at the very beginning of her life, but forgot about it I suppose.

That's a good way of putting it I suppose.

That is the biggest question of them all. I sometimes wonder if even she doesn't know entirely. And evil plot twist is possible, though I have to admit to being surprised.

1) Possible of course, though given Mao I somehow doubt that this is the case with her. There were indications that one who shuns the world cannot fufill her wish and I cannot think love would have anything to do with that. Love is a theme in this show of course, though whether that will apply with her remains to be seen.

2) Dying seems most likely if this were the case, since I can't think of a reason she would want to be mortal. Still, there is still the condition I listed above and I can't think how that would relate to her dying.

It seems quite possible that there is some entirely different thing she is pursuing.

[Juvyniled]

Originally Posted by Dann of Thursday

It seems quite possible that there is some entirely different thing she is pursuing.

That is something I would most definitely agree with. Even if it were love and/or death, that simply can't be the end of it. Although I do have my own ideas and thoughts on the matter, I'd rather let time dictate more of the show before I make an assumption (given how they threw in the plot twist of Euphemia become psychotic spontaneously... anything could happen).

[Dann of Thursday]

Love or death may be some sort of extra thing that comes with whatever her goal is. There hasn't been much to hint to what it may be though. Her talk at the beginning of 15 made me think that it could involve making Lelouch a king of some sort, but that is really just a random guess.

[KrimzonStriker]

Biased? Immortality and mortality are all about perspective from my point of view, you can just as easily say morality is a gift that releases them from their pain and suffering while immortality is one where you are doomed to repeat pain for all existence. If anything I'm trying to be as un bias as possible by asserting against any type of implemented standard upon the whole issue when once again I argue it is all really about how one views and deals with it. If one were to take a side and say the Lelouch and Suzaku's suffering as far above that of what C.C has endured because of their mortality I would in turn call them the bias one

[Juvyniled]

Originally Posted by KrimzonStriker

Biased? Immortality and mortality are all about perspective from my point of view, you can just as easily say morality is a gift that releases them from their pain and suffering while immortality is one where you are doomed to repeat pain for all existence. If anything I'm trying to be as un bias as possible by asserting against any type of implemented standard upon the whole issue when once again I argue it is all really about how one views and deals with it. If one were to take a side and say the Lelouch and Suzaku's suffering as far above that of what C.C has endured because of their mortality I would in turn call them the bias one

I wasn't referring to bias in terms of your own personal views about immortality and mortality but rather your spite towards characters such as Suzaku and Euphemia when compared to C.C. (which in turn, brings in mortality vs. immortality). I cannot state that you are bias with respect to either immortality and mortality because the matter itself is highly dependent on one's beliefs/understandings of the concept. However... you should really read your prior arguments (as I had done), you really skew that negativity towards certain characters. It's almost as if the character is so detestable (I will not deny that Suzaku/Euphemia's temperament really takes their characters down a notch), that any argument pertaining to the character becomes irrelevant. However, simply because you do not favor them, does not make a relative circumstance concerning either character invalid.

[KrimzonStriker]

If I recall Var was the one who brought the matter up and gave support to both Suzaku and Euphemia, I merely provided a counter to that, had I not been drawn into the matter I would not have been been prone to offer my own assessment of their intentions or their character. In fact I believe I offered support to Euphie in that she at least wholly believed and was committed to the SAR, even if I questioned the idea's overall viability, which was subject to my bias I will admit, but not without justifiable reason. My assessment of Suzaku is also no more baseless then whatever conjectures you may have upon him either, for they are exactly that, conjectures that are not verifiable according to what has been shown, that his intentions were in fact merely a selfish facade to cover up his own personal desire to be punished. I believe that is a basis to question whether or not he ever believed in what he spouted to others, even during the time of the SAR's formation. If I'm bias in that regard, then so be it, but it isn't as if there were no counter points to my assessment as provided by Var. Instead of simply focusing solely on my arguments you should instead take in the context of the whole discussion, which I myself I'm most concerned with.

[Juvyniled]

Basically, I inferred that the discussion focused on whether immortality was a curse or a blessing (and if needed, I am more than willing to cite both your and Var's respective claims to assert my own claim). And from there, the discussion transitioned into other matters, what with the Greek gods, then comparing the relative suffering of each characters whether mortal or immortal, etc. With the SAR however, you were really subjective in passing your own judgment on the matter. For instance, you personally believed that Britannia would overrule the proposal of the SAR by assuming that Britannian supremacy was prevalent over all else. While supremacist feeling is indeed evident, we cannot deny the success of the plan or even its failure for that matter. Why? Because the story went through door number 2 and not door number 1; we don't know what would have happened otherwise had Lelouch not accidently triggered Geass. There is only one thing that we can confirm about the proposal - it failed because it did not operate accordingly. Apart from that, discussing its success/failure is an entirely separate discussion. As for these conjectures that you mention, I do not conjecture on Suzaku's character and/or his intentions because it is irrelevant to the discussion altogether. You hold the belief that "his intentions were in fact merely a selfish facade to cover up his own personal desire to be punished" and I will not refute it, not within the realm of this debate for that matter. But even then, if we place that view in the context of let's say, individual suffering, then it really doesn't relative suffering worse or better for that character. If the individual suffers as a direct result of their own actions (ie, the character is injured because he takes a gun and shoots himself), then relative to other suffering which is not a direct consequence, then I would argue that their suffering is relatively "light" (for lack of a better word) compared to the other individual. However, none of the main characters has directly called upon their own suffering.

[KrimzonStriker]

I believed our assessment on individual suffering was in fact related to the merits and downsides of mortality and immortality by offering examples and comparisons of individuals who exemplify this, and the basis of much of that revolved on the individuals perspective rather then circumstances that came upon them. Even that is subject toward review however, as I argued before though, perspective is a key element in regards to how one should interpret the current state of being for a character, and that is also subjective to change overtime. In any event, this discussion is once again becoming round about, and while I thank you for your input I must end any more responses on my part here.

[scifijimmy]

The issue of whether Euphemia and Suzuku could have changed the moral foundation of Brittania is shaky to me. Had Lelouch not Geassed Euphie, there is still the part that could Special Adminstrative Zones be established in other Areas. As things are with the Emperor's morality I find this a maybe to begin with. Add in the possiblity of eliminating the use of "Numbers" altogether with parliamentary representation of the people this quickly becomes NO. While Lelouch's actions are not completely righteous, there is a level of necessity in killing Clovis and bringing choas to Japan. Sometimes to remake order in your own image you must create chaos first.

[Onizuka-GTO]

Originally Posted by scifijimmy

The issue of whether Euphemia and Suzuku could have changed the moral foundation of Brittania is shaky to me. Had Lelouch not Geassed Euphie, there is still the part that could Special Adminstrative Zones be established in other Areas. As things are with the Emperor's morality I find this a maybe to begin with. Add in the possiblity of eliminating the use of "Numbers" altogether with parliamentary representation of the people this quickly becomes NO. While Lelouch's actions are not completely righteous, there is a level of necessity in killing Clovis and bringing choas to Japan. Sometimes to remake order in your own image you must create chaos first.

utter understand.
to make omuricesu
gotta scramble the eggs first if you want to put the rice in it.

Geassing Euphie was a mistake in his plans, and i think there is close to zero chance of Britannica & Japanese agreeing to a S.A.R again.

its far more easier to use force.

I think this in turns will actually encourage people to believe in a "resurrected" Zero.

which in CG universe seems to be pleasantly free of any signs of a state religion, is pardon the pun, almost biblical.

[Marioshinobi]

Obviously Schneizel was only supporting the idea due to the fact it would have broken apart the Black Knights. Though he does seem like a character to not care of such things and persue more large goals(getting the throne), destroying a small rebellion and dangerous power such as Zero who threatens the whole foundation of Brittania had to be eliminated first.

Would Euphemia's Dream be Achieved? Of Course Not. It's Rather Childish to believe so, Lelouch knew it from the beginning.

Her Father and Country wouldn't have accepted it. I'm sure he only did it himself to get rid of Zero, then scratch the project due to the fact of Brittania losing it's people and 'Japanese' regaining their pride and humanity. Brittania is not the type of Country and nor the type of King to allow it in the long run, it'd be calling for other nations to do the same and then soon enough it wouldn't be enough for them either. They'd want their rights back or more than their name.

The only reason Lelouch assumed he could Join together WITH Euphie was due to his Geass, he could have protected the area and stop it from being destroyed once his father had got enough of it. Instead of having to sacrifice his military, he could gain a whole nation's worth on his side without liberating them. Euphie already achieved it with the Help of Brittania, a COOP Leadership of both of them would have made Lelouch's plan progress much faster than a military liberation. If not then he could Geass any knight and even Darlton to get the hell out.

[mangastuff]

I guess in anime ppl do not have to do the stakeholder analysis before making policies, otherwise Euphie would see it clearly that her plan was politically unfeasible. The fact that she could carried it out is not because it supported her aims, but because it had some tactics effects needed to prevent the OoBK's development.

But I dun care about those morality anymore. I hope they could make some realistic anime where people win and be defeated not because of the morality :_:

[Dann of Thursday]

I'm curious as to what sort of person Lelouch is going to be and the same for Suzaku. It could possibly reflect the theme very well in the end I think though neither may change too much.

[ashlay]

Originally Posted by mangastuff

But I dun care about those morality anymore. I hope they could make some realistic anime where people win and be defeated not because of the morality :_:

you're watching one of many right now.

Originally Posted by Dann of Thursday

I'm curious as to what sort of person Lelouch is going to be and the same for Suzaku. It could possibly reflect the theme very well in the end I think though neither may change too much.

you mean what kind of people they're going to be this season?

[Dann of Thursday]

Originally Posted by ashlay

you mean what kind of people they're going to be this season?

Sort of, but I also meant the type of person he'll be at the end though that is anyone's guess.

[ashlay]

Originally Posted by Dann of Thursday

Sort of, but I also meant the type of person he'll be at the end though that is anyone's guess.

oh, Suzaku will be dead or broken. Either way, he's probably better off, though in a way I no longer want him dead if simply because Suzaku x Euphie ghost ending seems a bit too cliche, better to have him living for the sake of her memory. (well, and the "real" Suzaku doesn't infuriate me)

And Lelouch will just keep being Lelouch, no matter where he goes or what he does.

[Dann of Thursday]

Well, Suzaku always could get better like Michael did. Though considering what happened to Michael....

What does that mean for Lelouch then?

[scifijimmy]

To me, Suzuku accepted too much of what V.V. said at face value. Yes, he was(is?) visibly upset, but he knew C.C. went through some sort of pain at the S.A.R. opening, and wanted to see Zero. I don't think Suzuku ever considered that Zero's power of Geass was growing, and might be temporarily out of control.

[Dann of Thursday]

Suzaku knew next to nothing about Geass and it wouldn't have mattered to him either way. The fact was that Lelouch did it. I don't think Suzaku would have cared if Lelouch was sorry about it or not.