Character Discussion - Suzaku

[UFO888]

@Sodierofdarkness:

I dont know why you kind of getting angry at me or is it just my imagination?

But still here is the example you want: by enrolling in the army services, he is fate to killing. The scene he fought with the EU is the clearest example, or when he killed those so called territorists, or farther in time is when he crushed the interven china army in Japan. Ok, it is war, he is sodiler in battle field so he has to follow order and kill the enemies. And it is perfectly right for him to do so, after all what do you expect a sodier on the battlefield do? However, it does not change the fact that he has killed alot of his "enemies."

One must ask that ever since war is a good thing and killing in war is a honorable act. Go to battle field and kill as much enemies/bararian/whatever as you can for the sake of world peace/the motherland/whatever is a propandaga used by the goverment to muster and manipulate its people to war for its purpose. Suzaku killed britinia enemies makes him a hero in front of britinian (if they ever are proud of him that is) it doesnt change the fact that his hand is stain with blood of people from the other races outside of britinia. And i bet they would love to call him a hero.

Do you get what i try to say now? When you are involved in a war, sorry you are no longer innocent (with the exception of the red cross organization). But sadly, recently state goverment also begins to use the red cross uniform to deceive and deal with terrorists...

Besides how do you justify his action of doing nothing while his friends is being brainwashed? He can do nothing besides following orders to watch zero which may result in furhter harm for nunnally?

@canis: he may not believes it was the morally right thing to do. But he is still doing nothing and also take advantage of that (checking zero memories and spies). And isnt it like he accepts it to get his revenge? Since when silent to wrong does is a good thing? I do not say that you are obligate to stand up to fight "da power" like a hero. But if you stay silent then do not call yourself a hero. And yes, i know suzaku do not say out right that he is hero of justice. But he said more than enough about his preachy and sees zero as ultra evil while he is also the same.

Sure, zero beleives in his doing, but he knows he will have to get his hands dirty very dirty to get what he wants. But suzaku while condem of zero underhanded tactics also gets his hands dirty as hell. But he thinks his hands still clean and shiny. The fact that he still sees himself as more justice than zero is enought to show how delusional he is. I mean come on, he is a "white reaper" not a "white knight." But apparently, he can not see it.

[canis]

Angry? Sorry, if it appeared that way it wasn't my intention...

But that was exactly what I was getting at. Suzaku doesn't believe he's innocent.
It's the opposite, he views himself as a sinner and he always did ever since he killed his father.
He doesn't like fighting, but he will do it if necessary...
He doesn't like killing but he will do so if he thinks it's necessary...
Suzaku has accepted his path and death is a part of it.

[UFO888]

Originally Posted by canis

Angry? Sorry, if it appeared that way it wasn't my intention...

But that was exactly what I was getting at. Suzaku doesn't believe he's innocent.
It's the opposite, he views himself as a sinner and he always did ever since he killed his father.
He doesn't like fighting, but he will do it if necessary...
He doesn't like killing but he will do so if he thinks it's necessary...
Suzaku has accepted his path and death is a part of it.

The angry part doesnt direct at you. And you even said that he will killing if necessary then that just make his method similar to zero. But the point is suzaku still sees himself far moral and better than zero. I just cant make sene of his way of thinking.

[Juvyniled]

Originally Posted by UFO888

I dont know why you kind of getting angry at me or is it just my imagination?

But still here is the example you want: by enrolling in the army services, he is fate to killing. The scene he fought with the EU is the clearest example, or when he killed those so called territorists, or farther in time is when he crushed the interven china army in Japan. Ok, it is war, he is sodiler in battle field so he has to follow order and kill the enemies. And it is perfectly right for him to do so, after all what do you expect a sodier on the battlefield do? However, it does not change the fact that he has killed alot of his "enemies."

One must ask that ever since war is a good thing and killing in war is a honorable act. Go to battle field and kill as much enemies/bararian/whatever as you can for the sake of world peace/the motherland/whatever is a propandaga used by the goverment to muster and manipulate its people to war for its purpose. Suzaku killed britinia enemies makes him a hero in front of britinian (if they ever are proud of him that is) it doesnt change the fact that his hand is stain with blood of people from the other races outside of britinia. And i bet they would love to call him a hero.

Do you get what i try to say now? When you are involved in a war, sorry you are no longer innocent (with the exception of the red cross organization). But sadly, recently state goverment also begins to use the red cross uniform to deceive and deal with terrorists...

Not exactly sure what this has to do with morality. A soldier acts primarily under one instinct, kill or be killed. They cannot legitimately defy their orders. If Suzaku defies his orders he loses his status. Plain and simple. But yet, Suzaku has not been ordered directly ordered to murder unarmed civilians. The application of moral judgment to his actions is therefore invalid because he acts in accordance with the duties and necessities of a soldier.

Originally Posted by UFO888

@DN24: I never said that you consider him a saint or hero. The point is that he still thinks he is a moral hero. That is what makes me angry at him. If he just admits that the evil things he has done is evil then I would not care whatever he wants to do next with the exception of nunnally, kaguya and CC.

On the side note, he sees himself as moral and all, but he still stands and does nothing knowing that his friends be brainwashed. He is still willing to work under charles. I dont think that suit who he claims to be very well. And he said he will change the system but he has to follow orders as less for now. And I woud not think that all the orders he is given are honorable considering how Britinia acts. So he fates to committe crime as some point which further show how denial he is.

Area 11 does not fare any better without Suzaku's presence in the Britannian army. Suzaku is likely to face racism, but he still maintains influence. Not many a member of Britannian society would likely have considered addressing Eleven plight, nor would any other individual have been able to push such an issue. It's true that it was not of his own action, but Suzaku instigated such feelings into Euphemia, who translated it into action. Ineffective or otherwise, an idea was acted upon. Now, many argue that there were ulterior motives by higher ranking Britannians, but consider this: allowing such a leeway to those considered inferior would only undermine Britannian authority. Britannians who believe they are superior would likely view such action first and foremost as a sign of weakness (arguably pity, but Britannia promotes the idea of survival of the strongest and such action would only serve to continue the existence of inferior beings).

Originally Posted by animeboy12

I remember in s1 Lelouch said suzaku saved Japan from a worse fate by killing his father

That is really a matter of perspective and personal judgment, not a fact.

[UFO888]

@juvyniled: the moral is that one you kill for whatever reasons, you had commited a kill. The problem is that suzaku doesnt seem to have any problem while he follows orders and killed his enemies. SO can be said for zero who killed his enemies for his purpose and so are the rest of terorists who also killed their enemies. Suzaku condems zero and terorists killing as wrong and immoral, but he also killed his enemies. Hello, isnt there something very wrong here?

Furthermore, suazku has condemed the terorists even before they get civilians involed. Yes before, the narita battle. And you may say that suzaku only kills soldiers which is true. But the contries civilians that were defeated by him are being kill by the britinian goverment. Now dont say that it doesnt related to suzaku. However, suzaku apparently or at least the author doesnt show his regret or what ever feelings he has toward those people.

[blitz1/2]

Rewatched 15, I liked how calm and menacing Suzaku was when he asked Kallen if she knew who Zero was and told her to swear to Shirley's grave.

Too bad she didn;t get injected or killed, it would get rid of one useless character (Kallen).

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

Episode 8. When Suzaku is going over about whether or not Lelouch has regained his memories and if so, to answer him why he killed Euphie.

I would not say that Suzaku does not have much say in how the place gets run. First and most of all, he's the Knight of 7, one of the Emperor's closest associates. Therefore he himself is a represenative of the Emperor. If Suzaku wishes to attend some meetings and make some decisions then he has the authority to do so.

If he doesn't attend most of the meetings then he simply doesn't and that's out of choice. In the long run he's not there to run the place anyways so it's better to leave it to the people who will stay there (nunnally for example).

Everybody gets credit.

Lelouch's operation was set up to give Nunnally and Britannia in general crediblity in governing them.

That and he removed the majority of those that don't want it anyways.

He can make suggestions maybe, but his authority is in military, not in government. Sitting in and determining policy are two very different things. Lelouch's operation was set up to take Nunnally out of the picture. It wasn't to make the government seem credible. It was in fact mocking them by throwing the law in their faces.

I'll admit Suzaku's decision would give the people faith in the government, but he was between a rock and a hard place. It was either that or slaughter one million defenseless Zero look-alikes. Such an act might have likely sparked another rebellion. The only hand he had in any of this was being forced into making the call, thus I hardly consider his actions a contribution to improving Japan. This one instance aside, he's pretty much been consumed by the system he intends to change.

[Deviannite]

Originally Posted by blitz1/2

Rewatched 15, I liked how calm and menacing Suzaku was when he asked Kallen if she knew who Zero was and told her to swear to Shirley's grave.

Too bad she didn;t get injected or killed, it would get rid of one useless character (Kallen).

We'll it's a good think Kallen didn't die or get injected She's far too usefull.

[UFO888]

Originally Posted by blitz1/2

Rewatched 15, I liked how calm and menacing Suzaku was when he asked Kallen if she knew who Zero was and told her to swear to Shirley's grave.

Too bad she didn;t get injected or killed, it would get rid of one useless character (Kallen).

Just for the sake of last post before bedtime.

Rewatched 15, I liked how afraid Suzaku was when he was lying to nunnally but got discoverd.

[blitz1/2]

Originally Posted by Deviannite

We'll it's a good think Kallen didn't die or get injected She's far too usefull.

Only as Lulu's sex slave and a mech pilot.

@UFO: Nunally = final boss flag up!

[DarkLordOfkichiku]

Originally Posted by blitz1/2

Only as Lulu's sex slave and a mech pilot.

Now, that first thing isn't a nice thing to call her, is it, considering that she refused to be exactly that in episode 7, you know?

[blitz1/2]

Originally Posted by DarkLordOfkichiku

Now, that first thing isn't a nice thing to call her, is it, considering that she refused to be exactly that in episode 7, you know?

meh...I was never a Kallen fan to begin with. She had too weak of a character anyways.

wow, if Nunnally leaves Suzaku he really has no more friends to support him. He'll become insane one day.

[DarkLordOfkichiku]

Originally Posted by blitz1/2

meh...I was never a Kallen fan to begin with. She had too weak of a character anyways.

Hey, I was never (and still isn't) a Suzaku fan to begin with either, but I don't go around insulting/bashing him just because I don't like him either .

Originally Posted by blitz1/2

wow, if Nunnally leaves Suzaku he really has no more friends to support him. He'll become insane one day.

Meh, as things stand now, Suzaku and Lelouch are both candidates for that

[Juvyniled]

Originally Posted by UFO888

@juvyniled: the moral is that one you kill for whatever reasons, you had commited a kill. The problem is that suzaku doesnt seem to have any problem while he follows orders and killed his enemies. SO can be said for zero who killed his enemies for his purpose and so are the rest of terorists who also killed their enemies. Suzaku condems zero and terorists killing as wrong and immoral, but he also killed his enemies. Hello, isnt there something very wrong here?

Furthermore, suazku has condemed the terorists even before they get civilians involed. Yes before, the narita battle. And you may say that suzaku only kills soldiers which is true. But the contries civilians that were defeated by him are being kill by the britinian goverment. Now dont say that it doesnt related to suzaku. However, suzaku apparently or at least the author doesnt show his regret or what ever feelings he has toward those people.

Suzaku does not have eyes all over the place. In one particular instance, Suzaku condemned Zero because he had threatened to release a bomb in the vicinity of civilians. And yes, he has repeatedly criticized Zero's actions. But you have to consider that he does not fully know what Zero's intentions are. He does not possess Geass; he is informed mostly by those who have a stake in the entire conflict. Consider the JLF rebels who decided to use hostages, IE. unarmed civilians, to get what they wanted. Is that not condemnable? Now if we consider another instance wherein civilians were murdered in the Shinjuku ghettos by Britannian forces, it was a completely confidential operation to retrieve the pod containing C.C. Suzaku was only left to believe that rebel retalliation in the ghettos resulted in civilian casualty.

We cannot expect Suzaku to know these things unless he was present at the incident.

If we ignore that you are letting your own personal opinions of Suzaku influence your comment, we cannot hold Suzaku accountable for the deaths of civilians. How can you honestly be even sure that the Brittanian government kill citizens just for the hell of it (I wouldn't doubt the possibility that some Britannians would, but a dead person does not work)? If the Britannian government was outright killing civilians, they would not provide allowances to defeated nations such as allowing Elevens any freedoms whatsoever.

[blitz1/2]

Originally Posted by DarkLordOfkichiku

Hey, I was never (and still isn't) a Suzaku fan to begin with either, but I don't go around insulting/bashing him just because I don't like him either .



Meh, as things stand now, Suzaku and Lelouch are both candidates for that

sorry, yea, I shouldn't. It's just I am fed up with the other Suzaku bashers so I decide to take out my fury on another character.

well

psycho = win

[demon_god04]

Originally Posted by Juvyniled

Area 11 does not fare any better without Suzaku's presence in the Britannian army. Suzaku is likely to face racism, but he still maintains influence. Not many a member of Britannian society would likely have considered addressing Eleven plight, nor would any other individual have been able to push such an issue. It's true that it was not of his own action, but Suzaku instigated such feelings into Euphemia, who translated it into action. Ineffective or otherwise, an idea was acted upon. Now, many argue that there were ulterior motives by higher ranking Britannians, but consider this: allowing such a leeway to those considered inferior would only undermine Britannian authority. Britannians who believe they are superior would likely view such action first and foremost as a sign of weakness (arguably pity, but Britannia promotes the idea of survival of the strongest and such action would only serve to continue the existence of inferior beings).

Area does not fare any better with Suzaku's presence either. Euphie did not get the the urge to help people because of Suzaku, that is just the way she is. She found Lelouch again, and wanted to create the SAZ to help him and Nunally and the Japanese. If anything, Suzaku was the one that was changed by Euphie considering that he had wanted to just die looking like a martyr to ease his guilt. Euphie acted on her own desires, not Suzaku's.

The Britannians allowed the SAZ only after Euphie had to give up her title and claim to the throne. And even then only in the a tiny area, and really more then undermining Britannian authority, the SAZ insinuates that the Numbers cannot adapt and merge into Britannian society unless "quarantined" in a reserve. It underminds Suzaku's idea of changing the system so Numbers and Britannians could be treated equally, not just in a small area.

[ZeroSama]

Was it ever explained why Nunnally didn't have to pay a price to revive the SAZ like Euphie? Was Wakamoto just playing favourites or did he just not care.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by ZeroSama

Was it ever explained why Nunnally didn't have to pay a price to revive the SAZ like Euphie? Was Wakamoto just playing favourites or did he just not care.

Britannia is in much more turmoil in R2. They probably let it happen this time because they are afraid of a full-blown revolt that they can't afford, as there is now a very real danger of being invaded by Anti-Britannian coalition forces. Zero is changing the political landscape.

[ZeroSama]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Britannia is in much more turmoil in R2. They probably let it happen this time because they are afraid of a full-blown revolt that they can't afford, as there is now a very real danger of being invaded by Anti-Britannian coalition forces. Zero is changing the political landscape.

The Emperor does not seem like the type of person to just let something happen though unless it's for his own amusement(Schenziel). Plus at the time the OotBK was on there last legs. They had all of 1 KMF and a sub, thats some resources.

And so what if the 11's rebel. Just go Euphie on them and leave none alive. Then they won't have to worry about any further uprising's(in area 11 anyway) and presnt a stern warning to the other area's.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by ZeroSama

The Emperor does not seem like the type of person to just let something happen though unless it's for his own amusement(Schenziel). Plus at the time the OotBK was on there last legs. They had all of 1 KMF and a sub, thats some resources.

And so what if the 11's rebel. Just go Euphie on them and leave none alive. Then they won't have to worry about any further uprising's(in area 11 anyway) and presnt a stern warning to the other area's.

Someone has to mine the Sakuradite to support the war effort. Any mess in Area 11 could hamper supply of Sakuradite, which could be a signal for anti-Britannian forces to attack.