Higurashi Spoiler Discussion (for people who have read the clues/finished the series)

[tobiast88]

Repeating it won't make it true.
My argument: there is no interaction with the game with Rika, except one or two mentions that Rika knows someone is observing. The line you cite means the reader "needs to believe" Rika will succeed - but it doesn't affect the outcome, does it ? A machine could be clicking the mouse for all the game knows.
Your argument: I think.

[theacefrehley]

Originally Posted by tobiast88

@Ace: so, what is your theory ? That there are 3 entities (Rika, Frederika Bernkastel, and Dark Rika? And Bernkastel from Umineko?). That's a bit inelegant.

Well, yeah
And
Frederika Bernkastel=Bernkastel from Umineko.

I'll make clear what I think by the end of the post.

I don't believe Frederika can *enter* the pieces, but I believe she can observe what's going on, and that the deaths of Rika add to her, like drops of rain that make a barrel.

I agree
She can't enter and can observe things. Like a movie or a soccer game
And Rika is her favorite team (obviously )

But, Rika has access to her memories from past worlds. How? Is it from Frederika Bernkastel directly, or does she remember by sheer repetition? And wouldn't that mean that her friends and everyone else would remember the do-overs as well?

Because she herself jumps from piece to piece after her death (let's say her soul/mind) with Hanyuu. And her friends don't do that.

I think the Dark Rika aspect of Rika is Frederika Bernkastel. But try forcing a human into an ant; it won't work. So I think Dark Rika is a "watered-down" form of Frederika Bernkastel, who has just the basics (anything further like the pieces and the memories from ALL the worlds would drive her crazy, and it's said that even this digest form is making her lose touch with reality).

That's where we disagree.
I think Dark Rika =/= Frederika Bernkastel. While Rika is inside a kakera, Frederika is there observing her in a higher dimension.


However, what I really mean with all this is:
'My' Bernkastel is completely useless to Higurashi world.
Things could work perfectly with just Rika and Hanyuu jumping from world to world without all that stuff of putting the pieces together, kakeras and kakera world.
To me, the only use for Bernkastel was to make some interaction with the readers and explain some things, like rules XYZ and Hanyuu/Rika's 'power' and such, as it'd be too weird for a real character to explain these.


Well, but this seems to not be the same for Umineko, as her role seems to be getting more active with her interaction with Ange (well, until all the witch/magic bullshit is exposed).

By the way;
Did you read minagoroshi-hen manga?
Well, that's my image of things.

[tobiast88]

So we basically agree up until the nature of Dark Rika. Where do you think she comes from ?

(No, haven't read the Minagoroshi manga, waiting for the tankobon)

[theacefrehley]

Originally Posted by tobiast88

So we basically agree up until the nature of Dark Rika. Where do you think she comes from ?

(No, haven't read the Minagoroshi manga, waiting for the tankobon)

Dark Rika comes from the successive failures that killed her enthusiasm

As for Frederika I think she came from Rika. She's like Rika's 'beehive mind', that came to be in that useless world.

[tobiast88]

Yeah, I agree with you on the nature of Frederika. その話をおいといて。。。^^;

But where does Dark Rika get her memories then ? I understand she's jaded and cynical from her failures, but why does Rika remember them ? Is it just by repetition, or is it the hand of Bern ?

[theacefrehley]

Originally Posted by tobiast88

Yeah, I agree with you on the nature of Frederika. その話をおいといて。。。^^;

But where does Dark Rika get her memories then ? I understand she's jaded and cynical from her failures, but why does Rika remember them ? Is it just by repetition, or is it the hand of Bern ?

Of course I can't say anything for sure
But I think it's from Hanyuu's powers. Hanyuu transports her mind/memories to the next world after each failure. Hanyuu is a God after all...

[tobiast88]

But don't her memories go to the space between worlds and to Bern ?

[theacefrehley]

Originally Posted by tobiast88

But don't her memories go to the space between worlds and to Bern ?

Maybe they do, since they have some kind of 'link', like an automatic update ;

Or maybe Frederika knows everything (that is, has the memories) because she's watching everything closely (to Rika, not freely).

[Eryops]

Based on the scene at the start of Minagoroshi-hen, it seemed to me that Rika's memories got to the world with the fragments first and are relayed from there to the next world.

[SealedTime]

Okay, lets take it that i was not in the right mind when i was saying that. The readers plays a minor role in the game, but u cannot deny that without the player, the miracle would not have happened. Afterall, to create a miracle, Fredrika states that everyone's strength is needed.

[Klashikari]

That is completely unrelated. They say "everyone" as in "Keiichi" and co, the readers and such are completely unrelated to the struggle.
The only missing piece was Hanyuu, that's all.

[SealedTime]

There's this line which says "by everyone,that includes you too". It is addressed to the reader, so i am going to assume the reader is necessary for rika to break fate.

[Klashikari]

...It was long. ...It really was a long journey, wasn't it?

Are you okay...? Is your conscious still alive...?

I hope we've collected everything we can to our advantage on this game board. This is everything that we have in our hands to go up against Takano on the outcome of June 1983.

...I think...yes, we do have everything we need.

And last but not least...it's you, Hanyu.

Your powers have weakened so much that the time alotted for you to be a pivotal piece is very limited...

But that doesn't mean you yourself cannot physically show up in the game.



....So, ready to begin?

I lived a hundred years for this moment...

This is the Matsuribayashi-hen piece. Self explanatory.

[SealedTime]

i see. Well, i admit i made a mistake. Thanks for correcting me then.

[Ithekro]

As for the player...there is one thing that they must do in order to free Rika and the others...They must play. If the player does not play, nothing happens. If the player does not believe, then the story is meaningless. Sort of like "The Neverending Story". If the reader doesn't read/imagine the story...does the story exist? The text is there, but it is fairly meaningless without the reader. If no one cares...the story is rather pointless.

[SealedTime]

Good point

[anonymousnanodesuu]

just finished the series not too long ago and read through most of this thread, but theres very little about the origin of takano. What i want to know is how did she get involved with the army and when koizumi promised his group or faction to produce a bioweapon from this research in order to support takano and establish the irie institution, then why would takano need to meet with those other tokyo guys to get their approval? which instead made them want to cure it instead which is opposite of takano's intentions?

I thought with koizumi promising the bioweapon warfare and funded takano and established the irie clinic to research in secret, why would she still need more approval?

Isn't it enough that she got koizumi most influential supporter of tokyo?

[Rias]

Originally Posted by anonymousnanodesuu

just finished the series not too long ago and read through most of this thread, but theres very little about the origin of takano. What i want to know is how did she get involved with the army and when koizumi promised his group or faction to produce a bioweapon from this research in order to support takano and establish the irie institution, then why would takano need to meet with those other tokyo guys to get their approval? which instead made them want to cure it instead which is opposite of takano's intentions?

I thought with koizumi promising the bioweapon warfare and funded takano and established the irie clinic to research in secret, why would she still need more approval?

Isn't it enough that she got koizumi most influential supporter of tokyo?

Yes, but that was until Koizumi died and Takano lost her main supporter.

[anonymousnanodesuu]

Originally Posted by Rias

Yes, but that was until Koizumi died and Takano lost her main supporter.

No i mean before koizumi died. Koizumi created the irie institution for takano to do research in secret for bioweapon uses, and in ep 14 of the 2nd season, takano met with some guys to submit her research.

My point is why would she need to meet with them? She already had koizumi give her funds and established the clinic for her research, she had done her thing until koizumi died. So why go to the pointless trouble of meeting with those guys to find a cure and get more people involved which eventually made her suspect and had to kill them off?

[Ithekro]

Status report perhaps? To keep funds coming one needs to show results.

Also the original plan wasn't to kill everyone. That comes out of desperation after Koizumi's death and the cutting of the project. Miyo wants to prove her "grandfather's" work. She doesn't want them laughing and stepping on his or her work. Though the question comes how does one prove her work if you kill all the subjects and erase the evidence? Or was that not her plan exactly? Did someone alter her plan (as in kill her once the village was gassed) and then created a coverup?