Why is Orochimaru still so powerful?

[james0246]

Originally Posted by ShadowAssasin

Tsunade and her entourage still had the advantage for a few reasons (aside from obviously being outnumbered):

1. Jiraiya's watered down jutsus are still better than not being able to use jutsu at all (Oro).
2. naruto still posed a threat because he could potentially call upon the kyuubi's power, and he was able to pull off the rasengan that severely injured Kabuto.
3. I can't believe you're trying to downplay shizune's potential saying she got "smacked around" by Tsunade... She was relatively fresh and ready for a long, hard battle.

As a slight defense of Orochimaru's abilities:

Just as a short rebuttal, Orochimaru and Kabuto would have never stuck around if they thought that they would be defeated (and as evidenced by how fast they ran once Tsunade "woke-up", they knew when to leave Dodge). Specifically, Orochimaru felt that even with his weakness he could still stack up against a fit Shizune, a drugged Jiraiya (who was neutered of his higher-end techniques (which is all he really uses)), a significantly out-of-shape and psychologically impaired Tsunade, and a brat who he easily dealt with in the Forrest of Death (Naruto). So, in reality, because Orochimaru fought at all, he probably felt as if the odds were stacked in his favor, even with his "slight" disability (or at least he felt that the fight was even enough that it could be won).

It should be noted, though, that as soon as Tsunade got her act together, Orochimaru threw out Manda and ran as fast as he could.

Originally Posted by ShadowAssasin

You're not giving Oro and Kabuto enough credit: Tsunade even suggested that Kabuto's senses and strength may have even exeeded her own in her prime.

I do not want to get in to yet another "Tsunade-can-do-something" argument, but, just as an aside, Tsunade said this about Kabuto's Healing abilities and general sense of his abilities as a medic-nin, not as a comparison against her own "super strength" or other such abilities.

[ShadowAssasin]

Originally Posted by james0246

(and as evidenced by how fast they ran once Tsunade "woke-up", they knew when to leave Dodge).

Actually, when Tsunade “woke-up”, she was immediately mauled by the sword of kusanagi; and Orochimaru didn’t “run” or “skip dodge” he simply jumped back for Kabuto to summon manda because Tsunade began to summon her beast immediately after she healed herself.

Originally Posted by james0246

Specifically, Orochimaru felt that even with his weakness he could still stack up against a fit Shizune, a drugged Jiraiya (who was neutered of his higher-end techniques (which is all he really uses)), a significantly out-of-shape and psychologically impaired Tsunade, and a brat who he easily dealt with in the Forrest of Death (Naruto).

lol, Tsunade didn’t look that much out of shape to me, but the landscape sure did… And, I’m not sure why it matters what Orochimaru or Kabuto thought ; the fact is that they did not have a clear advantage: that “out of shape” Tsunade was still keeping both of them on their toes, Shizune was able to give Kabuto a run for his money, the “brat” severely injured a high level ninja, and that drugged Jiraiya? He was still able to incapacitate Orochimaru’s summoned snakes and keep him busy.

(it should also be noted that kabuto was previously concerned about Tsunade’s accomplice and was even more impressed by her later on. He also kept warning Orochimaru about her, so she was no “pushover”)

Originally Posted by james0246

So, in reality, because Orochimaru fought at all, he probably felt as if the odds were stacked in his favor, even with his "slight" disability (or at least he felt that the fight was even enough that it could be won).

It doesn’t matter what he might have thought ; didn’t Sasuke think he was a match for the 8-tailed jinchuriki when he charged in the way he did? If Oro thought he was at an advantage, it’s because he simply considers himself superior (which is evident if you read Oro and Jiraiya’s conversation); this was not because of any handicap -which wasn’t even immediately known to begin with.

You should recall that when Jiraiya, naruto, and shizune first appeared, Jiraiya’s condition was not yet known to Orochimaru – and yet he had an anxious smile on his face and simply stated “Jiraiya… Long time no see”; note that he did not attempt to escape – he prepared for the "unexpected guests" by summoning a pair of snakes. In fact, when Jiraiya failed to properly summon, Orochimaru originally thought it was just another one of Jiraiya’s blunders, as he stated “Your stupidity still hasn’t been cured Jiraiya”, and “I don’t think there’s anyone less talented that you.” It was Kabuto that suggested he was probably drugged.

Also, I wouldn’t consider not being able to use any jutsus as a slight disability. His paralyzed arms weren’t his only disadvantage either – upon their first meeting, Tsunade immediately noticed his “feverish face” and that he endured “a long period of exhaustion.”

Originally Posted by james0246

It should be noted, though, that as soon as Tsunade got her act together, Orochimaru threw out Manda and ran as fast as he could.

It was actually Tsunade that first initiated a summon when she “got her act together.” lol, and Orochimaru didn’t run anywhere until the very end, where are you getting this from? With Kabuto’s help, they summoned manda (with Oro grinning as usual) and stayed for the fight… Where did he run? You know James, I wouldn’t expect you of all people to be twisting the facts around like this…

Originally Posted by james0246

I do not want to get in to yet another "Tsunade-can-do-something" argument, but, just as an aside, Tsunade said this about Kabuto's Healing abilities and general sense of his abilities as a medic-nin, not as a comparison against her own "super strength" or other such abilities.

lol, she specifically stated that he wasn’t some “ordinary medical ninja” and commented on his strength and senses. The word “strength” in this context is apparently being used to describe his overall prowess as a shinobi. (We should recall that Kakashi was also impressed with his abilities and had similar comments regarding his prowess)

[james0246]

LOL, Who would have thought that me defending a charcater that you like, would have resulted in such a "battle".

Originally Posted by ShadowAssasin

Actually, when Tsunade “woke-up”, she was immediately mauled by the sword of kusanagi; and Orochimaru didn’t “run” or “skip dodge” he simply jumped back for Kabuto to summon manda because Tsunade began to summon her beast immediately after she healed herself.

Well, if you want to say that Tsunade "woke-up" at this instance, I will not disagree. Whether she "woke-up" when she performed Genesis Rebirth, or when she took the sword through the heart, is ultimately a moot point. The fact is that she "woke-up" and started fighting full force for only two-three actual moves. Her summoning, which led to everyone summoning, and her one punch to Orochimaru, which forced him to realize that he could not win the fight, so he fled.

Originally Posted by ShadowAssasin

lol, Tsunade didn’t look that much out of shape to me, but the landscape sure did… And, I’m not sure why it matters what Orochimaru or Kabuto thought ; the fact is that they did not have a clear advantage: that “out of shape” Tsunade was still keeping both of them on their toes, Shizune was able to give Kabuto a run for his money, the “brat” severely injured a high level ninja, and that drugged Jiraiya? He was still able to incapacitate Orochimaru’s summoned snakes and keep him busy.

(it should also be noted that kabuto was previously concerned about Tsunade’s accomplice and was even more impressed by her later on. He also kept warning Orochimaru about her, so she was no “pushover”)

I am not fully disagreeing or agreeing with your here, considering the fact that I was actually defending Orochimaru in my original post. Orochimaru chose to fight her instead of leaving. He also chooses to fight Jiraiya, Shizune, and Naruto (as we saw when he fled, nothing they had would have stopped him if he wanted to leave). So, obviously his understanding of their abilities, as well as his abilities is a factor in questioning and speculating about their fight. To think otherwise is to literally dismiss all realm of tactical thought in any fight in the series. So, of course an injured opponent deciding to fight when they do not need to is an important consideration we have to make in regards to this fight.

As to the rest of the comments here, Naruto is the traditionally underdog in these fights, so of course Kabuto, when he acted derisively and arrogantly, thinking that Naruto had nothing but the Kyuubi, received his comuppins (Naruto at this point in time is 3/4 luck and 1/4 power and skill mixed in to the equation). It could even be said that Orochimaru did the same thing with Jiraiya (the arrogant part, not the comuppins).

As to Shizune...do I really need to say anything about Shizune? She is just another almost random female Nin that can do next to nothing in the face of her male aggressor (okay that language may be a little heavy handed, but since she was taken care of in about 2 moves (disabling her feet, and then one goof blow to her torso), I generally just ignore her). That being said, at the start of the group fight, after Kabuto had "knocked" Tsunade out, he (using basic tactical knowledge) considered Shizune to be the most dangerous specifically because she, like him (more or less), was the only fully able nin on the battle field. Once he took care of her, he could easily move on to the crippled Tsunade and the fool Naruto, only, as we saw, that did not work out for him that well .

As to Tsunade, considering how fast Tsunade fell after seeing Kabuto's blood, that should tell you how impaired she was (added to that is her record of being a non-Shinobi for about a decade, so that should count for something). But, I fully admit that if Kabuto had not known of her disability (or if she did not have it) she would have probably defeated him.

Originally Posted by ShadowAssasin

It doesn’t matter what he might have thought ; didn’t Sasuke think he was a match for the 8-tailed jinchuriki when he charged in the way he did? If Oro thought he was at an advantage, it’s because he simply considers himself superior (which is evident if you read Oro and Jiraiya’s conversation); this was not because of any handicap -which wasn’t even immediately known to begin with.

You should recall that when Jiraiya, naruto, and shizune first appeared, Jiraiya’s condition was not yet known to Orochimaru – and yet he had an anxious smile on his face and simply stated “Jiraiya… Long time no see”; note that he did not attempt to escape – he prepared for the "unexpected guests" by summoning a pair of snakes. In fact, when Jiraiya failed to properly summon, Orochimaru originally thought it was just another one of Jiraiya’s blunders, as he stated “Your stupidity still hasn’t been cured Jiraiya”, and “I don’t think there’s anyone less talented that you.” It was Kabuto that suggested he was probably drugged.

Again, why are you disregarding what the characters thought? He could have left the battlefield at any given moment, and in the end that is exactly what he did. You are also forgetting the sole reason for this fight, and ultimately the reason why Orochimaru continued to stay even when it seemed that the odds started to get stacked against him: he needed Tsunade's knowledge to heal his hands. His decisions and actions (as we see several times in the fight, Orochimaru is visibly sweating, so he is obviously weigthing his options and determining the best course of action he can take) are influenced by his need for Tsunade, but the fact that he decides to keep fighting (until they all summon) seems solely due to the fact that he thought he could win or at least capture Tsunade and retreat.

In starting a fight, unless you are a complete idiot like Part I-Naruto, you always consider your own abilities as well as your opponent’s abilities. Shikimaru does this in almost every fight. To not think at all about the abilities of others is complete stupidity, and if there is one thing we can say about Orochimaru, he is not an idiot. Though, I fully admit that his arrogance may have led him to believe that he and Kabuto could definitely take care of all the opponents, that still does not disregard the importance concerning the speculation of his thought processes or how those thoughts influenced the fight (like your comparison between Sasuke and HJ, Sasuke foolishly entered a fight without gaining the proper Intel he needed to win, Orochimaru had most of the proper Intel (he knew of Tsunade weakness and when he learned of Jiraiya's disability, he stayed and fought instead of running by hiding behind his summons, which is arguably what he did with Manda), but he could not foresee Naruto and his impact on the fight (which was kind of Naruto's entire MO in Part I)).

Originally Posted by ShadowAssasin

Also, I wouldn’t consider not being able to use any jutsus as a slight disability. His paralyzed arms weren’t his only disadvantage either – upon their first meeting, Tsunade immediately noticed his “feverish face” and that he endured “a long period of exhaustion.”

It was not my intention to belittle Orochimaru's injuries. Rather, it was my intention to show that Orochimaru, despite these seemingly disabilitating injuries, still choose to fight even though, as we see, he could escape quite easily. Added to that, as we saw in the fight, Orochimaru without arms is still amazingly powerful (joke: more powerful than he was in Part II against Sasuke ). So, knowing his abilities and his limits he made the conscious decision to engage in battle rather than flee (I am sorry that I keep repeating this fact, but it extraordinarily important).

Originally Posted by ShadowAssasin

It was actually Tsunade that first initiated a summon when she “got her act together.” lol, and Orochimaru didn’t run anywhere until the very end, where are you getting this from? With Kabuto’s help, they summoned manda (with Oro grinning as usual) and stayed for the fight… Where did he run? You know James, I wouldn’t expect you of all people to be twisting the facts around like this…

It is not twisting facts. Tsunade only did 2 or 3 moves in the fight (after she "woke-up"), each one more devastating than the last, which eventually forced Orochimaru to re-evaluate the fight and choose to leave (when your summon's head is pierced by a giant sword, and you have received a near mortal injury from one strike, that is generally the time to run ). There is no "revision" of the facts here, simply an objective look at the all aspects of the fight, showcasing Orochimaru's decisions during various stages of the battle. Yes Orochimaru choose to summon to try and win the fight (remember he needed her knowledge to heal his hands, so of course he is going to stay as long as he needed to try and accomplish his goals), but once Tsunade thoroughly kicked Manda's ass, he re-evaluated the situation and decided to retreat (if he can make such a wise tactical decision even when he knows that he will not be able to "survive" without her, that must mean that before this point in time he truly thought that he could capture her).

Originally Posted by ShadowAssasin

lol, she specifically stated that he wasn’t some “ordinary medical ninja” and commented on his strength and senses. The word “strength” in this context is apparently being used to describe his overall prowess as a shinobi. (We should recall that Kakashi was also impressed with his abilities and had similar comments regarding his prowess)

I am not disagreeing with this. In fact I am agreeing with your statement here. But, you are equating Kabuto's ability and knowledge of medical Ninjutsu and his chakra scalpels, to actual strength as a Shinobi when the context of the quote (the fact that he struck a singular muscle group that made fighting significantly more difficult) seems more to cover his precise abilities as a medic-nin. He was and is an amazing medic-nin, possibly better than Tsunade in her prime, and, as she says, “not an ordinary Nin”. So, he is "strong".

---

As an aside, this fight is a perfect opportunity to showcase Orochimaru's tactical mind as well as his basic abilities in fighting. Orochimaru is a genius, and the fact that he could fight and almost win against such foes is damn impressive. This is Orochimaru's swan song moment in the series (unless you believe that the 4 tails battle is his swan song), and he, unlike the other two Sannin in this fight, more than lives up to his reputation (it would be 200 some chapters until Jiraiya 'reclaimed' his honour as a Legendary Sannin, and Tsunade, sadly enough, still has not regained her honour.)

[holypanl]

Originally Posted by Hideki Keiji

Actually it's more like:
Oro(A sannin without jutsus) and Kabuto (elite jounin level)

vs.

Jiraiya (a sannin with jutsus that dont work like they should and a partially paralyzed body), Tsunade(a sannin with a phobia that completely immobolizes her), Shizune (a regular jounin), and Naruto(a inexperienced genin with the chakra of a jounin and a few good jutsus(but bad chakra control)).
Sure, it's two vs. four, but it's still pretty fair, IMO.

Now you say "Tsunade(a sannin with a phobia that completely immobolizes her)"...

But that doesn't excuse her... it jst means that sh'es Completely unfit to be a shinobi.

And I really don't like the fact that sh'es Hokage either. She's pathetically weak. Just like her crappy student, Sakura. Anyone else notice that Chiyo was going to do just fine without Sakura, since Chiyo actually didn't win, in the end, because of her own power, but Sasori's reluctance to attack his parent's puppets?

Sakura mde no contribution to Chiyo's fight. Yeah that's damn right. Chiyo's fight.

I think it was such an insult to a cool, major, POWERFUL villain like Sasori to even have such a pathetic weakling like Sakura around to even witness his death.

really...god...Sakura and her lame granny are weak...

[Sunater]

Common people... The fight with the sannins was not near "fair"...Give it a rest..

Orochimaru technically won the fight leaving 3 ribs and a leg damaged Jiraya and technically 'killed' Tsunade...


I'm not degrading them by any means, just the obvious fact lies there.. No more damage was done to Orochimaru, while the other to had been near death several times..

[OtseisRagnarok]

Originally Posted by Sunater

Common people... The fight with the sannins was not near "fair"...Give it a rest..

Orochimaru technically won the fight leaving 3 ribs and a leg damaged Jiraya and technically 'killed' Tsunade...


I'm not degrading them by any means, just the obvious fact lies there.. No more damage was done to Orochimaru, while the other to had been near death several times..

This is all very true, but the fact remains, if Orochimaru had to continue the fight, he would've lost. Hence why he left.