Character Discussion - Suzaku

[SuperKnuckles]

Originally Posted by TheRainbowConnection

Thank you.

Simply judging him on his actions is unfair to his character. It's important to understand the psychological and rational bases behind why he does what he does.

I think that in order to understand Suzaku, we must first accept the fact that he is highly damaged goods. The trauma that he experienced at killing his father for the good of Japan and seeing his people brutally repressed nevertheless left a lasting scar on him. He feels that he has accomplished nothing and has, in fact, brought an even worse fate upon Japan, no matter how noble his intentions. The thing is, people cope with trauma in different ways--some healthy, some unhealthy.

It's not entirely known for a fact what would've happened to Japan if it resisted further. Total extermination was seen as an option a few times. Suzaku could have helped prevent that. His emotional scars notwithstanding.

Those of us who are more optimistic might see Suzaku's attitude for most of season 1 to be his rationally working through his problems to try to achieve a better future for Japan through internal change. I personally think that that is far too superficial an assessment and is clearly refuted by the times that he flips his shit in season 1.

It's not about being rational or not. But rather that he still has goals on top of his emotional flip flops. Really, that's about it with Suzaku. He still cares for the Japanese, he still tries to work for the 'winning team' in Britannia and yet he still carries a lot of self conflicting emotions with him. It's not so simple as to say it's either rationally thought or not. He is somehow able to do it even going by his emotions, head on. You guys are right in that it can lead to a lot of smaller problems and him missing the bigger picture sometimes. But what do you know, it has somehow worked due to his stubbornness.

I personally accept the notion that Suzaku built for himself a somewhat fake persona and a whole new model of rationalization as a self-defense mechanism. The thing is, people who say that "if you look at it from Suzaku's point of view, his actions make sense" are absolutely right. If we start from the assumption that he is deeply broken from his own attempt to right things via the wrong method, his anal-retentive rule-following makes sense. However, we as third parties have the benefit of being far more emotionally removed from the situation and, as a result, we judge him according to our own value systems and mental frameworks. And this is a privilege allowed to us as viewers, but I feel that many people are too quick to dismiss Suzaku as a "moralfag", a hypocrite, evil, thankless, etc. without looking at his motivations. I think that his mission to effect internal change was not one done out of selfishness or treachery. At the most basic level, Suzaku is a decent human being whose world view is strongly tinted by his own traumatic experiences and who has decided upon a course of action that he perceives as "good" from within his own framework. In this way, I disagree with his almost every action, but I still find him to be as sympathetic a character as Lelouch.

I also have to wonder if people forgot all the good Suzaku has done, such as the previously mention of possibly saving the Japanese from all out annihilation instead of subjugation (YES, both are pretty horrible, but everything beats out a holocaust). Not to mention all the stuff he actually did for Lelouch, Kallen, Nunnally, etc.

But you're right. He does not have the God's eye view and he doesn't know that Zero killed Euphie out of a fatal mistake or knew that Geass powers would make a rebellion possible. Had he known that there was an avenue he could focus his energies on like that, he would've. That one fateful moment in season 1 where Lelouch asked Suzaku if he would join the rebellion said it all. Suzaku clearly said it was too late to change sides now. So the option WAS there. Suzaku didn't went up and say 'to hell with Japan' to oppress it. To him, that was the only way to do it.

In short, what many see as "delusion" is, to me, a believably rational outcome for a boy who had suffered extraordinarily traumatic and defining events in his life. When you build your rationalization upon a highly skewed and broken world view, it is not unsurprising to wind up with an (objectively) irrational rationality.

It's rather simple IMO. While rebellion is an easy option for swaggering anime heroes and anti-heroes, imagine if your country is overtaken by a vastly superior force. Rebellion in that case, may be just futile, suicidal and may actually cause further backlash against your people. While there are avenues to join up with the enemy side and work within to make things better for your kind.

Actually, that kind of story was FREQUENT in the Japanese occupation of Korea for awhile. Some Koreans were quick to violently rebel to few actual results while others learned Japanese, got Japanese names even, and worked with the conquerers to better their own kind, their own families, etc. It's a sad situation and even a bit 'traitorous' (I hate to use that word for those who suffered being conquered and had to make a living like that), but that is, IMO, the most viable alternative in that tough situation. Irrational this, irrational that. No. I think it can be quite rational. Suzaku being totally driven hither and dither by emotions do give him a sense of fallibility though. But I think that's just another cross for him to bear.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by SuperKnuckles

It's not entirely known for a fact what would've happened to Japan if it resisted further. Total extermination was seen as an option a few times. Suzaku could have helped prevent that. His emotional scars notwithstanding.



It's not about being rational or not. But rather that he still has goals on top of his emotional flip flops. Really, that's about it with Suzaku. He still cares for the Japanese, he still tries to work for the 'winning team' in Britannia and yet he still carries a lot of self conflicting emotions with him. It's not so simple as to say it's either rationally thought or not. He is somehow able to do it even going by his emotions, head on. You guys are right in that it can lead to a lot of smaller problems and him missing the bigger picture sometimes. But what do you know, it has somehow worked due to his stubbornness.



I also have to wonder if people forgot all the good Suzaku has done, such as the previously mention of possibly saving the Japanese from all out annihilation instead of subjugation (YES, both are pretty horrible, but everything beats out a holocaust). Not to mention all the stuff he actually did for Lelouch, Kallen, Nunnally, etc.

But you're right. He does not have the God's eye view and he doesn't know that Zero killed Euphie out of a fatal mistake or knew that Geass powers would make a rebellion possible. Had he known that there was an avenue he could focus his energies on like that, he would've. That one fateful moment in season 1 where Lelouch asked Suzaku if he would join the rebellion said it all. Suzaku clearly said it was too late to change sides now. So the option WAS there. Suzaku didn't went up and say 'to hell with Japan' to oppress it. To him, that was the only way to do it.



It's rather simple IMO. While rebellion is an easy option for swaggering anime heroes and anti-heroes, imagine if your country is overtaken by a vastly superior force. Rebellion in that case, may be just futile, suicidal and may actually cause further backlash against your people. While there are avenues to join up with the enemy side and work within to make things better for your kind.

Actually, that kind of story was FREQUENT in the Japanese occupation of Korea for awhile. Some Koreans were quick to violently rebel to few actual results while others learned Japanese, got Japanese names even, and worked with the conquerers to better their own kind, their own families, etc. It's a sad situation and even a bit 'traitorous' (I hate to use that word for those who suffered being conquered and had to make a living like that), but that is, IMO, the most viable alternative in that tough situation. Irrational this, irrational that. No. I think it can be quite rational. Suzaku being totally driven hither and dither by emotions do give him a sense of fallibility though. But I think that's just another cross for him to bear.

At the end of Season 1 of Code Geass, I didn't get the sense that Britannia had the 'vastly superior force' - at least not as far as having control over Japan is concerned.

Look how quickly that one former Japanese Cabinet member managed to liberate a piece of Japan territory, and quite ably defend it until Zero pulled off one of his dumbest moves (in my opinion).

Also, in battle after battle after battle in Season 1... Suzaku is nothing less than the difference maker. He's the difference between catastrophic defeat in battle for Britannia or mild defeat; or the difference between mild defeat for Britannia or a draw; or the difference between a draw or a win for Britannia.

This is part of what I meant by how Suzaku's focus is too narrow - I don't think he fully took the time to reflect on the impact that him and his Lancelot were having and how with out that impact, Britannia would really be on the ropes, and Japan could very well be liberated and stay liberated.

If not for Suzaku, how do you think the battle of episodes 24/25 would have went down?

Personally, I think that the Order of the Black Knights would have won, and would have won handidly.

I don't think that Season 1 of Code Geass allows for the following interpretation of Suzaku...

"Man, this Order of the Black Knights are idiots. They don't stand a chance against Britannia. Britannia will overwhelm them, so I might as well get on the winning side, and do what I can from that side to ensure that my fellow Japanese aren't treated too harshly" - Suzaku's thoughts

Finally, I'm really getting sick and tired of some Suzaku defenders arguing that harsh, unending subjugation is preferable to death... period, no questions, no right to disagree, end of story.

Look, not everybody agrees, and we have a right to disagree. Is that really so hard to accept?

[Sol Falling]

Well said SuperKnuckles. While I basically agree with TheRainbowConnection's assessment of the basis of Suzaku's rationality, Code Geass is a fictional work which hasn't ended yet. There isn't any basis for saying that what Suzaku is trying to do is doomed to fail, so claims that Suzaku's methods are 'objectively irrational' are a bit premature, in my opinion.

edit:

Triple R...If you want us to imagine what would have happened without Suzaku, why don't you consider what would have happened without Lelouch/Zero? Without his Geass and tactical ability, the Japanese rebels would have been crushed the moment anybody with any military competence (for example, Cornelia) came by to clean things up. And as TheRainbowConnection explained, Suzaku, forced by his emotional trauma and the rationality he constructed out of it, had no choice but to act as he did. Similarly, Lelouch, forced by his own emotional trauma and upbringing, could only pursue the path he was walking. It's fairly pointless to consider 'what ifs' in terms of the story, but if you want to look at hypothetical situations, consider both sides of the picture.

Also, you might want to consider how Lelouch and Suzaku's actions are inextricably intertwined? Without Suzaku forcing a premature unconditional surrender on the part of the Japanese, Lelouch would not have the human resources and mindshare to conduct his rebellion. Similarly, without Zero's presence as a strong enemy for Britannia, it would have taken a lot longer for Suzaku to find the opportunities to truly demonstrate his abilities and climb the ranks.

It is part of the story that Suzaku's patricide saved many Japanese lives. If some of those people wanted to die fighting instead, they could still do it--that's what the rebellions were all about, after all. Suzaku's actions didn't remove any choice for the Japanese; the people who wanted to choose death over life could still do so regardless.

[Var]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Actually, I thought the mission objective was to locate and recover C.C. under the guise of surpressing some terrorists (who indeed were there). All Suzaku would have likely been told would have been 'go find the terrorists'. I don't think there was any indication of him being told that all of the civilians would be killed.

And Suzaku doesn't have 'backwards priorities', merely multiple ones. In that instance, it seemed like his first priority had been fulfilled (surpress the terrorists) so he allowed his other priorities (prevent civilian deaths) to influence his actions.

Knowing how the empire works, I wouldn't be all that surprised if his orders were to kill anyone they found that wasn't the capsule. Then, there's also how the empire does not respect civilians, so he should have been more than knowledgeable of where a mission to stop terrorists in a ghetto that supports terrorists would have ended up.

Surpressing the terrorists would mean stopping them, especially when the one leading them is right in front of you. Not saving some random woman. That's the trick, Suzaku, more or less, saved a pawn in the chess game instead of checkmating the king.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Thanks for the brief elaboration, but I actually really would appreciate if you spelled them out because I don't remember at all noticing any irrational behaviour on the part of Suzaku even after multiple viewings, one very recent. There's probably a difference in perspective here that I honestly will not be able to grasp unless you explain to me your point of view, and back it up with specific instances of support.

Suzaku never openly defies orders and will do in the end what is asked of him, but he attempts to achieve what he can (fulfill his other motivations) within what little leeway is given him. On the other hand, complete obediance isn't what's required for him to get noticed and gain influence--all he has to do is demonstrate extraordinary capability. Suzaku tends to not notice this and err on the safe side, but we as the audience can at least acknowledge that this buffer is there to keep Suzaku's chances open even when he screws up against his will.

As for Suzaku talking with Lelouch and then being shot for him, there wasn't any reason for Suzaku to assume that the Britannian army would kill a student who had just gotten caught up in things (indeed, probably the only reason why Suzaku's superior ordered Lelouch killed was because he had found out the truth behind the 'poison gas'). Furthermore, Suzaku could not have predicted that he would be shot for disobediance, and it's not likely Suzaku would have done what he did for just anyone, in any case.

Using my example in Episode 1; Suzaku goes against the orders given to him by the 'leader' to kill Lelouch or get out of the way. He does neither, and is shot for it. How is that helping him achieve anything?

Complete obedience is needed so that he doesn't get killed when he's nothing more than a pawn. When he becomes a knight or under Euphie's care, he's far more free to do whatever he wants. But earlier on, he should not be disobeying orders being nothing more than 'that eleven'. He turned heads with his skills when he followed orders, not when he disobeyed them.

Why would there be no reason for him to assume that a student would be killed? The student is conveniently within a terrorist truck, what does he think will happen? We know Britannia doesn't care for hostages, nor do they have any reserves about killing their own. I feel he'd have to have been lying to himself to believe such a thing. What reason does he have to think he'd not get shot for disobeying orders? He is just an eleven then, he's expendable and no one wants a pawn that questions its master. It doesn't matter who he does it with, the fact of the matter is, Suzaku did it.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Iunno, man, you've just admitted to being a hypocrite right there and I'm not gonna get up on your case for it. Besides, the only reason you managed to point out any contradiction was because I was conceding a claim you made that I didn't think I'd be able to convince you against, even if I didn't believe in it myself. That claim, if you're curious, was 'It does not take a large sum of intelligence and/or awareness to discern stupidity and hypocrisy from smart actions.' I was attempting to show you the contradiction in telling me I didn't have the intelligence to judge the posters when you took it for granted that they had the intelligence to judge Suzaku.

My comment about intelligence was no directly pointed at you, it was an opener to the following lines. If anything, this entire quote and its subsequent are simply neither of us understanding the other's points. And yes, I know I admited to it, I was simply returning the favor, as I said, everyone's a hypocrite.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Heh. Well, you can obviously understand that I didn't find that person's response to be particularly well thought out (especially considering I had specifically addressed many of his points in the monster of the post I made just before it), and that my response was intentionally offensive (though I'm not quite sure what you mean by poorly worded, as I think my post conveyed my feelings regarding the subject rather well), right?

Yes, I understood it was intentional. That is why I found it annoying. There's no need for it, the person clearly does not agree and will not present compounding information for you to gorge on. So what's the point of raising tempers?

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Alright, but I'd appreciate it if you actually argued some of the specific points I made so I could understand the basis of your disagreement. We could first start by establishing what we think compose 'Suzaku's goals'. (Mind you, if you take up this offer, then I'd appreciate if we could put the above discussion about the more intricate details of Suzaku's convolusion on hold.)

Alright then, we'll suspend the above without further notice. I'll get back to your old posts when I have free time and the initiative to delve into the actual Suzaku discussion, but to be perfectly frank my spine crawls at the thought.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Hahaha, well, thanks I guess, but the thing is I've found that being smart in life isn't really all it's cracked up to be, so I'd appreciate being given the freedom to choose to be an idiot when I want to be.

But being an idiot and acting like one are different. People have less respect for those who purposefully act like idiots as opposed to those who are simply that way.

[evil|plushie]

Originally Posted by SuperKnuckles

Why is that even needed to be brought up again? Suzaku in the grand scheme of things is just a yet another player in the war. I never even mentioned that all other characters are 'wrong' or 'hypocritical'. That's just the buzz words *some* people love throwing around. I never even put that into question unless you are assuming that. I'm just saying the situation is complex and Suzaku, while in a deep mudhole as far as his place in Britannian/Japanese society goes, is not a matter of being in the wrong or hypocritical (and like I said, Lelouch's situation is complex just the same). It just APPEARS hypocritical in one sense in a conventional sense. Suzaku chose not to choose that conventional way and on paper, it seems like he's betraying his people. And yet, he constantly advocated for a stop to spreading of violence and the freedom of his people through Euphie. It's incredibly roundabout but the intent is there. Again, 'hypocritical' is just a word that is tossed around a lot. I just don't buy it.

Because you were somehow upset over the fact that people thought that Suzaku was 'wrong' or 'hypocritical'? And Suzaku was a hypocrite. The dictionary defn of a hypocrite is

hypocrite
Function:
noun
Etymology:
Middle English ypocrite, from Anglo-French, from Late Latin hypocrita, from Greek hypokritēs actor, hypocrite, from hypokrinesthai
Date:
13th century

1 : a person who puts on a false appearance of virtue or religion 2 : a person who acts in contradiction to his or her stated beliefs or feelings
— hypocrite adjective

Suzaku talked about doing things the right way, the just way and about not endangering innocent people. But then again, he's a soldier for a very very bloody empire. This certainly seems to act in contradiction to his stated beliefs or feelings. Secondly, a person who puts on a false appearance of virtue or religion. See above, and in the end you find out Suzaku really just had an urge for atonement and death. I'm not blaming Suzaku for being hypocritical for 'betraying' his people. That's another matter whatsoever. However, he is hypocritical for the reasons I've stated above.

You can say he appears hypocritical in a conventional sense, but in reality, by going about this roundabout way, he's not etc etc etc. But around here, we call that rationalization.

Whether Suzaku has changed enough in R2 to no longer be hypocritical (or as much of one) is hard to say because he hasn't had much showtime in R2 yet. But again, like I said, R2 Suzaku seems like end of S1 Suzaku to me.

How many times do you need to hear Suzaku say "I want to change Britannia from the inside"? And when did he ever advocate Britannia's brutal treatment of Japanese? Because he clearly opposes that? It's not about being 'inconsistent'. It's about being roundabout by joining what he deems to be the only chance of changing society in a straightforward manner (ironic I know, since Britannia is too strong of a power in Japan and Suzaku feels the need to play by the flow).

How many times do you need to hear Suzaku preach about how he doesn't want innocent lifes to be lost? You act as if he needs to be a vocal advocate of Britannias brutal treatment to be hypocritical. But that's not true. By standing by and doing nothing, he's already being a hypocrite because if he truly believed in his own ideals, he would try and stop them. By joining an army which performs those very same brutalities in order to try and stop innocent lifes being lost, he's already being a hypocrite because he's just reinforcing the very same system he's trying to stop. It may be the only choice he sees for himself (and I stress the MAY) but it doesn't stop it from being any more hypocritical. Shit is shit, and sometimes you have to go through the shit to do things you think are right but that doesn't mean you're not tainted by the smell or the come out pristine white. -_-

He didn't 'luck' his way into becoming such a powerful soldier as to get the chance to pilot the Lancelot, win the trust of many Britannian royalty, Euphemia's full support, and showing battle prudence to earn promotions. Also, he said he'll change Britannia from the inside. SURELY you can't change anything if you're a small pawn in the game. Suzaku accepting knighthood from season 1 to season 2 is proof that that is his modus operandi. He is doing what he set out to do. I really don't want to hear the words 'inconsistent' in that sense because that does not make any sense.

Uh..yes he did. He lucked out by having a pocket watch that convenient saved him by stopping a bullet and he also lucked out that Lloyd just happened to be there and needed a test pilot and let him drive the Lancelot. He also lucked out by meeting Euphemia who for some reason, decided it was a good idea to jump from a building -_- He lucked out into meeting V.V and being able to exchange Zero for a rank. This is what we call luck, things that just happen by coincidence. Unless you're telling me he planned to have his pocketwatch stop a bullet and then knew Lloyd was going to be there etc etc etc.

Nobody's saying Suzaku's not a godhax pilot but he is pretty lucky at times, which starts the whole chain of events.

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by Var

...

This argument isn't gonna go anywhere if we're both gonna admit (/commit?) to being hypocrites. It's in the past now so I think I'll just drop it.

Anyway, I'll await your treatise on the intricacies of Suzaku's character, then. No need to go too deep into my past posts, as I mostly put them there to show people that there was actually another perspective. In this case, some basic foundational premises have to be established first to facilitate mutual understanding. As I said, we can start with 'Suzaku's goals'.

[TheRainbowConnection]

Originally Posted by SuperKnuckles

It's not entirely known for a fact what would've happened to Japan if it resisted further. Total extermination was seen as an option a few times. Suzaku could have helped prevent that. His emotional scars notwithstanding.

Except that what matters is not what actually happened but what he perceived to have happened. Although there's a good argument to be made that his patricide made Japanese independence possible, he believes that he unfairly quashed the happiness of his country. If this was not the case, he would not have freaked out so much at the end of the Mao arc, and Lelouch would not have had to justify Suzaku's actions to him.

It's not about being rational or not. But rather that he still has goals on top of his emotional flip flops. Really, that's about it with Suzaku. He still cares for the Japanese, he still tries to work for the 'winning team' in Britannia and yet he still carries a lot of self conflicting emotions with him. It's not so simple as to say it's either rationally thought or not. He is somehow able to do it even going by his emotions, head on. You guys are right in that it can lead to a lot of smaller problems and him missing the bigger picture sometimes. But what do you know, it has somehow worked due to his stubbornness.

I'm not really disagreeing with you here. I think that in a way, because he is so emotionally torn and damaged, he imposes upon himself a rationality that many some perceive to be (from our standpoint) irrational. This gives him something stable and workable in his largely broken life that would give him some sense of purpose and direction. His emotions and desires (happiness for Japan) get channeled into his world view, and the resultant output is what many viewers disagree with. Also, what do you mean "it has somehow worked"?

I also have to wonder if people forgot all the good Suzaku has done, such as the previously mention of possibly saving the Japanese from all out annihilation instead of subjugation (YES, both are pretty horrible, but everything beats out a holocaust). Not to mention all the stuff he actually did for Lelouch, Kallen, Nunnally, etc.

I definitely don't forget. But I was giving an interpretation of Suzaku's character based on his own perspective, and he himself tends to discount the good that he did. Once again, he's damaged goods and still feeling really guilty about the whole thing.

But you're right. He does not have the God's eye view and he doesn't know that Zero killed Euphie out of a fatal mistake or knew that Geass powers would make a rebellion possible. Had he known that there was an avenue he could focus his energies on like that, he would've. That one fateful moment in season 1 where Lelouch asked Suzaku if he would join the rebellion said it all. Suzaku clearly said it was too late to change sides now. So the option WAS there. Suzaku didn't went up and say 'to hell with Japan' to oppress it. To him, that was the only way to do it.

That's the great thing about Suzaku--he's characteristically human. He feels, he hurts, and he knows how to hurt others. He is petty and selfish and self-sacrificing. He feels proud, defiant, and guilty. He regrets, he doesn't know everything, and he doesn't have all the answers, but dammit, he's trying to do the right thing as best he can. And sometimes, when you follow that out to its conclusion, shitty things happen.

Irrational this, irrational that. No. I think it can be quite rational. Suzaku being totally driven hither and dither by emotions do give him a sense of fallibility though. But I think that's just another cross for him to bear.

I don't think we're actually on different pages here, really. I'm arguing that Suzaku is acting rationally within his own mental framework, although it seems "irrational" to many viewers who are content to simply call him a "traitor".

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Well said SuperKnuckles. While I basically agree with TheRainbowConnection's assessment of the basis of Suzaku's rationality, Code Geass is a fictional work which hasn't ended yet. There isn't any basis for saying that what Suzaku is trying to do is doomed to fail, so claims that Suzaku's methods are 'objectively irrational' are a bit premature, in my opinion.

My analysis was only meant to apply to Suzaku in season 1 (and only up to episode 22, at that). It's clear that circumstances have given Suzaku huge potential to change. However, the height of a person's rage (23-25) is hardly a good point to judge his character, and we've seen so little of Suzaku as he is a year later that any judgment of his current character would be hugely speculative.

[HayashiTakara]

Did I mentioned I don't like Suzaku's hair cut? yeah, its stupid I know lol

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Well said SuperKnuckles. While I basically agree with TheRainbowConnection's assessment of the basis of Suzaku's rationality, Code Geass is a fictional work which hasn't ended yet. There isn't any basis for saying that what Suzaku is trying to do is doomed to fail, so claims that Suzaku's methods are 'objectively irrational' are a bit premature, in my opinion.

edit:

Triple R...If you want us to imagine what would have happened without Suzaku, why don't you consider what would have happened without Lelouch/Zero?

With out Lelouch/Zero, there is no Code Geass. Lelouch/Zero is the driving force of the Code Geass anime - not merely the main protagonist, but the principle plot-mover as well (i.e. in a great deal of fictional works, the principle plot-mover is the main antagonist ).

Without his Geass and tactical ability, the Japanese rebels would have been crushed the moment anybody with any military competence (for example, Cornelia) came by to clean things up.

Agreed. However, this doesn't change the fact that Japanese liberation is a very real possibility with the impact of Zero - a possibility that becomes far greater if Suzaku wasn't there. Suzaku himself seems to be oblivious to this.

And as TheRainbowConnection explained, Suzaku, forced by his emotional trauma and the rationality he constructed out of it, had no choice but to act as he did.

That's stretching things. Or... you're arguing that Suzaku is entirely ruled by emotions. If Suzaku is such a character, I don't see what makes him deserving of defence, or certainly of admiration.

Similarly, Lelouch, forced by his own emotional trauma and upbringing, could only pursue the path he was walking.

I don't agree with this deterministic thinking.

You present Suzaku and Lelouch as mere instruments of fate, pushed along entirely by circumstances and emotions. I'll grant you that those cirumstances, emotions, and life experiences predispose each character to be more likely to choose certain paths, but to say that there is no choice, or exercise of free will, in the process is to drastically undermine the worth of the character's, imo.

It's fairly pointless to consider 'what ifs' in terms of the story, etc...

Not from Suzaku's perspective, it shouldn't be.

If Suzaku is an admirable character, then wouldn't he reflect at least somewhat on his actions, and the impact thereof?

Or does he have a single-minded dedication to Britannia?

Suzaku's actions didn't remove any choice for the Japanese

Yes, it did. It removed the choice from many of them to avoid subjugation (and the lost of freedom, and national/personal dignity, identity and pride that came with that), entirely.

the people who wanted to choose death over life could still do so regardless.

Death over life, eh?

Suzaku defenders wrongly continue to try to make this seem like an easy choice - an obvious universal value of choosing life - any sort of life; no matter how wretched and terrible it may be - over death.

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Originally Posted by evil|plushie

In all honesty, has R2 Suzaku really changed that much from S1 Suzaku? He seems the same as his episode 24/25 self to me. But then again, he also hasn't appeared much in R2, only appearing to say a) he'll kill Zero b) flash back scene with him, again S1 c) where he accompanied the Emperor and pretty much just acted as a char. foil to let the reader know what the Akasha no tsurugi was. d) the broadcast scene of Zeros revival.

So, I fail to see any major difference between R1 and R2 Suzaku. Perhaps you'd like to enlighten me on it?

I don't need to. Why don't you go and read the other posts before me? I'm not going to go in and repeat what they said. Since your willing to read my posts and ignore the others.

I never said a major difference either. I and others said that he's changed.

It's what Lelouch stated, the day he met Suzaku he was a completely different person than what he knew. As the interviews in late S1 noted, Suzaku was now back to the person he used to be. Hmm perhaps we should be stating post episode 23 then.

But again, like I said, R2 Suzaku seems like end of S1 Suzaku to me.

You really should watch the DVD dramas and season 1 if you haven't. I've lost count of how many times Lelouch noted how Suzaku was different than what he used to remember. Even Cecile noted something was abnormal in Suzaku.

Do you remember the mission objective for Shinjuku? It was to exterminate the ghetto so as to cover up everything and to find C.C.. That is Suzaku's objective, yet he goes and saves someone who, by his mission objective, was going to be eventually killed. Ultimately letting a terrorist escape for someone who would have probably been killed later.

I was under the impression the "clean-up" order came AFTER the special ops team lost contact of C2 and Clovis did it to cover up the situation so it was now out of the bag.

And then when Suzaku sorties it's after the clean-up screws up.

[Var]

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

I was under the impression the "clean-up" order came AFTER the special ops team lost contact of C2 and Clovis did it to cover up the situation so it was now out of the bag.

And then when Suzaku sorties it's after the clean-up screws up.

The clean up order comes up before he sorties, IIRC, and isn't canceled until much later. When he's just in the underground chasing the capsule, he's simply given the order to find it and kill anyone in the way.

[mougrim]

Hypocrite, SS-man, bloody traitor... And his favorite "I want to change Britannia from the inside"...

"I want to change Britannia from the inside, I want to change Britannia from the inside" - repeated Suzaku in Lancelot over and over
His chanting was interrupted by commlink from Emperor: "Suzaku, I need you to go and shoot some rebels in Area 11"
Suzaku: "Yes, mein fuhre... I mean, Your Majesty!!"
"I want to change Britannia from the inside, I want to change Britannia from the inside" repeated Suzaku and sighed... "Hell, now I haven't time for this - I have quickly kill that rebels. But I can repeat this phrase AFTER that "

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

With out Lelouch/Zero, there is no Code Geass. Lelouch/Zero is the driving force of the Code Geass anime - not merely the main protagonist, but the principle plot-mover as well (i.e. in a great deal of fictional works, the principle plot-mover is the main antagonist ).

I dunno what your point here is really. So it's okay to do hypothetical speculation about side characters but not the main? Like, why?

Agreed. However, this doesn't change the fact that Japanese liberation is a very real possibility with the impact of Zero - a possibility that becomes far greater if Suzaku wasn't there. Suzaku himself seems to be oblivious to this.

Hmm...iunno, so what you're saying is that Suzaku himself should imagine 'hm, I wonder what things would be like if I didn't exist?' and base his actions off of that? The thing is, Suzaku is there, and as far as he's concerned, fighting on Britannia's side is the only thing he can do.

That's stretching things. Or... you're arguing that Suzaku is entirely ruled by emotions. If Suzaku is such a character, I don't see what makes him deserving of defence, or certainly of admiration.

No, Suzaku isn't ruled by emotions. Actually, by the end of episode 25, he is far less driven by emotions than Lelouch is. What I'm saying is, Suzaku has only one path of action which seems rational to him, and since Suzaku is a rational person, he must take that path.

I don't agree with this deterministic thinking.

You present Suzaku and Lelouch as mere instruments of fate, pushed along entirely by circumstances and emotions. I'll grant you that those cirumstances, emotions, and life experiences predispose each character to be more likely to choose certain paths, but to say that there is no choice, or exercise of free will, in the process is to drastically undermine the worth of the character's, imo.

I present Suzaku and Lelouch as rational creatures, who are bound to do what their priorities and worldviews dictate. I don't mean to get philosophical, but how is thinking any less deterministic or probability based than any other phenomenon? Now that I think about it, what does 'free will' even mean?

And actually, on another topic. You understand the feeling of "I've done this much already, given this much up already, in the pursuit of this path. If I abandon it, all those sacrifices will have meant nothing", right? Both Lelouch and Suzaku have reasons to and have shown evidence of thinking this way. Given that, it's unlikely that they could be induced to act otherwise even if they were threatened with death.

Yes, it did. It removed the choice from many of them to avoid subjugation (and the lost of freedom, and national/personal dignity, identity and pride that came with that), entirely.

Death over life, eh?

Suzaku defenders wrongly continue to try to make this seem like an easy choice - an obvious universal value of choosing life - any sort of life; no matter how wretched and terrible it may be - over death.

See, you seem to be missing something here. Japan lost. Utterly and completely. There was no hope at all for them of winning the war. The only question left was 'lose now, or lose later after thousands more have died'.

Again, Suzaku's patricide did not remove any choice from the Japanese. In fact, it gave them a choice. While Japan was still at war, any Japanese, whether they believed their nation's honour was worth fighting for or not, could be killed by the Britannians. When the war had stopped, though, then those who were unwilling to live under oppression could still continue fighting (and dying) in the form of rebellion, and the rest could try to move on with life. This isn't a matter of Suzaku supporters saying 'life is better than anything'. You can't actually stop anybody who really wants to die from dying. This is a matter of people who paid attention saying 'Japan had already lost, and it was only a matter of whether or not those who wanted to keep fighting were allowed to drag everybody else down with them'.

[SuperKnuckles]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

At the end of Season 1 of Code Geass, I didn't get the sense that Britannia had the 'vastly superior force' - at least not as far as having control over Japan is concerned.

Look how quickly that one former Japanese Cabinet member managed to liberate a piece of Japan territory, and quite ably defend it until Zero pulled off one of his dumbest moves (in my opinion).

Also, in battle after battle after battle in Season 1... Suzaku is nothing less than the difference maker. He's the difference between catastrophic defeat in battle for Britannia or mild defeat; or the difference between mild defeat for Britannia or a draw; or the difference between a draw or a win for Britannia.

This is part of what I meant by how Suzaku's focus is too narrow - I don't think he fully took the time to reflect on the impact that him and his Lancelot were having and how with out that impact, Britannia would really be on the ropes, and Japan could very well be liberated and stay liberated.

That's not all of the story though. Suzaku at that point was a branded traitor to most Japanese. Unless he wears a mask and goes all Char on us, he probably wouldn't have been able to convert. Also, he KILLED HIS DAD to get where he was. Suzaku, as blunt as the guy is, probably couldn't find a way to convert nor did he run away from his older choice. If it was Lelouch, he'd have done the smarter tactical thing no matter the cost. Just a different way of doing things. I'm not saying who is in the right here. Just that they made that resolution.

Also, Suzaku realizes that the Japanese forces of Britannia isn't the entire story. There was a MOUNTAIN of forces outside Japan. Also, the full extent of Japanese support wasn't really seen until the final episodes. I'd also assume that the vast amount of reinforcements probably was hedged against Black Knights anyway.

If not for Suzaku, how do you think the battle of episodes 24/25 would have went down?

Personally, I think that the Order of the Black Knights would have won, and would have won handidly.

Might have held the city IMO. But what about all the Knights of Round and other secretive forces? Also, the Emperor was rather smug even through all that. Surely he had a trump card or two or three. I agree Suzaku was a massive asset as far as the smaller battles went, but overall, I don't think even Suzaku could have won entire wars in that situation.

I don't think that Season 1 of Code Geass allows for the following interpretation of Suzaku...

"Man, this Order of the Black Knights are idiots. They don't stand a chance against Britannia. Britannia will overwhelm them, so I might as well get on the winning side, and do what I can from that side to ensure that my fellow Japanese aren't treated too harshly" - Suzaku's thoughts

I disagree. By that time, subjugation was in full effect, the rebellions were a massive failure and even Lelouch's acts were rather small fry until the build up to ep 20. Suzaku didn't make the choices through those events. He saw all that in the years up TO the Code Geass ep 1 timeline. The ENTIRE nation was fully subjugated. It was not even something that had ambiguity written on it. Only Zero was that ambiguity, much later.

Finally, I'm really getting sick and tired of some Suzaku defenders arguing that harsh, unending subjugation is preferable to death... period, no questions, no right to disagree, end of story.

I think you can disagree, but with death, there is absolutely no hope. If you're alive, you have Kallen, Lelouch, Suzaku, etc etc. Also, Euphemia, remember? They were on their way to getting certain freedoms and maybe even to some forms of autonomy, as Britannia was apparently satisfied with at least a demilitarized Japan, military commanded by Britannia. That went down the tubes fast when Zero messed things up in more ways than one back then.

Look, not everybody agrees, and we have a right to disagree. Is that really so hard to accept?

It's not that it's hard to accept other than that I think Suzaku bashers basically throw us under the bus. Even with your argument, I think there's still some sense of fallacious argument. You can't always equate what happened in all the years of subjugation to that of spontaneous and quick, violent rebellions in the show and what Suzaku's father tried to do. There's a lot to juxtapose there.

[Airi]

Originally Posted by mougrim

Hypocrite, SS-man, bloody traitor... And his favorite "I want to change Britannia from the inside"...

"I want to change Britannia from the inside, I want to change Britannia from the inside" - repeated Suzaku in Lancelot over and over
His chanting was interrupted by commlink from Emperor: "Suzaku, I need you to go and shoot some rebels in Area 11"
Suzaku: "Yes, mein fuhre... I mean, Your Majesty!!"
"I want to change Britannia from the inside, I want to change Britannia from the inside" repeated Suzaku and sighed... "Hell, now I haven't time for this - I have quickly kill that rebels. But I can repeat this phrase AFTER that "

After PAGES of tortuous debating and intelligent opinions (from both sides)
.................................................. .................................................. .....
I don’t have words

[SuperKnuckles]

Originally Posted by evil|plushie

Because you were somehow upset over the fact that people thought that Suzaku was 'wrong' or 'hypocritical'? And Suzaku was a hypocrite. The dictionary defn of a hypocrite is

I'm not upset actually. Just taken aback by how people refuse to see that the 'hypocrisy' of Suzaku's action is mostly his public face with the Japanese and the viewers like us. All the while Suzaku's own feelings is rather straightforward, if conflicted.

Suzaku talked about doing things the right way, the just way and about not endangering innocent people. But then again, he's a soldier for a very very bloody empire. This certainly seems to act in contradiction to his stated beliefs or feelings. Secondly, a person who puts on a false appearance of virtue or religion. See above, and in the end you find out Suzaku really just had an urge for atonement and death. I'm not blaming Suzaku for being hypocritical for 'betraying' his people. That's another matter whatsoever. However, he is hypocritical for the reasons I've stated above.

That is assuming if Suzaku felt he had alternative (again, Lelouch's rebellion rarely seemed feasible for most of the series and Suzaku has made his resolution and that was totally cemented after Euphie). If we're going by the way he changes sides on paper, it does *appear* to be hypocritical. But what about his own circumstances and how he follows his own philosophy as far as his own experiences go? You can't throw all that out of the window like it doesn't exist. It's really a two fold thing with Suzaku. His personal interaction and what he's doing in the big picture. I'm not disagreeing that it is a very conflicted thing to do, trying to change things from the 'inside'. That is not what's up for discussion here. It's whether his personal feelings are still intact despite it. And I see no reason to think that he has truly forgotten about the Japanese. Just that his revenge with Lelouch has taken the big stage for a while.

Also, his public appearance being all tidy and neat and all has no relevance IMO. Either he moves up the rank or he doesn't. There wasn't much of a choice as far as Suzaku's goals went. If that comes across as hypocritical on the outside, that's that. But that has little relevance to what his actual goals and feelings were.

You can say he appears hypocritical in a conventional sense, but in reality, by going about this roundabout way, he's not etc etc etc. But around here, we call that rationalization.

And that is wrong, why? Again, do you understand that I never said it didn't appear hypocritical on the outside because it clearly does appear to be just that? But we know the true story here and even with Suzaku's worst, he doesn't rule out his pacifistic tendencies (shooting enemies but never going for the kill, always saving Japanese he runs across). And like others said many times, Suzaku isn't the big-picture thinker the same way Lelouch is.

Whether Suzaku has changed enough in R2 to no longer be hypocritical (or as much of one) is hard to say because he hasn't had much showtime in R2 yet. But again, like I said, R2 Suzaku seems like end of S1 Suzaku to me.

I think that is the crucial difference. How Suzaku 'appears' and what his true motivations are. I think you put it almost subconsciously. He 'seems' less hypocritical or puts himself differently. But does that mean his emotions are any different? I'm just thinking that isn't necessarily so. If he appears hypocritical or not, that is not my decision.

How many times do you need to hear Suzaku preach about how he doesn't want innocent lifes to be lost? You act as if he needs to be a vocal advocate of Britannias brutal treatment to be hypocritical. But that's not true. By standing by and doing nothing, he's already being a hypocrite because if he truly believed in his own ideals, he would try and stop them. By joining an army which performs those very same brutalities in order to try and stop innocent lifes being lost, he's already being a hypocrite because he's just reinforcing the very same system he's trying to stop. It may be the only choice he sees for himself (and I stress the MAY) but it doesn't stop it from being any more hypocritical. Shit is shit, and sometimes you have to go through the shit to do things you think are right but that doesn't mean you're not tainted by the smell or the come out pristine white. -_-

And yet he didn't join BECAUSE he wanted to take part in it but because he felt compelled to do something. I mean, Suzaku is a total meathead. Join a military cause that is open to him (since rebellions were either too suppressed or rather wiped out by Britannia).

[mougrim]

Originally Posted by Airi

After PAGES of tortuous debating and intelligent opinions (from both sides)
.................................................. .................................................. .....
I don’t have words

He deserved such kind of post

1. He said he wanted to change empire from within.
2. To accomplice this, he enlist in army and become footman. Moron.
3. How he planned to change anything in this position? In autocratic empire (and Britannia IS a autocratic empire) soldier have choice: he either executing orders, or get executed by order of tribunal . Moron.

[Terrestrial Dream]

Originally Posted by mougrim

He deserved such kind of post

1. He said he wanted to change empire from within.
2. To accomplice this, he enlist in army and become footman. Moron.
3. How he planned to change anything in this position? In autocratic empire (and Britannia IS a autocratic empire) soldier have choice: he either executing orders, or get executed by order of tribunal . Moron.

I hate Suzaku to death and each time he appears he pisses me off, but what he is trying to do from what I see is to prove that Japanese are equal to the Britannian(?). That is how he is trying to change it from within just like the 54th Massachusetts regiment in the Civil War of Untied States. The 54th Massachusetts regiment were all African-American and went on a suicide mission, even though many died in the end they proved to the whites that African-American could fight well as the white and even made some white respect them. So Suzaku is trying to do similar thing by showing that Japanese are not inferior race. Anyhow even though I hate Suzaku I still got to respect what he is trying to do.

[Kingdom geass]

i saw on you tube a video of his geass

[KrimzonStriker]

Fake and if you believed it for a second then disperse yourself of those thoughts immediately