Why the American industry is useless and fansubbing is low scale damage

[SirCanealot]

Originally Posted by khryoleoz

I'm on this camp, but it has to be physical media and I'm hoping things would eventually lean towards Blu-Ray.

And offer the blu-rays at a sensible price.

Blu-rays right now are still waaaay too expensive. £20+ for a film? No way, guys. No thanks. With prices like that, I'll download a HD rip. As I said, media companies need to COMPETE with pirates. If blurays were £5, could I really be bothered to download?

[Daiz]

Originally Posted by khryoleoz

If the Internet streaming/downloads is the direction in which distribution will go, the companies at the very least MUST distribute titles on Blu-Ray if on a special order basis, maintaing a low cost by what should be far greater revenue earned in distribution over the internet. If the revenue is so small that delivering content in Blu-Ray becomes cost prohibitive to the consumer, then Internet downloads/streaming can die all together.

I see no reason why the industry couldn't lean towards both as you could release 0-day subs for shows that are airing and then Blu-rays later with even better quality, just like it works with TV airing and DVD releases at the moment.

[khryoleoz]

The prices inevitably get cheaper with increasing numbers of people flocking to the format over DVD. So the sooner that people are convinced that their DVDs are so last century and that Blu-Ray is the present, the better for us adopters of this format.

COMPETE with pirates or hire them, my gut feeling is that between legitimate paid-for downloads and the pirates that will still rip them and offer them for free for the heck of it, the average (or smart) downloader would get the bootleg over the legit. So companies need not make any business considerations accommodating this illegitimate consumer base as it is a "market" they would not have reached in the first place regardless.

I'm simply saying that if revenue from downloads is a crucial factor to the distribution of physical media and the revenue generated shows to be poor so that one or the other must go, well what absolutely must go are the downloads, which avenue there already exist facilitators courtesy of fansubbers.

[Avatar_notADV]

Saw the quote of Amray, and went, "uh... wait... I haven't DONE THAT YET." The pirates are getting damned good if they're pirating my work before I do it! ;p

One point... nobody needs to hire fansubbers "because they know how to do it faster". The problems with speed aren't technical in the sense of people not knowing how to get the job done; they're business/legal in getting permission to do that job (and dealing with the business end of the same.) That's not to say that fansubbers don't know how to do subtitles - I'm unusual in being a subtitler who -wasn't- a fansubber, for that matter - just that the problems slowing things down are ones you can't solve by changing the people working on them.

[Sitoduy]

Originally Posted by Toua

The "Japs" have tried doing it themselves, but failed miserably as companies on more than one occasion. Toei, Bandai Visual USA ring any bells?

And what's this about the American industry being useless? If licensing brings in more money, why not? The icing on the cake argument is also pulled out from nowhere. Figure licences must be icing as well, how about telecard licences, event tickets? Individually, they are all marginal costs in comparison to anime DVD sales, so why think R1 licensing is the icing? Production costs for Bamboo Blade were $130000 per episode, so if an R1 DVD sells 2000 copies per DVD, that makes it 1-5% of production costs (probably a lot more for some other titles). Every bit helps.

Although I agree, the R2 industry as a whole is not hurting enough for them (the R2 land) to be whining, as they have 41 TV shows lined up for Fall 2008 season already, they're expecting 50 titles total (an increase from last year's 37).

But why would they cut out a middleman who brings in money? Because a few pirates aren't happy that they have legal rights to distribute the show? Why are you so concerned about what the industry does if you choose to ignore it?

tl;dr: Americans know how to sell anime in America better than the Japanese.

EDIT: I forgot to add an important fact: The R2 industry used to make a lot more money on the R1 land, but now that upfront licensing fees are gone due to various factors, including negative effects of fansubbing, they make a lot less, and by that I mean $10,000+ per episode less.

By the time Bamboo Blade is licensed and fully released in R1 format, the company would've moved on. But if the Japs did it themselves, I'm sure both sides will be happy. I'm not trying to disagree with the fact every bit helps, but there are more effective ways than others.

From one of the latest ANN fansubbing conference things, I think I was pretty sure that I heard the industry whining how there are less new shows or something along that line.

I suppose you wouldn't mind waiting for a series you like to be released in R1 format in like what, years? Or maybe, never?

For godsakes, employ Americans then.

Slow is still slow and ineffective, as of now.

Originally Posted by DryFire

You realize some of the american companies are just extensions of their Japanese counterparts?

People will always bitch and moan when they loose money. Can we not branch this discussion into multiple threads?

Yeah, I do. But there are ones that are not. I'm just saying they should drop the useless and slow licensing model and use a more effective way.

[Seditary]

What's up with the multicolour rainbow?

Don't need annoying things like that to direct answers.

[cyth]

Ooh, colors. *_*

Originally Posted by Sitoduy

By the time Bamboo Blade is licensed and fully released in R1 format, the company would've moved on. But if the Japs did it themselves, I'm sure both sides will be happy. I'm not trying to disagree with the fact every bit helps, but there are more effective ways than others.

What we're seeing is a tug war between the R1 and R2 land. R2 land isn't convinced that 0-day worldwide subs are a good deal, R1 land (FUNimation) wants those rights because they know that's the only way they're going to reclaim a part of their market. R2 land also fears reverse importation of Blu-ray goods. So whatever effective way you're trying to sell, you'll have to sell it to the Japanese. Saying the American industry is useless is far-fetched and stupid.

From one of the latest ANN fansubbing conference things, I think I was pretty sure that I heard the industry whining how there are less new shows or something along that line.

Well, that apparently isn't true, is it? Some people even think the high number of productions is just an overinflated balloon that needs to let out some air. R2 industry is doing badly in other ways, for example they have to export part of production to neighboring countries, even though domestic animators get paid shit already.

I suppose you wouldn't mind waiting for a series you like to be released in R1 format in like what, years? Or maybe, never
[...]
For godsakes, employ Americans then.

Of course I wouldn't mind, we have fansubs and raws, and I buy R2 DVDs most of the time. There's also no guarantee that I'd be able to watch 0-day-subbed anime. I watch fansubs, I buy anime media and merchandise; my conscience is clear. But you're asking someone who rather sees the industry do better than see a small subset of whiny hardcore anime fandom get what it wants on the industry's tab.

My version of the ultimate answer to life, the universe, and everything is for the Japanese to change the way they produce anime. They need to let licensees see the product before they decide to air it and then give them rights and materials for 0-day subs and simultaneous BD/DVD releases. In my opinion, this would work much better than the Japanese doing online distribution by themselves, which would only alienate R1 companies, their expertise, and talent (dub production etc.).

Slow is still slow and ineffective, as of now.

Slow... yes, ineffective... no.

[sorrow13]

ZzZzzZzzzzZzzz .... uh ... huh ? i wasn't sleeping , trust me

[bbduece]

If it is not lucrative enough, resources are not going to be directed at it!!! This is how the world works, many people have this "blah blah blah" about how things shouldnt be about money but you know what, things are about money. Companies need good money and incentives to create all these great animes that we have access to via the internet and imports.

Although anime has been steadily growing in region1 it is not big enough (for example Hollywood) for companies to hire million dollar actors to voice the roles. Being a seiyu in Japan is very prestigious but they are not reconize here for thier hard work thus the talent is not going to be prevailent.

Some companies do not have the resource to make sure thier products can get alsolute quality in other regions where the anime/manga will be release. Some of the creator are not that apt with other cultures and language and can not define what will be quality or what will be crap. They simply don't know if it will sound convincing in another language.

Sometimes the licencing issue is lagged because they do not want thier prize work to be poorly translated and will pour in more resources to make sure it will meet a certain expectation.

So many variables.

I can careless about the distribution although i would be thrill for others to enjoy anime as i have.

I LOVE SUBS!!!!!

[Sitoduy]

Originally Posted by Seditary

What's up with the multicolour rainbow?

Don't need annoying things like that to direct answers.

It's my way of replying. If you have problems with it, keep it to yourself.

Originally Posted by Toua

Ooh, colors. *_*

What we're seeing is a tug war between the R1 and R2 land. R2 land isn't convinced that 0-day worldwide subs are a good deal, R1 land (FUNimation) wants those rights because they know that's the only way they're going to reclaim a part of their market. R2 land also fears reverse importation of Blu-ray goods. So whatever effective way you're trying to sell, you'll have to sell it to the Japanese. Saying the American industry is useless is far-fetched and stupid.

Well, that apparently isn't true, is it? Some people even think the high number of productions is just an overinflated balloon that needs to let out some air. R2 industry is doing badly in other ways, for example they have to export part of production to neighboring countries, even though domestic animators get paid shit already.

Of course I wouldn't mind, we have fansubs and raws, and I buy R2 DVDs most of the time. There's also no guarantee that I'd be able to watch 0-day-subbed anime. I watch fansubs, I buy anime media and merchandise; my conscience is clear.

But you're asking someone who rather sees the industry do better than see a small subset of whiny hardcore anime fandom get what it wants on the industry's tab.

My version of the ultimate answer to life, the universe, and everything is for the Japanese to change the way they produce anime. They need to let licensees see the product before they decide to air it and then give them rights and materials for 0-day subs and simultaneous BD/DVD releases. In my opinion, this would work much better than the Japanese doing online distribution by themselves, which would only alienate R1 companies, their expertise, and talent (dub production etc.).

Slow... yes, ineffective... no.

That's why we need to bring out the message that there is a market for zero day subs. Also, I do not see why whining is not stupid.

Yes, I know it isn't true. lol FACTS

Wait, what? Please go look how many people stream anime. It is definitely not what you call a 'small subset of whiny hardcore anime fandom' ಠ_ಠ

No, doing it themselves will be faster and more efficient. e.g. TITLE X HAS BEEN DECIDED TO GET ANIMATED, BUT PLEASE WAIT FOR ANOTHER 6 MONTHS SO WE CAN DISCUSS WITH THE AMERICANS FOR 0-DAY SU- No.

Also, American companies don't license everything they see. -3-

>talent, (dub production)
Hahahahaha, no.

Taking months up to years to license some mainstream anime and release them in R1 format? I think our meanings of effective is different.

Originally Posted by bbduece

If it is not lucrative enough, resources are not going to be directed at it!!! This is how the world works, many people have this "blah blah blah" about how things shouldnt be about money but you know what, things are about money. Companies need good money and incentives to create all these great animes that we have access to via the internet and imports.

Although anime has been steadily growing in region1 it is not big enough (for example Hollywood) for companies to hire million dollar actors to voice the roles. Being a seiyu in Japan is very prestigious but they are not reconize here for thier hard work thus the talent is not going to be prevailent.

Some companies do not have the resource to make sure thier products can get alsolute quality in other regions where the anime/manga will be release. Some of the creator are not that apt with other cultures and language and can not define what will be quality or what will be crap. They simply don't know if it will sound convincing in another language.

Sometimes the licencing issue is lagged because they do not want thier prize work to be poorly translated and will pour in more resources to make sure it will meet a certain expectation.

So many variables.

I can careless about the distribution although i would be thrill for others to enjoy anime as i have.

I LOVE SUBS!!!!!

I think you're missing the point here. I'm trying to point out that online distribution has a bigger market than DVD's, also it will do the viewers good because people who cannot understand Japanese will be allowed to watch the anime they like as soon as possible.

No. Please take a look at GONZO's Strike Witches recently.

[cyth]

Originally Posted by Sitoduy

Wait, what? Please go look how many people stream anime. It is definitely not what you call a 'small subset of whiny hardcore anime fandom'. I think you're missing the point here. I'm trying to point out that online distribution has a bigger market than DVD's.

If online ad business was profitable enough for content distribution, they would all be doing it already, but it's not. That's why the market is leaning towards DTO. You mentioned Strike Witches, which is like $3 per episode. That's money kids aren't willing to pay. Most of them don't even have a credit card or a PayPal account. For niche content such as anime, where sales of physical media and merchandise count, how many people buy anything? Not a whole fucking lot. That's why I said this is a small subset of whiny hardcore anime fandom because only whiners like us care for the option of legal releases, and the industry sees us as not being worthy of their time.
In any case, you're overestimating the current worth of this market. If you care to take a look at one of my previous responses, you'd see I'm all for ad-supported content, but currently the market is undervalued and its customers aren't exactly credible.

Also, American companies don't license everything they see. -3-

I think you're delusional if you're expecting a day when every anime show will be translated for 0-day.

>talent, (dub production)
Hahahahaha, no.

The majority of R1 anime DVD consumers prefer to watch anime dubbed in English. If a show is expected to recoup costs for physical media including dubs, why not? The world doesn't rotate around you.

Taking months up to years to license some mainstream anime and release them in R1 format? I think our meanings of effective is different.

You're thinking in terms of release times and consumer benefit, while I'm thinking industry profits, which is really the only issue for the R2 industry why they don't do what we want them to do.

[Quarkboy]

Originally Posted by DragoonKain3

Hey it's a zero day sub with optional 1080p version, and considering how good Xam'd is, I would be willing to pay for it. But alas, being outside of US, I can't access it even though I own a PS3. (Which IMO is pretty damn stupid)

One thing though, it would still be better if they released the first episode free, so people knows what kind of shows they're getting into. Also, the quality of the translation needs to be kicked up a few notches as well, as the free to view Gonzo anime over the net had much better subs than Xam'd's, even though Xam'd technically would cost money.

It's only 720 p, actually.

[Quarkboy]

Originally Posted by Toua

@Quarkboy: I used specific content examples such as Penguin Musume and Candy☆Boy because they haven't made it to TV, and to demonstrate just on what revenue streams these shows still rely on (classic revenue streams). If you can buy those World Masterpiece Theater DVDs, you can probably rent them as well. Not much difference between downloading them for a limited time and renting the DVDs. So these services may find new audiences and new money, but I doubt they'll be replacing DVD sales as the primary revenue source anytime soon. After all, anime DVD sales for general audiences haven't seen a decline in 2007 compared to 2006, according to JVA (children's anime have though).

Actually, Penguin Musume did get aired on TV... Well, to behonest, a single special airing which included niconico comments. But it still was aired!

And as for the world masterpiece theater thing: You can't really rent the DVDs either. I've seen heidi of the alps and dog of flanders, but outside of those 2 extremely popular ones the rest are very VERY rare. The DVDs that were produced were made in tiny batches and priced for collectors, and to my knowledge the only things that were ever available for rental were VHS tapes of the shows (and most of those are now sold off in 100 yen bins).
Basically this is the only place to be able to see most of those shows.

As another specific example, Majokko Megu-chan is a classic shoujo series from 1979, and if you search you can find the DVD box sets for sale for nearly $1200 (actually box 1 is only $300 and box 2 which is rare is 800-900).
Tsutaya doesn't rent this title (I checked). Neither does Dorama, another large rental chain. But the videx site about a year ago started selling download to rent copies of the show for less than 100 per episode.

Video rental stores work a bit different than in the US. For example, the recent blu-ray releases from bandai visual like the cowboy bebop movie/escaflowne movie are NOT available for rent, despite being purchasable. Bandai Visual does not allow their anime blu-rays to be rented until they've been on the market for at least 6 months or so, if ever. Stores cannot rent discs without purchasing the rights to do so from Bandai, and they can refuse to sell them. Actually I checked Tsutaya recently and the only anime blu-ray that is rentable at the moment seems to be Brave Story and Papo, the first two anime blu-rays that were released almost a year ago.

[houkoholic]

Originally Posted by bbduece

Being a seiyu in Japan is very prestigious....

It's not. Just because they have a little niche sector carved out for the idol seiyuu, being a seiyuu in Japan is far from prestigious. Majority of the seiyuu works multiple jobs just to keep food on the table. In fact, professional voice actors (NOT famous Hollywood actors) in the states gets paid better than seiyuu in Japan in general.

The anime industry is small and they don't make that much money. This is a fact.

[DragoonKain3]

Originally Posted by Quarkboy

It's only 720 p, actually.

I was under the impression that a 1080p version is also available, accroding to http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...&postcount=188

It's 3.99 USD for a HD rental at 1080p

It's just that 1080p is just too damn big and not too many comps can play it, that it isn't really popular because of those. But hey, maybe I'm wrong, and this is getting OT so I concede. XD

[cyth]

For that same Bamboo Blade production, it was stated that seiyuu get up to 60,000 yen allocated per episode, and in the end they only get a third of it (management company gets a third etc.). That's really not a whole lot, especially if you don't play the protagonist. <_<;

[houkoholic]

Originally Posted by Toua

For that same Bamboo Blade production, it was stated that seiyuu get up to 60,000 yen allocated per episode, and in the end they only get a third of it (management company gets a third etc.). That's really not a whole lot, especially if you don't play the protagonist. <_<;

FWIW, 10-20k yen is pretty much the norm, 60,000yen is your ultra-hot-property-veteran price. Also to put it into perspective this is US$100-200 with the current exchange rate, and only because the yen is strong against the dollar right now, this time last year it would make it more like US$80-160, then you lose half of that to management and you get about 50 bucks realistically for sometimes a full day's worth of work. It's a minimium wage job, heck you can earn more flipping burgers or something.

At least they're not as badly paid as the animators, but that's really not something nice to be said of the industry.

[Quarkboy]

Originally Posted by DragoonKain3

I was under the impression that a 1080p version is also available, accroding to http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...&postcount=188


It's just that 1080p is just too damn big and not too many comps can play it, that it isn't really popular because of those. But hey, maybe I'm wrong, and this is getting OT so I concede. XD

Yeah, the thing was it was advertised as 1080p but the actual file is 720p according to reports I heard.

I haven't bought it myself yet as it hasn't come out in Japan yet, so I'm only going on what I've read from others. (And if there was a 1080p version out there I'm sure we would have seen 1080p rips going around by now ).

[Mushi]

Originally Posted by houkoholic

FWIW, 10-20k yen is pretty much the norm, 60,000yen is your ultra-hot-property-veteran price. Also to put it into perspective this is US$100-200 with the current exchange rate, and only because the yen is strong against the dollar right now, this time last year it would make it more like US$80-160, then you lose half of that to management and you get about 50 bucks realistically for sometimes a full day's worth of work. It's a minimium wage job, heck you can earn more flipping burgers or something.

At least they're not as badly paid as the animators, but that's really not something nice to be said of the industry.

Interesting. I knew seiyuu were low on the entertainment ladder, but that's kinda' sad. Sounds like it's a labor of love. All the more reason to be grateful for the work they do.

[Ithekro]

About the only difference seems to be that seiyuu get noticed for their work more often than American voice actors. But that may just be a preceptional thing on my part.