Character Discussion - Lelouch

[NextTime]

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

WHoa whoa whoa where was it ever stated that the Geass survives so long as the user who gave it lives?

It rewires the brain, that's all it does, once it's done it's done unless the canceller comes in.

It's pretty obvious that you're right. Otherwise Nunnally's geass should have worn off right when Charles died. Ditto for the Knight of One.

[lovecakecookies]

Originally Posted by vision33r

Haha, so you fell for the setup? You don't see CC crying muttering Lelouch's name like he's right there.

Her remarks at the end really solidify my judgement that he's very much alive like Goku and his multiple reincarnations in DBZ.

She spoke about geass and asked for Lelouch's opinion like he is there. We have no idea just how much his power grew with the addition of the 2nd eye of geass.

In any event I could careless whether he lives or not, I think in the end the creators left the option open.

Exactly...the left it open.. if they had not masked the stupid driver there would have been no argument about it.. lol

I heard at the end, when C.C is talking about/to Lulu its past tense right?! can anyone confirm this?

[Kyero Fox]

did anyone find that Lelouch and C.C. are simular too Light and Ryuke from Death Note?

Light - Tryin to make the world a better place with his Death Note
Lelouch - Tryin to make the world a better place with his Geass

C.C. - Helping Lelouch reach his goal and loves Pizza more than everything. and is immortal
Ryuke - Helping Light(Sorta) reach his goal and loves Apples more than anything, and is also immortal

Both Ryuke and C.C. were both seen last with a Mysterious person.

anyone find this oddly simular?

[Kushi]

Originally Posted by Kyero Fox

did anyone find that Lelouch and C.C. are simular too Light and Ryuke from Death Note?

Light - Tryin to make the world a better place with his Death Note
Lelouch - Tryin to make the world a better place with his Geass

C.C. - Helping Lelouch reach his goal and loves Pizza more than everything. and is immortal
Ryuke - Helping Light(Sorta) reach his goal and loves Apples more than anything, and is also immortal

Both Ryuke and C.C. were both seen last with a Mysterious person.

anyone find this oddly simular?

Uhm not really...

Lelouch wanted to make the world a better place for his sister, wanted to make a kind and gentle world, a world were people would help each other instead of discriminating against one another
Light wanted to change the world because he didn't like it, he wanted to use his death note to become god.

C.C helped Lelouch in every single way possible with all her strength.
Ryuke just eat apples and gives us a creepy ass smiles with his ugly ass face...

If we're going to do Death note to CG comparsions... I'll have to say that Schneizel is best compared to Light

And Ryuke, iunno Diethart kind of reminded me of him for some reason...

[vision33r]

Originally Posted by lovecakecookies

Exactly...the left it open.. if they had not masked the stupid driver there would have been no argument about it.. lol

I heard at the end, when C.C is talking about/to Lulu its past tense right?! can anyone confirm this?

The statement CC made at the end was present tense. Clearly she was vaguely chattering to Lelouch and how could anyone not understand what she said..

She clearly said she thought that Geass would make one person lonely but in this case, she's not really "accurate" about her situation..

We can theory about anything but the truth is the end is left open...

[Micante]

Originally Posted by Kyero Fox

did anyone find that Lelouch and C.C. are simular too Light and Ryuke from Death Note?

Light - Tryin to make the world a better place with his Death Note
Lelouch - Tryin to make the world a better place with his Geass

C.C. - Helping Lelouch reach his goal and loves Pizza more than everything. and is immortal
Ryuke - Helping Light(Sorta) reach his goal and loves Apples more than anything, and is also immortal

Both Ryuke and C.C. were both seen last with a Mysterious person.

anyone find this oddly simular?

Wait... Ryuk was last seen with a mysterious person? Damn, don't have the last episode available >_>. Or are you talking about For:Ward?

[Discerptor]

Originally Posted by Kushi

Uhm not really...

Lelouch wanted to make the world a better place for his sister, wanted to make a kind and gentle world, a world were people would help each other instead of discriminating against one another
Light wanted to change the world because he didn't like it, he wanted to use his death note to become god.

C.C helped Lelouch in every single way possible with all her strength.
Ryuke just eat apples and gives us a creepy ass smiles with his ugly ass face...

If we're going to do Death note to CG comparsions... I'll have to say that Schneizel is best compared to Light

And Ryuke, iunno Diethart kind of reminded me of him for some reason...

Light wanted to rid the world of wars and crimes, and he succeeded to a large degree. He wanted a world where everyone would be kind and hard-working. And he was doing it because he felt the world was rotten, not out of some unresolved Freudian abandonment issues that manifested in a faux siscon complex. And unlike Lelouch pre- Turn 21, Light had the resolve to do what he felt was necessary even if it meant hurting people he cared about. The main differences between Light and Lelouch are that Light has a higher level of cold intelligence and his immaturity lies in how he views good and evil, whereas Lelouch's immaturity lies in having the emotional sophistication of a child. Schneizel isn't comparable to Light at all because he didn't do anything out of some moral urgency. He only did the things he did because he felt that's what the world wanted of him. Unlike Lelouch and Light, Schneizel is a man of no ambitions.

As for C.C., you really might want to reassess your statements about her. She kept the truth about Lelouch's past from him, and her primary motive in giving him Geass in the first place was to one day dump immortality on him. She grew to care about Lelouch, but at the beginning all she cared about was keeping him alive long enough to kill her.

[Micante]

Originally Posted by Discerptor

Light wanted to rid the world of wars and crimes, and he succeeded to a large degree. He wanted a world where everyone would be kind and hard-working. And he was doing it because he felt the world was rotten, not out of some unresolved Freudian abandonment issues that manifested in a faux siscon complex. And unlike Lelouch pre- Turn 21, Light had the resolve to do what he felt was necessary even if it meant hurting people he cared about. The only differences between Light and Lelouch are that Light is smarter and his immaturity lies in how he views good and evil, whereas Lelouch's immaturity lies in having the emotional sophistication of a child.

As for C.C., you really might want to reassess your statements about her. She kept the truth about Lelouch's past from him, and her primary motive in giving him Geass in the first place was to one day dump immortality on him. She grew to care about Lelouch, but at the beginning all she cared about was keeping him alive long enough to kill her.

Yup... the only similarities about C.C. and Ryuk were their immortalness. C.C. grew too attached to Lelouch. If Ryuk had to choose between Light or himself, he'd kill Light, in fact he did just that in the manga ending.

For the two immortals, I'm not too sure which I like more... C.C.'s a complex suffering immortal that got too involved with her partner, but Ryuk's a detached indifferent immortal and was more of a speculator than anything. I don't think Ryuk's done anything beneficial for Light without Light telling him to do it (Getting rid of cameras, transferring Death Notes, etc. In the end, when Light told Ryuk to kill everyone, Ryuk killed Light then and there).

Although the world hasn't really changed since Light's death. I guess it just goes to show how rotten Light's world was or that you can't rely on a mask to change everything. >_>

[Thar]

I'd like to assume for a moment that Lelouch is dead and jump onto a simple question: why?

For me, Lelouch had to die because of geass. Forcing people to obey you isn't good, wheter done by Charles and his army, by Schneizel and his Damocles or by Lelouch and his eyelight. He had to atone for that and he was aware of it. But besides of reconciliation, there should be also repentance. Unfortunately, Lelouch never felt sorry for his actions. Sometimes he was saddened, when something didn't turned out as planned, but only because he viewed every failure as his personal flaw. To the very end he remained in his lies and hypocrisy, even after stating that humans have to cope with lies, he didn't make any step for that. That's why I like to see him dead rather than living.

[gbaka34]

Lelouch is probably alive why? not because of proof from the anime, but simply because of its popularity and fact that sunrise owns the rights to it...

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Thar

I'd like to assume for a moment that Lelouch is dead and jump onto a simple question: why?

For me, Lelouch had to die because of geass. Forcing people to obey you isn't good, wheter done by Charles and his army, by Schneizel and his Damocles or by Lelouch and his eyelight. He had to atone for that and he was aware of it. But besides of reconciliation, there should be also repentance. Unfortunately, Lelouch vever felt sorry for his actions. Sometimes he was saddened, when something didn't turned out as planned, but only because he viewed every failure as his personal flaw. To the very end he remained in his lies and hypocrisy, even after stating that humans have to cope with lies, he didn't make any step for that. That's why I like to see him dead rather than living.

What made you think he didn't help people cope with lies?

In the last episode, Lulu told the greatest lie of all; that Good would always triumph over Evil.

That lie was so convincing, that people started believing in Justice again.

It was a lie. But as quoting from Terry Pratchett, we have to start believing in such lies, before we could make them real.

If all you could see is Lulu killing himself to "atone for his sins", then you are justing seeing his ACT. That's what he want you to see, that's what he want the world to see. It is about making people believe that justice is served.

In reality, Lulu was not a villain, yet he "died". Ougi was not a hero, but he was made a Saviour of the Japanese even though he did nothing to earn that. Suzaku wanted to die, but now he has to become the image of what he once hated.

It's all lies; but it is preferable to Charles' truth. Charles sees the truth that humans are violent and heartless animals, and said so. The truth did nothing to help improve anything, but only justify injustice.

*******
I once read a manga called "Misery". One chapter was about a child who was ashamed of his father's acting job; his father played a famous villain in a power-ranger TV show.
"Why couldn't he be a Ranger, why is he a bad guy?"

The child was granted a transformation watch by Misery for a few days. He proceeded to beat up some bullies and in the process, seriously hurt some of them with his super strength. The cops were called and the kid had to run away.
When asked why he was looked upon as a bad guy, Misery told him it was because he didn't have a rival super villain; without a villain, a superhero can't justify using any kind of violence he can dish out.

The world of Code Geass needed a Hero; but to make the Hero look good, it needed a Villain. It's all about appearances; lies, if you will. Zero needed to exist, and that Hero is Suzaku (whether he was really a hero before, didn't matter).
And the Villain is Lulouch. (Once again, whether he is a villain or not in reality didn't matter.)

And finally, the Hero need to kill the Villain. (Whether the Villain actually died in reality or not, didn't matter.)


This is about using lies to make the world a better place. Because unless we can believe the world can become what it isn't, we can't change it.

[DesertRain]

Very well said.
Kinda reminded me of Mukoro Rokudo though when the illusion version of himself said something like what are the lies hidden in truth and what are the truths hidden in lies... This is the nature of the mists or somethin like that.

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

What made you think he didn't help people cope with lies?

In the last episode, Lulu told the greatest lie of all; that Good would always triumph over Evil.

That lie was so convincing, that people started believing in Justice again.

It was a lie. But as quoting from Terry Pratchett, we have to start believing in such lies, before we could make them real.

If all you could see is Lulu killing himself to "atone for his sins", then you are justing seeing his ACT. That's what he want you to see, that's what he want the world to see. It is about making people believe that justice is served.

In reality, Lulu was not a villain, yet he "died". Ougi was not a hero, but he was made a Saviour of the Japanese even though he did nothing to earn that. Suzaku wanted to die, but now he has to become the image of what he once hated.

It's all lies; but it is preferable to Charles' truth. Charles sees the truth that humans are violent and heartless animals, and said so. The truth did nothing to help improve anything, but only justify injustice.

*******
I once read a manga called "Misery". One chapter was about a child who was ashamed of his father's acting job; his father played a famous villain in a power-ranger TV show.
"Why couldn't he be a Ranger, why is he a bad guy?"

The child was granted a transformation watch by Misery for a few days. He proceeded to beat up some bullies and in the process, seriously hurt some of them with his super strength. The cops were called and the kid had to run away.
When asked why he was looked upon as a bad guy, Misery told him it was because he didn't have a rival super villain; without a villain, a superhero can't justify using any kind of violence he can dish out.

The world of Code Geass needed a Hero; but to make the Hero look good, it needed a Villain. It's all about appearances; lies, if you will. Zero needed to exist, and that Hero is Suzaku (whether he was really a hero before, didn't matter).
And the Villain is Lulouch. (Once again, whether he is a villain or not in reality didn't matter.)

And finally, the Hero need to kill the Villain. (Whether the Villain actually died in reality or not, didn't matter.)


This is about using lies to make the world a better place. Because unless we can believe the world can become what it isn't, we can't change it.

[BlazingSoul]

How true. Lelouch really wasn't all that bad. He's like under the "Chaotic Good" affinity alignment.

Originally Posted by DesertRain

Very well said.
Kinda reminded me of Mukoro Rokudo though when the illusion version of himself said something like what are the lies hidden in truth and what are the truths hidden in lies... This is the nature of the mists or somethin like that.

[Narona]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

What made you think he didn't help people cope with lies?

In the last episode, Lulu told the greatest lie of all; that Good would always triumph over Evil.

That lie was so convincing, that people started believing in Justice again.

It was a lie. But as quoting from Terry Pratchett, we have to start believing in such lies, before we could make them real.

If all you could see is Lulu killing himself to "atone for his sins", then you are justing seeing his ACT. That's what he want you to see, that's what he want the world to see. It is about making people believe that justice is served.

In reality, Lulu was not a villain, yet he "died". Ougi was not a hero, but he was made a Saviour of the Japanese even though he did nothing to earn that. Suzaku wanted to die, but now he has to become the image of what he once hated.

It's all lies; but it is preferable to Charles' truth. Charles sees the truth that humans are violent and heartless animals, and said so. The truth did nothing to help improve anything, but only justify injustice.

*******
I once read a manga called "Misery". One chapter was about a child who was ashamed of his father's acting job; his father played a famous villain in a power-ranger TV show.
"Why couldn't he be a Ranger, why is he a bad guy?"

The child was granted a transformation watch by Misery for a few days. He proceeded to beat up some bullies and in the process, seriously hurt some of them with his super strength. The cops were called and the kid had to run away.
When asked why he was looked upon as a bad guy, Misery told him it was because he didn't have a rival super villain; without a villain, a superhero can't justify using any kind of violence he can dish out.

The world of Code Geass needed a Hero; but to make the Hero look good, it needed a Villain. It's all about appearances; lies, if you will. Zero needed to exist, and that Hero is Suzaku (whether he was really a hero before, didn't matter).
And the Villain is Lulouch. (Once again, whether he is a villain or not in reality didn't matter.)

And finally, the Hero need to kill the Villain. (Whether the Villain actually died in reality or not, didn't matter.)


This is about using lies to make the world a better place. Because unless we can believe the world can become what it isn't, we can't change it.

Wow, good post. It fits well with what I think.

It's all lies but they did that to make the world a better place, but also a place which has a future. A better future.

Lelouch and Suzaku are real hero for me. They gave everything to make their world a better place.

Remember

Originally Posted by Lelouch

40.This is sudden, but what is love?: A thing you give without limitation.
48.What kind of person is Suzaku?: Too nice to the point of a fool….

All Hail Lelouch and Suzaku

[Thar]

I never claimed he didn't help other people. It is just a sad insight, that on number of occasions he refused to answer truthfully. I think he weared his mask for too long and was unable to take it off, just like the geass he used became stronger and stronger, to the point he couldn't control it anymore. But all the time he was aware of consequences, hence my attempt at defending Sunrise. Though I will admit, that killing the main character in last episode is silly move. This could be handled much more... Satisfactory.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Thar

I never claimed he didn't help other people. It is just a sad insight, that on number of occasions he refused to answer truthfully. I think he weared his mask for too long and was unable to take it off, just like the geass he used became stronger and stronger, to the point he couldn't control it anymore. But all the time he was aware of consequences, hence my attempt at defending Sunrise. Though I will admit, that killing the main character in last episode is silly move. This could be handled much more... Satisfactory.

That's why Sunrise covered the face of the wagon driver.

It's your choice to believe if he survived or not. I chose to believe he did, and Sunrise left enough wriggle room both ways to support either view.

[Vito]

Sunrise.... I'd rather say it was the decision of the director and the writer. I still claim that from what the show has shown us, Lelouch is dead, the only reason people went on a rampage and damage control is because of the cart driver. So I think I'll go with Occam's razor on this one, he's dead (unlike FLEIJA, the sword scene was pretty graphic).

If Lelouch lives... he'd be an ass, I think Nunally will wake up for a while screaming with that last image of her brother, not to mention he had thrown an epic burden on Suzaku's shoulders. If Lelouch tricked Suzaku into believing that he killed him, again this just shows Lelouch would be an ass (and I doubt Suzaku would shed tears or be ok with Euphie's killer living). The only two people who'd benefit from him still being alive is C.C. and him... see where this is going?

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Vito

Sunrise.... I'd rather say it was the decision of the director and the writer. I still claim that from what the show has shown us, Lelouch is dead, the only reason people went on a rampage and damage control is because of the cart driver. So I think I'll go with Occam's razor on this one, he's dead (unlike FLEIJA, the sword scene was pretty graphic).

If Lelouch lives... he'd be an ass, I think Nunally will wake up for a while screaming with that last image of her brother, not to mention he had thrown an epic burden on Suzaku's shoulders. If Lelouch tricked Suzaku into believing that he killed him, again this just shows Lelouch would be an ass (and I doubt Suzaku would shed tears or be ok with Euphie's killer living). The only two people who'd benefit from him still being alive is C.C. and him... see where this is going?

You are assuming Lulu planned to survive.

If you included the possibility that Lulu survived by some unforeseen circumstance, it would make sense. After all, it isn't the first time that something went wrong with Lulu's plans. It's only fair that it could happen for his benefit for once.

Murphy owed him that much. It's the least he can do for all the times Lulu's plans went wrong.

And let me repeat myself; it is not important whether Lulu died or not. His death was not the goal, but the means to an end. And as long as the goal was achieved, his actual survival isn't very important.
(What IS important is that even if he survived, no one is allowed to know.)

[Revolutionist]

Originally Posted by Vito

Sunrise.... I'd rather say it was the decision of the director and the writer. I still claim that from what the show has shown us, Lelouch is dead, the only reason people went on a rampage and damage control is because of the cart driver. So I think I'll go with Occam's razor on this one, he's dead (unlike FLEIJA, the sword scene was pretty graphic).

If Lelouch lives... he'd be an ass, I think Nunally will wake up for a while screaming with that last image of her brother, not to mention he had thrown an epic burden on Suzaku's shoulders. If Lelouch tricked Suzaku into believing that he killed him, again this just shows Lelouch would be an ass (and I doubt Suzaku would shed tears or be ok with Euphie's killer living). The only two people who'd benefit from him still being alive is C.C. and him... see where this is going?

If he survived due to unforeseen circumstances, i.e getting a code and not knowing it until he woke up from being "dead" then it wouldn't make him an ass because he didn't plan on it. Besides, be it dead or alive he's going to disappear into history with C.C. Oh and he gets to witness the deaths of his loved ones while he remains in the body of a 19 year old for eternity. Does that sound like a satisfactory ending to you? Well maybe it's better than death but it doesn't change the fact that immortality is pretty bad...

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

If he survived due to unforeseen circumstances, i.e getting a code and not knowing it until he woke up from being "dead" then it wouldn't make him an ass because he didn't plan on it. Besides, be it dead or alive he's going to disappear into history with C.C. Oh and he gets to witness the deaths of his loved ones while he remains in the body of a 19 year old for eternity. Does that sound like a satisfactory ending to you? Well maybe it's better than death but it doesn't change the fact that immortality is pretty bad...

I agree that Lulu isn't an ass, but I also need to repeat my position that immortality is only as bad as you think it is.

If witnessing the death of loved ones means you are allowed to kill yourself afterwards instead of moving on, I want no such "blessing".

It would be like saying dying from starvation is okay because you would never go hungry again; it doesn't make any sense. But I am repeating myself, so I'll stop there...