AnimeSuki Forums

Sojourner · 2008-05-30, 20:37

I can only say with great gar comes great hate or awe.

Just as keikaku.

http://bluefoxalley.com/2008/05/31/o...g-not-otaking/

P.S - I did not write that. My co-writer did.

Calawain · 2008-05-30, 21:31

I can't believe this guy wasted hours of his time to nitpick at crap that the vast majority of current fansub watchers don't care about. If people want your style of dumbed down subtitling they can buy the DVDs when they come out.

A.M.S. · 2008-05-31, 11:50

I got pointed to this topic by FalseDawn and at first I wasn't going to bother writing anything. Why? Because: 1. It's a troll by someone who doesn't know the first thing about fansubbing, so they can't really have anything useful to say as they are mostly going to be talking out of their ass. And, 2. It's a waste of time for fansubbers to worry about people like these. I mean, every time you respond to something like this you are at your computer not fansubbing, which means it stalls whatever project a fansubber is working on. But I thought I could add a couple of things to this debate that could dispel some myths it seems non-fansubbers seem to have (all the time not fansubbing and stalling something I'm working on).

Myth #1 - All fansubbers understand Japanese.

Fact: They don't.

Myth #2 - All fansubbers fansub for ego and download numbers.

Fact: They don't. Some fansubbers fansub because they really like a show and a really good way to see a show is it to help out the group working on it so that you can see it before it gets released. Others simply enjoy the hobby as it can be challenging and it helps them work on some skills. Lastly, some fansubbers hate leechers. If they were doing it for download numbers, then it would be a very strange hypocritical stance to fansub for download numbers and at that same time hate the leechers who download the files. The fact is fansub groups provide a good way for those who enjoy anime to get to watch series' they enjoy translated. If they didn't release files to the public, it would be difficult to recruit members to assist in creating fansubs. This is obviously because no one would know you were fansubbing and thus no one would contact you to help you with your work. To some fansubbers releasing to the public is simply a necessary evil to achieve what they want to.

But, no, me leecher, me know all bout fansubbin... you dumb fansubber... you do what i say cuz u need me to download urz show... which is garbage by the way. U owe me! (the "You owe me" bit is always what gets me... I mean... seriously...) Me's englihs is ways betterz than urz 2. U suck! (this isn't all leechers... but it's the majority of leechers that contact fansubbers from my experience)

Myth #3 - English is the first language of all fansubbers.

Fact: It isn't. While it may be mine, I have met more fansubbers whose first language isn't English than is. Moreover, I have been contacted by more people whose first language isn't English complaining or complementing Saizen's work than I have from people whose first language is English.

Anyway, as far as the documentary goes. It's a troll meant to incense fansubbers and fansub fans. No sane minded person could really think a youtube documentary would change fansubbing. People are going to do what they want to do. That's what makes it a hobby and not a vocational pursuit. There are always going to be haters. It's a fact of life. No matter what anyone ever does in life, there is always going to be someone who hates on you for it. Whether it be career choice, getting married, moving, fansubbing... whatever it is, there will be haters that'll try to bring you down. I think it's that it makes them feel better about themselves if they can criticize people. Sort of like, "I'm not so bad, look at that guy. He sucks!" It's really a petty sort of way to live, but, whatever, to each their own.

I have a question for all the fansubbers out there. When you were a kid and people asked you what you wanted to be when you grew up, did you say, "I want to be a fansubber?"

Oh... I guess I should add what I do and what group I work with. I'm the head editor over at Saizen. Though I've met a few people in this topic already

Starks · 2008-05-31, 14:11

*watches documentary*

Haha. Oh wow...

I might just write a lengthy report about this turd of documentary later.

False Dawn · 2008-05-31, 14:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sojourner

I can only say with great gar comes great hate or awe.

Just as keikaku.

http://bluefoxalley.com/2008/05/31/o...g-not-otaking/

P.S - I did not write that. My co-writer did.

Rofl! Is that a real fansub? Good job on not stealing Saizen's translations at all...

Edit: I'm flattered that you think our subs are the cream of the crop, but to be fair, I prefer it with the English translations rather than the random Japanese words ^_^

Jaka · 2008-06-01, 00:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calawain

I can't believe this guy wasted hours of his time to nitpick at crap that the vast majority of current fansub watchers don't care about. If people want your style of dumbed down subtitling they can buy the DVDs when they come out.

good trolling.

also, not all anime can get licensed and release in the r1 industry.

eg. macross

Autumn Demon · 2008-06-01, 11:26

Terrible documentary. I hate it when words like Oneechan and Ojisan are translated; I'd even rather see the words for 'I' and 'you' left untranslated, as well as sentence endings left in like the vid was talking about. Translations notes are a great thing; what's so hard about just pausing the anime for a second to read additional information and maybe learn something useful?

The alternative to not having translation notes is a scary thought: the translator taking it upon them self to change what was said so people who only know English-speaking cultures can understand it. When I watch fansubs I sometimes worry that what I'm reading is not what was really said but instead what the translator thought should be said. It's best just to keep translations as close to the original Japanese as possible, and not try to be a master of the vernacular.

That said, translations notes can be awful when they give away spoilers or are just some random commentary that the translator wanted to add like "lol" or "so wrong

". Minami-ke was the last show I saw that had some of that.

Overall, fansubs are great these days and we should be much indebted to the fansubbers that spend the time to make these great shows available to non-Japanese speakers. Hopefully fansubs will continue becoming more literal so viewers can get a better understanding of Japanese linguistics.

DryFire · 2008-06-01, 11:57

wow, a lot of unnecessarily long posts. Please try to craft terse responses

I think the documentary was a pretty funny troll. Sadly, there are so many horrid releases to pick examples from.

Rekunoto · 2008-06-01, 15:27

Although his video is terribly one sided, he does bring up my one petpeeve when he mentions fansub groups putting their names next to the actual creators. I am not talking about having a small logo of the group name on the front, I am talking about each and every staff member having their name written down by the actual director/seiyuu/animators.

But besides that, I have no idea why he would waste so much time on such a "documentary".

HurricaneHige · 2008-06-01, 16:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rekunoto

Although his video is terribly one sided, he does bring up my one petpeeve when he mentions fansub groups putting their names next to the actual creators. I am not talking about having a small logo of the group name on the front, I am talking about each and every staff member having their name written down by the actual director/seiyuu/animators.

But besides that, I have no idea why he would waste so much time on such a "documentary".

Well they are providing a service to us, they can credit themselves no? I mean they are not erasing the original credits and replacing their names on it, I don't see a problem tbh.

This documentary is clearly a troll attempt, if not then the dude is seeking attention on the interweb. Judging by this thread as well as others like it, he succeeded.

Slice of Life · 2008-06-01, 16:51

The tag list for this thread has reached 17 entries and resembles less and less a search help and more and more a Greek chorus commenting the whole tragicomedy that is unfolding here.

jfs · 2008-06-01, 17:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Autumn Demon

I hate it when words like Oneechan and Ojisan are translated; I'd even rather see the words for 'I' and 'you' left untranslated, as well as sentence endings left in like the vid was talking about.

Ok so you want stuff like: (Made up on the spot, not from anywhere specific.)
"So, ore went to the suupaa and bought some onigiri for ore and oneechan-tachi naa."
I am disgusted.
That's not a translation. The point of subtitles - no matter whether it's Japanese anime, a Disney movie or the latest Hollywood flick - is to provide a translation. A translation ideally only contains words regularly used in the target language, because otherwise it's not a text in the target language.
But that's the topic of another thread.

Quote:

Hopefully fansubs will continue becoming more literal so viewers can get a better understanding of Japanese linguistics.

Since when has the point of fansubs been making educational material? Anime (and fansubs) is not and has never been intended to be a way to learn Japanese, simply because it's not Japanese as spoken in everyday Japan. There are lots of good ways to learn Japanese, but watching anime is not one of them. (It can, however, supplement other proper methods.)

Oh btw., I haven't actually watched the documentary in question and won't bother doing so, so I'm not going to comment on that one.

for a memory · 2008-06-01, 18:17

lulz, youtube. Anime fansubbing is good. Try watching a drama sub. Any damage done to your eye sight is not my fault. At least most of us anime fansubbers are aware an ellipse looks like "...". Take a bowl of salt as you watch some of the translations. At least more (I say more because one or two do use chinese translators) anime subbers use translators who translate from the original language. Of course anime fansubbing is more advanced than drama subbing so you can't compare these either before you go off and pretend to be an asian drama character and start making another youtube video. =_=

Would you rather have credits beside the creators or in bright big fonts? But not all [anime] fansubs have credits. And drama subbers don't really need logos. They just slap on a watermark.

martino · 2008-06-01, 18:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by for a memory

And drama subbers don't really need logos. They just slap on a watermark.

Oh god yes. It's like encoding with the free DivX encoder that slaps the stupid "DivX" watermark on (does it still? It used to anyway.). Mind telling them to stop doing it please?

*huggles memory*

D404 · 2008-06-01, 19:43

lulz... that's just VERY VERY TIP of the iceberg that is drama encoding.

Autumn Demon · 2008-06-01, 19:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by jfs

Ok so you want stuff like: (Made up on the spot, not from anywhere specific.)
"So, ore went to the suupaa and bought some onigiri for ore and oneechan-tachi naa."

If ore would ever appear twice in a sentence like that, then yes, I do.

If it were possible to translate Japanese into English using only words that English speakers know without losing some of the subtleties that Japanese has, then I would be for that. But I don't think that's possible, as saying ore instead of boku or whatever and ending the sentence with naa has meaning that a pure English translation can't convey.

Emotions, feelings, and connections are lost in pure English translations which make it harder for someone viewing the sub to completely understand character interactions. A subber could of course try to convey those untranslatable Japanese terms with other English phrases, but that would most likely result in text that isn't reflective of what's really being said, sometimes drastically. That's why I advocate more literal translations; it seems to me like it would be both easier for the subber and more helpful to viewers in understanding anime.

Nagumo · 2008-06-01, 20:45

I've watched only 2 out of 5 of the documentary before stopping myself from seeing the rest to meditate upon the complaints and criticism that Otakuking had presented.

But unfortunately, seeing that he's complaining about fansubbers and professionalism my mind could not comprehend.

Why in the name god would he expect fansubbers to be professional in their translation?

Irenicus · 2008-06-02, 00:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slice of Life

The tag list for this thread has reached 17 entries and resembles less and less a search help and more and more a Greek chorus commenting the whole tragicomedy that is unfolding here.

I'm tempted to tag this thread "tag abuse" too. Do you think I should do it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Autumn Demon

If ore would ever appear twice in a sentence like that, then yes, I do.

If it were possible to translate Japanese into English using only words that English speakers know without losing some of the subtleties that Japanese has, then I would be for that. But I don't think that's possible, as saying ore instead of boku or whatever and ending the sentence with naa has meaning that a pure English translation can't convey.

...wow.

Do you even understand the concept of translation?

Haruyasha · 2008-06-02, 00:48

I would have to agree on the hardsubbed trivia.

It is very annoying indeed, especially when it has a background.

I'd say.. make it either softsubbed on a different track, or don't include it at all.

Karaoke during action scenes is also very annoying, especially when the song had been the introduction for the first 14 or so episodes of the anime. (Shakugan no Shana II).

Personally, I would want fansubbers to keep subtitles as simple as possible.. Nothing flashy.. etc.

I don't mind the honorifics tho.

Natrone · 2008-06-02, 08:30

The man does not present a balanced view of the issue, but honestly, with a video-editorial rant like that (it's not a documentary, by any means), what do you expect? I mean, even if he did present a balanced view, the anime retards would still flame him. He KNEW such a film would generate controversy and debate (I mean look at the end), so he might as well completely relish in it.

In regards to the professionalism bit:
It makes quite a bit of sense for fansubbers to do LESS work on translations (and leaving words in Japanese), so that the end result is less professional.
It makes little sense for fansubbers to do MORE work on fancy subtitle texts, karaoke, etc., so that the result is also less professional.

These two ideas conflict, which creates a contradiction in OtaKing's own argument, but it ALSO creates a contradiction in EVERYONE ELSE'S argument in regards to "Why do fansubbers need to be professional?"

There is a spectrum here (with two very extreme sides), and only a balanced view of things will help us progress further toward success.

However, here's some additional food for thought that Otaking didn't even make, but I'm willing to go out on a limb and put out here:

The desire to have anime fansubs present Japanese as an awesome language that should be studied and interspersed with English (i.e. "That's so kawaii!" or "You're a baka!") is a reflection of the culture of one type of anime fan (maybe the weaboos, but it's probably a little larger than just them). This DOES alienate potential new fans from watching anime. "What's the big deal? People who aren't into anime doesn't watch fansubs anyway," you might say.

The problem is that it's affecting the actual industry. Look at the commercial releases of Excel Saga with AD-Vid notes turned on or Azumanga Daioh dub (which has the English voice actors use honorifics in English!). Obviously, the industry responded to that one demographic (which is nice - you have to admit the anime industry is one of the MOST responsive to its consumers compared to other industries), but it potentially can paint them into a corner of remaining a niche and struggling medium.

And, of course, that's what the weaboos (and fans of other things like them) want - they want something unique and underground that they will abandon once it becomes too mainstream. Most of them don't want to pay for anime in the first place!

Feel free to disagree with me on this, but there are certainly some signs that this is a possible contributing factor to the problems the anime industry is recently facing, with the disapperance of Geneon and the cutbacks ADV has initiated (layoffs, removing ADVocates, Gurren Lagann and other titles, etc.).

2008-05-30, 20:37	Link #161
Sojourner Junior Member Join Date: May 2008	I can only say with great gar comes great hate or awe. Just as keikaku. http://bluefoxalley.com/2008/05/31/o...g-not-otaking/ P.S - I did not write that. My co-writer did. Last edited by Sojourner; 2008-05-31 at 07:12. Reason: For clarifications

2008-05-31, 14:11	Link #164
Starks I see what you did there! Scanlator Join Date: Apr 2004 Age: 36	watches documentary Haha. Oh wow... I might just write a lengthy report about this turd of documentary later. __________________ My list of garbage anime

2008-06-01, 15:27	Link #169
Rekunoto Banned Join Date: Dec 2007	1/2 and 1/2 Although his video is terribly one sided, he does bring up my one petpeeve when he mentions fansub groups putting their names next to the actual creators. I am not talking about having a small logo of the group name on the front, I am talking about each and every staff member having their name written down by the actual director/seiyuu/animators. But besides that, I have no idea why he would waste so much time on such a "documentary".

2008-06-01, 16:51	Link #171
Slice of Life eyewitness Join Date: Jan 2007	The tag list for this thread has reached 17 entries and resembles less and less a search help and more and more a Greek chorus commenting the whole tragicomedy that is unfolding here. __________________ - Any ideas how to fill this space?

2008-06-01, 20:45	Link #177
Nagumo Random Translator Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: New Brunswick	I've watched only 2 out of 5 of the documentary before stopping myself from seeing the rest to meditate upon the complaints and criticism that Otakuking had presented. But unfortunately, seeing that he's complaining about fansubbers and professionalism my mind could not comprehend. Why in the name god would he expect fansubbers to be professional in their translation? __________________ I do not like Kansai-ben, but I do like Hayate-chan! Also, Canadian here, not actually Japanese.

2008-05-30, 21:31	Link #162
Calawain Gaijin Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: New York, NY	I can't believe this guy wasted hours of his time to nitpick at crap that the vast majority of current fansub watchers don't care about. If people want your style of dumbed down subtitling they can buy the DVDs when they come out.

2008-05-31, 11:50	Link #163
A.M.S. Saizen Fansubber Join Date: Jun 2007	I got pointed to this topic by FalseDawn and at first I wasn't going to bother writing anything. Why? Because: 1. It's a troll by someone who doesn't know the first thing about fansubbing, so they can't really have anything useful to say as they are mostly going to be talking out of their ass. And, 2. It's a waste of time for fansubbers to worry about people like these. I mean, every time you respond to something like this you are at your computer not fansubbing, which means it stalls whatever project a fansubber is working on. But I thought I could add a couple of things to this debate that could dispel some myths it seems non-fansubbers seem to have (all the time not fansubbing and stalling something I'm working on). Myth #1 - All fansubbers understand Japanese. Fact: They don't. Myth #2 - All fansubbers fansub for ego and download numbers. Fact: They don't. Some fansubbers fansub because they really like a show and a really good way to see a show is it to help out the group working on it so that you can see it before it gets released. Others simply enjoy the hobby as it can be challenging and it helps them work on some skills. Lastly, some fansubbers hate leechers. If they were doing it for download numbers, then it would be a very strange hypocritical stance to fansub for download numbers and at that same time hate the leechers who download the files. The fact is fansub groups provide a good way for those who enjoy anime to get to watch series' they enjoy translated. If they didn't release files to the public, it would be difficult to recruit members to assist in creating fansubs. This is obviously because no one would know you were fansubbing and thus no one would contact you to help you with your work. To some fansubbers releasing to the public is simply a necessary evil to achieve what they want to. But, no, me leecher, me know all bout fansubbin... you dumb fansubber... you do what i say cuz u need me to download urz show... which is garbage by the way. U owe me! (the "You owe me" bit is always what gets me... I mean... seriously...) Me's englihs is ways betterz than urz 2. U suck! (this isn't all leechers... but it's the majority of leechers that contact fansubbers from my experience) Myth #3 - English is the first language of all fansubbers. Fact: It isn't. While it may be mine, I have met more fansubbers whose first language isn't English than is. Moreover, I have been contacted by more people whose first language isn't English complaining or complementing Saizen's work than I have from people whose first language is English. Anyway, as far as the documentary goes. It's a troll meant to incense fansubbers and fansub fans. No sane minded person could really think a youtube documentary would change fansubbing. People are going to do what they want to do. That's what makes it a hobby and not a vocational pursuit. There are always going to be haters. It's a fact of life. No matter what anyone ever does in life, there is always going to be someone who hates on you for it. Whether it be career choice, getting married, moving, fansubbing... whatever it is, there will be haters that'll try to bring you down. I think it's that it makes them feel better about themselves if they can criticize people. Sort of like, "I'm not so bad, look at that guy. He sucks!" It's really a petty sort of way to live, but, whatever, to each their own. I have a question for all the fansubbers out there. When you were a kid and people asked you what you wanted to be when you grew up, did you say, "I want to be a fansubber?" Oh... I guess I should add what I do and what group I work with. I'm the head editor over at Saizen. Though I've met a few people in this topic already

2008-06-01, 11:26	Link #167
Autumn Demon ~ Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Boston Age: 35	Terrible documentary. I hate it when words like Oneechan and Ojisan are translated; I'd even rather see the words for 'I' and 'you' left untranslated, as well as sentence endings left in like the vid was talking about. Translations notes are a great thing; what's so hard about just pausing the anime for a second to read additional information and maybe learn something useful? The alternative to not having translation notes is a scary thought: the translator taking it upon them self to change what was said so people who only know English-speaking cultures can understand it. When I watch fansubs I sometimes worry that what I'm reading is not what was really said but instead what the translator thought should be said. It's best just to keep translations as close to the original Japanese as possible, and not try to be a master of the vernacular. That said, translations notes can be awful when they give away spoilers or are just some random commentary that the translator wanted to add like "lol" or "so wrong ". Minami-ke was the last show I saw that had some of that. Overall, fansubs are great these days and we should be much indebted to the fansubbers that spend the time to make these great shows available to non-Japanese speakers. Hopefully fansubs will continue becoming more literal so viewers can get a better understanding of Japanese linguistics.

2008-06-01, 11:57	Link #168
DryFire Panda Herder Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: A bombed out building in Beruit.	wow, a lot of unnecessarily long posts. Please try to craft terse responses I think the documentary was a pretty funny troll. Sadly, there are so many horrid releases to pick examples from.

2008-06-01, 18:17	Link #173
for a memory anti-\pos-timing Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: UK	lulz, youtube. Anime fansubbing is good. Try watching a drama sub. Any damage done to your eye sight is not my fault. At least most of us anime fansubbers are aware an ellipse looks like "...". Take a bowl of salt as you watch some of the translations. At least more (I say more because one or two do use chinese translators) anime subbers use translators who translate from the original language. Of course anime fansubbing is more advanced than drama subbing so you can't compare these either before you go off and pretend to be an asian drama character and start making another youtube video. =_= Would you rather have credits beside the creators or in bright big fonts? But not all [anime] fansubs have credits. And drama subbers don't really need logos. They just slap on a watermark.

2008-06-01, 19:43	Link #175
D404 Banned Join Date: Aug 2006	lulz... that's just VERY VERY TIP of the iceberg that is drama encoding.

2008-06-02, 00:48	Link #179
Haruyasha 名前は？ Scanlator Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Washington Age: 35	I would have to agree on the hardsubbed trivia. It is very annoying indeed, especially when it has a background. I'd say.. make it either softsubbed on a different track, or don't include it at all. Karaoke during action scenes is also very annoying, especially when the song had been the introduction for the first 14 or so episodes of the anime. (Shakugan no Shana II). Personally, I would want fansubbers to keep subtitles as simple as possible.. Nothing flashy.. etc. I don't mind the honorifics tho.

2008-06-02, 08:30	Link #180
Natrone Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2008	The man does not present a balanced view of the issue, but honestly, with a video-editorial rant like that (it's not a documentary, by any means), what do you expect? I mean, even if he did present a balanced view, the anime retards would still flame him. He KNEW such a film would generate controversy and debate (I mean look at the end), so he might as well completely relish in it. In regards to the professionalism bit: It makes quite a bit of sense for fansubbers to do LESS work on translations (and leaving words in Japanese), so that the end result is less professional. It makes little sense for fansubbers to do MORE work on fancy subtitle texts, karaoke, etc., so that the result is also less professional. These two ideas conflict, which creates a contradiction in OtaKing's own argument, but it ALSO creates a contradiction in EVERYONE ELSE'S argument in regards to "Why do fansubbers need to be professional?" There is a spectrum here (with two very extreme sides), and only a balanced view of things will help us progress further toward success. However, here's some additional food for thought that Otaking didn't even make, but I'm willing to go out on a limb and put out here: The desire to have anime fansubs present Japanese as an awesome language that should be studied and interspersed with English (i.e. "That's so kawaii!" or "You're a baka!") is a reflection of the culture of one type of anime fan (maybe the weaboos, but it's probably a little larger than just them). This DOES alienate potential new fans from watching anime. "What's the big deal? People who aren't into anime doesn't watch fansubs anyway," you might say. The problem is that it's affecting the actual industry. Look at the commercial releases of Excel Saga with AD-Vid notes turned on or Azumanga Daioh dub (which has the English voice actors use honorifics in English!). Obviously, the industry responded to that one demographic (which is nice - you have to admit the anime industry is one of the MOST responsive to its consumers compared to other industries), but it potentially can paint them into a corner of remaining a niche and struggling medium. And, of course, that's what the weaboos (and fans of other things like them) want - they want something unique and underground that they will abandon once it becomes too mainstream. Most of them don't want to pay for anime in the first place! Feel free to disagree with me on this, but there are certainly some signs that this is a possible contributing factor to the problems the anime industry is recently facing, with the disapperance of Geneon and the cutbacks ADV has initiated (layoffs, removing ADVocates, Gurren Lagann and other titles, etc.).