Discussion on equal trade...

[dragonz20]

Something has been bothering me. The whole theory behind Alchemy is equal trade, basically you must provide something of equal value to get something back in return.

What I don't understand is what exactly is being traded to provide the change.

example: in the very first episode, they broke a clock and Al creates a circle and fixes it. All the parts were right there so material-wise, it's an equal trade. But let's analyze the trade real quickly here. They traded in a broken clock (little/no monetary value and no usefulness) for a working clock (some monetary value and it's useful ~ tells time). This is obviously not a trade of equal value.

And this is shown time and time again. They create new stuff that is very useful (at the time) out of raw materials of less worth but where does the creativity and equal trading occur?
Maybe Iam being too nitpicky but what do all of you think?

[Palani]

The trade has to do with mass and elements. As long as the object that you provide has
the right mass and the correct elements you can transmutate in something of the same
mass and containing the same elements. That is how the equal trade works in the show.

I hope this cleared something up for you.

[dragonz20]

Originally Posted by Palani

The trade has to do with mass and elements. As long as the object that you provide has
the right mass and the correct elements you can transmutate in something of the same
mass and containing the same elements. That is how the equal trade works in the show.

I hope this cleared something up for you.

Yes but I am saying that is still not equal trade. Not in real life and not in theory either. Material-wise, everything they do is equal trade. But if it was that simple, then human transmutation would be easily achieveable. And that's what I am getting at. The whole reason they can't transmute humans is there is nothing that can equate to a person's soul.

So if we are to believe that all alchemy requires something as intanglible as a soul, there there must to some degree, some soul in all other objects. For example, when Ed or Al create a statue out of nothing. Te statue is an art in itself and thus an extension of the 'soul' of the artist. So is Al and Edward so versatile (at their age) that then can draw, erect statues of of impeccable perfection and the alchemy just facilitates their ability? What about that clock? Do they know everything about that clock and thus they were capable of fixing it? If that clock was built by someone, then someone must have put some small degree of effort and work into it. And that is the missing element I am talking about. The "work" to achieve the desired result isn't provided in the equation of equal trade in the anime...

[Yebyosh]

Originally Posted by dragonz20

Something has been bothering me. The whole theory behind Alchemy is equal trade, basically you must provide something of equal value to get something back in return.

What I don't understand is what exactly is being traded to provide the change.

example: in the very first episode, they broke a clock and Al creates a circle and fixes it. All the parts were right there so material-wise, it's an equal trade. But let's analyze the trade real quickly here. They traded in a broken clock (little/no monetary value and no usefulness) for a working clock (some monetary value and it's useful ~ tells time). This is obviously not a trade of equal value.

And this is shown time and time again. They create new stuff that is very useful (at the time) out of raw materials of less worth but where does the creativity and equal trading occur?
Maybe Iam being too nitpicky but what do all of you think?

Well... I think one thing you forgot is energy. In this case, the energy is drawn from the alchemist him/herself. After the accounting of basic material trade components requirements, the alchemist would probably have to makeup the value shortfall required with his own energy. It is similar to our current law of thermodynamics. Hence the more complex (i.e. higher value of new state than old state) the alchemy, the more energy required.

This is somewhat illustrated in Ep 6 where Ed qualified as a National Alchemist. Remember there was the first fella who made an ugly obelisk from the ground. He was practically exhausted and General Hakuro said that the effort exhausted the fella. The alchemy was way too complex (high in trade) for the fella and drew all his energy to do it.

The Philosopher Stone is supposed to amplify the amount of energy an alchemist channels. Hence it allows him to achieve highly complex (great difference in value) alchemy.

That said, it is not without reason to state that part of the reason that Ed is a powerful alchemist must be that he has boundless energy in him.

Of course how can a human body contain so much energy (realistically you need a supernova's supply of energy to do some of the stuff Ed did) is an anime exaggeration.

Originally Posted by dragonz20

So if we are to believe that all alchemy requires something as intanglible as a soul, there there must to some degree, some soul in all other objects. For example, when Ed or Al create a statue out of nothing. Te statue is an art in itself and thus an extension of the 'soul' of the artist. So is Al and Edward so versatile (at their age) that then can draw, erect statues of of impeccable perfection and the alchemy just facilitates their ability? What about that clock? Do they know everything about that clock and thus they were capable of fixing it? If that clock was built by someone, then someone must have put some small degree of effort and work into it. And that is the missing element I am talking about. The "work" to achieve the desired result isn't provided in the equation of equal trade in the anime...

You forgot that the alchemist has to know the theory of how the creation is able to work. Ed cannot fix his Automail by alchemy by this reason. He simply does not know how the Automail works. While he understands metallurgy and gunpowder, he does not understand neural-synaptic interfaces and the internals of the Automail. A clock or radio is simple to understand for them. Bunch of gears or basic resistor/inductor/capacitors.

[dragonz20]

Originally Posted by Yebyosh

Well... I think one thing you forgot is energy. In this case, the energy is drawn from the alchemist him/herself. After the accounting of basic material trade components requirements, the alchemist would probably have to makeup the value shortfall required with his own energy. It is similar to our current law of thermodynamics. Hence the more complex (i.e. higher value of new state than old state) the alchemy, the more energy required.

This is somewhat illustrated in Ep 6 where Ed qualified as a National Alchemist. Remember there was the first fella who made an ugly obelisk from the ground. He was practically exhausted and General Hakuro said that the effort exhausted the fella. The alchemy was way too complex (high in trade) for the fella and drew all his energy to do it.

The Philosopher Stone is supposed to amplify the amount of energy an alchemist channels. Hence it allows him to achieve highly complex (great difference in value) alchemy.

That said, it is not without reason to state that part of the reason that Ed is a powerful alchemist must be that he has boundless energy in him.

Of course how can a human body contain so much energy (realistically you need a supernova's supply of energy to do some of the stuff Ed did) is an anime exaggeration.

ok I do get this and I guess the energy is something that's missing in this equation.

But still, the required energy expended on a particular task is dependent on the user right? If I was to make a statue of something, it might take me several hundreds of attempts since I've never made a statue thus tons and tons of energy. But an artist who creates statues for a living would be able to create one much more easily and thus expend less physical energy (mental is dependent). So is Al and Eward so talented at everything that they can use alchemy to create/fix anything they want?

edit: yeah i do remember him not knowing how to fix his automail.. you're right on that part. I guess I am just being nitpicky but as an artist myself, I know how much work and effort it takes to create art. I guess the trade in effort isn't very balanced... i am just being nitpicky.

[tektonik]

Your going to run into issues if you try and apply more things from real life science. There is a reason alchemy doesn't work. More specifically a reason you can not get lead to gold(making through a particle accelerator is not cost effective )

However, the amount of science and logic they do have in this series puts it on a new level of interest for me. Kind of like how I enjoyed Gundam Wing just for the theories on war.

[avmoghe]

What has really bothered me is how getting back Al's soul for Ed's limb is an equivalent trade. I don't see how that one works.... a "soul" (whatever that may mean) for an arm or a leg.

[Sparkie]

Originally Posted by avmoghe

What has really bothered me is how getting back Al's soul for Ed's limb is an equivalent trade. I don't see how that one works.... a "soul" (whatever that may mean) for an arm or a leg.

Jep been bothering me too...A soul is so much more worth than a body is my opinion so, why Ed only lost his arm is a riddle for me...

[Akichan]

Originally Posted by Sparkie

Jep been bothering me too...A soul is so much more worth than a body is my opinion so, why Ed only lost his arm is a riddle for me...

Alchemic energy. Edward is VERY powerful, as we've seen. He can do things without a Philosopher's Stone that others can't.

[Pendragon2879]

I might be coming into this conversation a little late, but I think I can understand where your coming from. Like when Ed re-made the inn for the guy he gave the deed to the mines for, I didn't understand how he could do that. If he had never seen the inside of all the rooms, what guranteed that he got the insides right at all? Its like knowing how to do something without ever seeing it or learning it. Like fixing a car and never having seen the engine and getting it right the first time around. But I don't read too much into it. I am satisfied with the fact that if you have all the parts, you can put it back together. Like the other guy said, it is very similar to Gundam Wing. How does all out war lead directly to peace?, kinda getting the same feeling about this. The whole concept of equivalent trade is very interesting to me.

[usbport]

Originally Posted by Pendragon2879

I might be coming into this conversation a little late, but I think I can understand where your coming from. Like when Ed re-made the inn for the guy he gave the deed to the mines for, I didn't understand how he could do that. If he had never seen the inside of all the rooms, what guranteed that he got the insides right at all? Its like knowing how to do something without ever seeing it or learning it. Like fixing a car and never having seen the engine and getting it right the first time around. But I don't read too much into it. I am satisfied with the fact that if you have all the parts, you can put it back together. Like the other guy said, it is very similar to Gundam Wing. How does all out war lead directly to peace?, kinda getting the same feeling about this. The whole concept of equivalent trade is very interesting to me.

I will also address this quote: "You forgot that the alchemist has to know the theory of how the creation is able to work. Ed cannot fix his Automail by alchemy by this reason. He simply does not know how the Automail works. While he understands metallurgy and gunpowder, he does not understand neural-synaptic interfaces and the internals of the Automail. A clock or radio is simple to understand for them. Bunch of gears or basic resistor/inductor/capacitors."

The theory that an Alchemist has to know about how an object works before he can use alchemy to repair/create something is false. A perfect example of this would be where Ed re-made that Inn at the mine. By the theory in the second quote, for Ed to do this, he has to have been a master architect, carpenter, framer, electrician, plumber, etc. for him to have been able to raise the inn back to it's original state... this is a long shot at best.

I believe the answer to these feats have already been hinted at in the show. Ed's teacher discusses a "flow" of things that all objects and life exist within. Using alchemy allows an Alchemist to *alter* this flow. With this said, Ed could use alchemy to alter the flow of things and *undestroy* the inn I mentioned earlier.

Alchemy works by altering the flow of things, not by simply creating from knowledge. All an Alchemist needs to know is what he wants to create. From what has been shown in the series, an Alchemist does not have to know anything (or very little) in order to recreate something as long as he has proper knowledge of how alchemy works.

My last example will be the incident where Al uses an array to repair that radio in the desert city (forgot which ep, very early on though). Now while he must have the equal amount of materials to repair this radio, he does not have to know *anything* about how the radio actually was, how it worked, or how it was constructed. He repairs it by altering the flow of things (fate is a better word) and "undestroys" it.

Equal trade is about having the materials in which to begin the transmutation, however, most people think that Alchemy is *about* equal trade. It is not. Equal trade is mearly a factor in Alchemy. Alchemy is altering the flow of fate to achieve the desired result the alchemist wishes. Thus if there is the potential for something to exist, he can alter the flow of things and bring it about, this is restricted however by the power of the alchemist, the alchemist's knowledge of alchemy, and the available materials at hand for the transmutation.

[tektonik]

When ed remade the inn we are nto sure he remade it exact. The quote form the inn keeper is that it was better than before. So it very well could have been different.

[Tenkoy]

Also, wasn't there the prologue where Al talks about the law of equal trade and how they believed that was the truth of the world when they were young. As in that isn't what they believed later on.

I mean, who honestly believes that Al's soul is only worth Ed's arm. It doesn't make sense. If it were equal trade, wouldn't he logically have to sacrifice his own soul?

(It's been a while since I saw the beginning. So I can't remember if it was his leg or arm that was exchanged for Al)

[usbport]

Originally Posted by Tenkoy

Also, wasn't there the prologue where Al talks about the law of equal trade and how they believed that was the truth of the world when they were young. As in that isn't what they believed later on.

I mean, who honestly believes that Al's soul is only worth Ed's arm. It doesn't make sense. If it were equal trade, wouldn't he logically have to sacrifice his own soul?

(It's been a while since I saw the beginning. So I can't remember if it was his leg or arm that was exchanged for Al)

Ed's leg was taken as a cost for his mother's transmutation along with Al's body.

If you caught up on the latest eps, you'd see that ed didn't offer just one arm to bring back his brother. He painted arrays on both arms his remaining leg, and his heart. Ed offered all this for the equal trade. Though only his right arm was taken...

The Equal Trade law is like a law of physics in our world. It is an absolute... depending how you look at it. Laws can be bent, and there are more often than not loopholes that allow for certain things that shouldn't happen at all.

[tektonik]

I guess I can add that, the trade for his arm was to go to the gate again. He needed to pay another toll and offered everything for his brother's soul but they just took his arm as a toll.

[Tenkoy]

Oh, I see. That does make sense.

Kind of like how a friend may owe me $40, but I only ask for $10. I didn't even consider the other side of the trade may give out a discount.

[usbport]

Originally Posted by Tenkoy

Oh, I see. That does make sense.

Kind of like how a friend may owe me $40, but I only ask for $10. I didn't even consider the other side of the trade may give out a discount.

The Gate was having a coupon special that day, you see. It was a "buy one get the second one half price" deal that you just couldn't beat.

[tektonik]

Originally Posted by Tenkoy

Oh, I see. That does make sense.

Kind of like how a friend may owe me $40, but I only ask for $10. I didn't even consider the other side of the trade may give out a discount.

Yes kinda. If you notice he does make seals all over his body so he was offering his life to bring back his brother. The gate just didn't take it all.

[usbport]

Originally Posted by tektonik

Yes kinda. If you notice he does make seals all over his body so he was offering his life to bring back his brother. The gate just didn't take it all.

My guess is that since Ed wasn't recreating Al's body, the gate didn't need to take Ed's body.

[Isis&Osiris]

Originally Posted by Sparkie

Jep been bothering me too...A soul is so much more worth than a body is my opinion so, why Ed only lost his arm is a riddle for me...

you're referring t othe theroy of soul families. the bond between them is stronger than non-family bonds.

this theory is represented in the book, soul recreation, by robert e. delzer. the explanation is generalized but the gist of it was:

a flame constitutes two souls undivided. once it incarnates, it splits one unit into two (yin /yang symbolism). the bond is called a Twin Flame. as such, twins have a bond that is spiritual, beyond mortal death.

as a possible explanation, Ed and Al are twin flames and the attraction to be together is undeniable. one cannot exist without the other since to become one, they either die together to be united with the flame or incarnate as two living souls.

so that soul transplant he did didn't require a heavy debt unless it was for a soul not in his soul family.

Peace