Character Discussion - Suzaku

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Originally Posted by ashlay

Nope. Japan can go ahead and burn for all Suzaku cares.

And Suzaku doesn't particularly think he's going to be the one causing change, it's more like allowing Britannia to continue as is will lead to reform/change in the long run. It's the opposite stance of Lelouch, who believes destroying Britannia and instituting new people in the position of rulers will lead to reform/change in the long run.

Suzaku is just the Knight of Seven and Lelouch is just the rebel Zero, they don't have any greater aspirations than those. In the end, they're betting on others to cause the actual changes in the government.

I was under the impression that Suzaku wants to change the world from within. At least from the subs for episode 2. He doesn't specify Britannia at least now, it's the world itself. If he has to lead the armies then so be it. As for the amount of deaths he has to deal with I'm pretty sure he's treating the same as Lelouch has done it.

If you want to change the world then you have to shed blood for it.

Though as Schenizeil pointed out, the world needs guidance and to add onto your quotes it wouldn't be surprising if both Suzaku and Lelouch inspire followers on all sides to bring forth the change. All they can do is show the door, they need the others to open it for them.

[ashlay]

Originally Posted by Ransom

I think trying to shoehorn a character into a 'villain' role kinda misses the whole point of the show. There's no white hat/black hat stuff going on here; even the monologue bit about "evil done with good intentions and good done with evil intentions" is a gross oversimplification. I might find Lelouch to be a reprehensible character, but I'm hardly going to call him the antagonist of the show; is an anti-hero still a villain? And while Suzaku might be Lelouch's antagonist, the writers clearly have much more sympathy for him than that label suggests.

Look, Lelouch is the protagonist, there's no ifs ands or buts about that. And that makes Suzaku an antagonist.

figure out who you classify as a hero or a villain, good and evil, on your own. Though that really is just simplifying the matter grossly. On the micro scale, the reasons to love or hate those two are based on nothing but your own personal preferences, not any kind of morality or sense of right and wrong.

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

I was under the impression that Suzaku wants to change the world from within. At least from the subs for episode 2. He doesn't specify Britannia at least now, it's the world itself. If he has to lead the armies then so be it. As for the amount of deaths he has to deal with I'm pretty sure he's treating the same as Lelouch has done it.

Britannia is Suzaku's vehicle for changes over all. No different from Lelouch's vehicle being Japan.

[Blue_Mercy]

Originally Posted by Valerian Mengsk

Hmmm, judging from the general tone of the forum arguing that he is not one as of R2 seems to be pretty unpopular, but I'll try anyway.

Okay, Suzaku believes(ed?) that changing the system from within will bring about a beneficial change in policy towards the Japanese by the Britannia government, leading to fewer restrictions, more independence, beginning the process of Elevens taking the path to becoming full-fledged Brittanians, all in the sake of peace.

Am I correct?

To do do so he enters into the military of an empire that closely resembles Imperial Rome in operation, class differentiation, policy, and political leadership.
(Side-note: In fact the Romans were far more ruthless in suppressing rebellions then even the Britannians, but I doubt Sunrise could legally depict that amount of carnage for public television)

As a member of this military organization, in order to gain rank and recognition he performs extraordinary tasks, even fighting against his own countrymen who are trying to free Japan. Why does he do this, because as a child, he watched as the monster of the Britannian military crush his country like an ant and leave it in ruin. We all know what he did then to stop any further destruction, so why does it surprise you that he is willing to go even further lengths to ensure the peace and livelihood of Japan. Suzaku believes that rebelling is impossible, and will only create more destruction.

How is he being a hypocrite? As for his unwillingness to kill, he displayed how powerful that conviction is to us all when he killed his own father years before. In truth that sentiment pales before his larger conviction for peace at any cost.

Suzaku is completely willingly to kill, betray, etc. anyone or anything in order to bring about what he sees as the most likely avenue to peace, true peace. And in his mind the peace is the Britannian Empire.

Now I'm not saying that his reasoning isn't flawed, but he damn well isn't being a hypocrite.

But just watch folks, I'm just waiting for him to do something that completely disproves my argument within the next 5-6 episodes.

Spoiler for My personal opinion of Suzaku:

BTW: I like the new Suzaku, but then again IMO he was always a villan.

Oh for the love of god, I thought we had put this to rest already. Don't take this the wrong way, this is more the way I feel about all people who bring up an issue that has already been answered 10,000 times over.

Now that my bashing is over, let me answer this once again.

This is the literal definition taking from Webster's dictionary: A hypocrite is a person who pretends to have virtues, moral or religious beliefs, principles, etc., that he or she does not actually possess, esp. a person whose actions belie stated beliefs.

Examples of Suzaku's hypocrisy:

-Accuses Zero of being a murderer when he had already killed his father.

-Accuses Lelouch of using people, then he uses Lelouch.

-Says he is in the army to save people yet gets the title God of Death.

-Accuses the Black Knight organization of self-gratification when thats what Suzaku wants.

Exactly how many examples do you need? Realize it has never been whether he was a hypocrite or not. He is, but can Suzaku fans look past his flaws and still like his character.

[Onizuka-GTO]

Originally Posted by Blue_Mercy

but can Suzaku fans look past his flaws and still like his character.[/B]

of course they can, its the reason Darth Vader or Bowser is still loved by many. The strength of their commitment is what makes them admirable to people no matter if that goal is flawed or not.

[KrimzonStriker]

Darth Vader and Bowser just kicked ass though, not try and talk us into playing nicely >_>

[Onizuka-GTO]

Originally Posted by KrimzonStriker

Darth Vader and Bowser just kicked ass though, not try and talk us into playing nicely >_>

he jumps into the middle of a fricking army and slaughter them all and can do pretty spinning hovering kicks.

if that's not kickarse, i dunno what is....

[Dann of Thursday]

That's the mech, not him. I don't see why that makes him likable.

[KrimzonStriker]

And he said "Surrender, I won't hurt anyone that lays down there arms" Darth Vadar would have been force-choking them to the ground and then ask for their surrender... once they were good and coldly stiff I mean

[Onizuka-GTO]

Originally Posted by Dann of Thursday

That's the mech, not him. I don't see why that makes him likable.

Well mech's also makes the man you know, well that's what Gundam says.

I'm sure the kira-clone would agree with me.

[Dann of Thursday]

I hate Kira Yamato. That aside, Suzaku isn't even doing that naturally since his enhanced abilities were given to him.

[KrimzonStriker]

The minute he went with Fllay was the minute I went pro-Athurn and then finished with Gundam Seed entirely >_>

[wingdarkness]

To all who are bashing Suzaku for hypocrisy:

Look I'm Lulu over Suzaku any day of the week and my dislike of him is more stemmed from the fact he's a self-loathing, overly-preachy, walking cliche, but I think many have overanalyzed their hate for this guy and are using every earthly dynamic available to complete this task...If I run across the street to save my siblings life, that's still clearly jaywalking by definition...But what's important is the impetus or the reasoning behind me jaywalking...Suzaku's hypocrisy is no different..Taking all this into account, what do you guys want from this dude?? (All hardcore "I hate Suzaku because he's a hypocritical bastard" - people)...NEWSFLASH!!! SUZAKU DOESN'T HAVE ANY GEASS POWERS :/...

From a practical perspective something like fixing the inner-workings of a flawed government is something that takes far more time than a 26 episode anime can display..It takes years and years and years...Lulu can skip all these limits with a nod and a Geass-flavored wink...I mean when you have Geass you can be the King of your own desires, but without it you have to use more practical applications for advancements...Suzaku feels in his mind that he'll swallow a little dirt before he makes a move (I assume)...But there's even a greater point to his staunchness...

After Yuffie gets fragged (regardless of circumstances he has no clue about concerning it being a mistake by Lulu), he gets pi$$ed...We all have to remember that while it's a 8 month break for us, in the Geass world Yuffie's death was still fresh on Suzaku's mind when he "sold out" Lulu to the emperor (as if he could have done anything else once he took him there )...If my best friend just killed a girl I loved I doubt I could listen or give credence to his reasoning in the first few days or the first time I saw him...So yeah Suzaku is indeed a hypocrite, but if only the definition matters we entirely miss what's written between the fine print...


We're all hypocrites in one way or another and if you live your entire life without ever contradicting yourself then you'll be the first...My problem with Suzaku isn't the fact he's a hypocrite, obviously he is, but the fact that he has no clue how to express himself at times which turns him into a naggy, walking cliche...I'm all for preachy black or white characters, but only when they are skillful at expressing themselves...Suzaku clearly isn't good at the skills that make characters like Lulu or DN's Light (or even L) have that aura of brilliance that excites audiences...So if you hate Suzaku because he's f*cking with the protagonist too much, that's fine...If you hate him for being a stuck-up douche that's fine too...,But all these deep character definitions making hypocrisy the criteria for hate is a bit too far for me...Lacking a metaphysical power-up from an alien-race you can't do much but eat some $hit, jump up the ladder, and bide your time if you're gonna change stuff from the inside of the military//government...To bash the character for his inability to do this is just ridiculous to me...He'd be an even bigger hypocrite if he were to cut the commitment he made to Yuffie and the military, especially after witnessing LuLu as Zero and her murderer...

[KrimzonStriker]

Uhmm, actually he does have Geass powers, which are apparently the source of his physical aptitude at least according to the staff interviews... so yeah, he loses even more of his already scarce appeal >_>

[wingdarkness]

LMAO so what's his Geass? The ability to make others hate him?^0^

Oh and thanks I guess for spoiling me like that when it hasn't been apparent in the anime...I'll hope that that's speculation because if it's not this series is gonna take a dip worse than episode 1...I just thought the dude was athletic...

Although now that I think about it, if his only Geass is physical attributes that's far less influential than mind-altering powers so my conclusion stands on him still not deserving to be bashed on the basis of being in the military and trying to change it within...

[KrimzonStriker]

Meh, it was kind of a stretch to allow him to dodge bullets and walk on walls as it was so now we've got something to answer that. What exactly 'it' is will be something to anticipate though...

[Dann of Thursday]

What do his abilties have to do with bashing him for being in the military?

[ashlay]

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

LMAO so what's his Geass? The ability to make others hate him?^0^

Oh and thanks I guess for spoiling me like that when it hasn't been apparent in the anime...I'll hope that that's speculation because if it's not this series is gonna take a dip worse than episode 1...I just thought the dude was athletic...

Although now that I think about it, if his only Geass is physical attributes that's far less influential than mind-altering powers so my conclusion stands on him still not deserving to be bashed on the basis of being in the military and trying to change it within...

Haven't you seen 19, 22 and 25?

Originally Posted by Dann of Thursday

What do his abilties have to do with bashing him for being in the military?

bashing doesn't have to make sense, that's why it's bashing. >_>


anyway, Suzaku isn't a hypocrite anymore. If you hate him, you hate him simply because he bet on Britannia instead of the Rebellion in one way or another. It's entirely a personal preference.

[Triple_R]

I think that Suzaku gets the hypocrite label applied to him so much because he spent most of the middle portions of Code Geass Season 1 rejecting Zero and the Black Knights based on their methods... as oppossed to rejecting them based on their goals.

He never outright said "I think that we '11s' should prove our mettle to Britannia by being law-abiding citizens and soldiers for Britannia - by proving our worth to them. That way, us '11s' will gradually become accepted as full and equal citizens of Britannia, and regain a sense of dignity and pride. The Order of the Black Knights stand in the way of that, and that's why I reject them."

If he had said that, I'd consider him very naive/overly optimistic about Britannia, but it wouldn't be inconsistant with anything that he's done, and hence I could perhaps even respect it somewhat. And, in fact, it's probably what Suzaku does think inside.

But he never said that - he repeatedly stressed how the methods of Zero and the Black Knights disgusted him; how they don't value individual lives enough. IOW, his main spoken gripe was with their methods , not their goals.

He chose an argument that makes him a hypocrite... when he didn't have to.

[wingdarkness]

Originally Posted by Dann of Thursday

What do his abilties have to do with bashing him for being in the military?

Keep in mind I've only seen the first 2 eps, so someone can pwn me if ep 3 shows something epic concerning this debate (I usually watch a crapload of stuff once a week and CG comes out too late for my weekend anime-session)...

But I read a $hitload of randomicity comments at work today and everybody was bashing him for being a hypocrite (The same happens here), and also saying he has done nothing to change things from the inside but sell his friend out...I was saying that if his Geass is only physical attributes it still absolves him of what I believe is the key dynamic between his way of making a difference and LuLu's way...With the Geass of mind manipulation you can skip seemingly all the rules, but to change the military from the inside out takes a practical scenerio inwhich people are asking too much of Suzaku, and this is coming from someone who doesn't like Suzaku that much either...

Originally Posted by ashlay

Haven't you seen 19, 22 and 25?

Yeah like a year ago ..Obviously I need to re-watch the part where Suzaku is implied to have a Geass..I still don't like it though...

[ashlay]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

He chose an argument that makes him a hypocrite... when he didn't have to.

Made him a hypocrite Triple_R. Past tense. Every last bit of that Suzaku died with his capture in 24. >_>