The Second Battle of Orb

[PzIVf3]

[QUOTE=Paladinoras;2039662]By you??

Oh, gods, that is like, the TOTAL UNDERSTATEMENT OF THE YEAR!!!

YOU TOTALLY ACED THIS THREAD MAN, I AM BOWING DOWN IN YOUR SUPREMACY!!!

BY GOD, YOUR ARGUMENTS ALL TOTALLY MAKE SENSE AND HAS NO LOOPHOLES!!!

Thank you for making me an aced. And I also thanks coba for support he's a very good explanation and historic war.

[coba]

Lol, I am back temporarily.

Originally Posted by Paladinoras

And as I have said parlement =/= military. There is no proof to say that Orb's military officers did not WANT to protect Orb, it is just that they need to receive the order from the PARLEMENT to react. If the parlement is hindering the military, then it doesn't really matter whether they are capable or not.

I believe I never say that Orb's military officers did not WANT to protect Orb. I said that they are incompetent. None of them try to re-organize their defense even though it startas to collapse (only after Cagalli arrives do they repair it). Remeber, Yuuna at that time even yells at the commanding office to do something about the collapsing defense (in fact, Yuuna doesn't hinder the military at all), but they are really incapable of doing their job.

Plus, that was the ZGMF-X2000 he was referring to. Which is the Heine Westenfluss custom, which should be better than the original GOUF. The MP version usually has some cutdowns and stuff.. .

Actually, Heine's Gouf is actually the same as other Goufs as s tated in the model kit. In fact, Heine's is the first prototype of the Gouf.

Lol, ok. Yes, it is not. But the timeskip btwn ZAKU and GOUF, at any rate, is only prolly a few months apart. It is practically impossible to make a groundbreaking revolution and increase in quality in such a short period of time.

Well, the ZAFT can create Freedom and Justice while the EA rolls out Forbidden etc for less than 3 months . So...

What? Freedom and Impulse vs Destroy? Well, that is again, different. The DESTROY was, let's face it here, easy targets. A blind man could shoot it. While the Murasame is smaller and lighter than the GOUF. And they have more weapons. And it can go into MA mode. And still fire the missiles. . .

That's my point. You use both armament and weight as the most important factor to evaluate MS. Unfortunately, there are other factors who are more important.

And ORB did not implement it . . . why??? and how???

Because the Sirans are too busy to kiss Djbril's ass ?

At ep 39, the ZAKU were Gunner Zaku Warrior types, which were the slowest type of all. And benchmarking speed with SF is also pointless, as it can defeat the GOUFs easily, and take out Murasames as if they are nothing as well.

And the Murasame's thruster, even if weaker, would still be more than enough to make it faster. Plus, it can go into MA mode, giving it more maneuverability than the GOUF.

I believe not all of the Zakus are the gunner variation. BTW, SF never faces Murasame, Freedom (that is weaker than SF BTW since SF's engine output is four time of the Freedom's) does. This is where the ZAKU's performance is well below the Gouf since the blue Goufs (that are eventually destroyed by the dragoons) can at least catch up to the SF. The Gouf BTW also has the advantage of HiMAT for the manuverability.

Oh, we must be talking about different planes then, I was referring to the F/A-18.

F/A-18! is acctually lighter than F-18E. Its weight is only 10.8 tonnes (compareed to the F-18E's 13 tonnes)

Yes, and of course, I learnt this painfully when I argued for SF vs Wing Zero. Anyways, yeah, I know, and a difference of over 30 tons would have to be replaced with a giant amount of thrust.

Let's put it this way

Say the thrust power of the GOUF is 100 000 kg

That would make its T/W ratio to be : 100000/ 72130 = 1.39

For the same amount of thrust,

the T/W ratio of the Murasame would be : 100000/48660 = 2.06

To have the same thrust to power ratio,

the thrust of Murasame has to be: 48660 x 1.39 = 67 000 kg

And it is highly unlikely that the difference in thrust for the two suits is that big. Even 100000 kg is already an amazing number for the thrust power of an MP suit.

So yeah

I do believe the common unit to use for the thrust is newton or lbf (not mass unit - lbf is pound forces and ifferent than the regular lbs used in the mass). Also, engine thrust can really vary a lot. For example, the engine used in the Boeing 777 can produce thrust almost three time of the engine in 767 (which is one generation older)

The skill of the pilots matter as well. I am sure that Baba would be turning in his grave if he saw how his fellow pilots are fighting.

Well, Baba is an experienced pilot though (you can consider him as equl to ZAFT's red coat like Heine). Also, some of those pilots used Astrays which are older compared to Murasame.

And those good pilots also customised their MS by themselves. Which can mean drastic increase in performance. And, sides they are not all brawn, look at Elijah Kiel, I think that he is a Natural, correct me if I am wrong, and he managed to create his own armaments and phase-shift armor...

Elijah Keil is a coordinator and former ZAFT red coat.

And Strike Gundam was not invented by ZAFT. It was their idea.

I believe I never claim that Strike Gundam was invented by ZAFT. In fact, contrary to what most people believe, the Strike is invented by the Orb's Morgenrete. The involvement of the AF in GAT project is limited to the role of paying for the development costs.

Mirage Colloid, like what that guy said, was invented by the Atlantic Federation.

I believe the info is kinda misleading. Someone in AF discover the Mirage Colloid particle (i.e it is likely already available in the nature). They don't know how to use it though. the first one who implement the Mirage Colloid particle to a technology is once again Orb's Morgenrete with the Blitz gundam.

The AF manage to be the one who first use it as energy barrier (in the Forbidden), but they figure it out after they receive the data from the Blitz.

Only for nuclear weapons. And comparatively speaking, the amount of Strike Dagger Variants and Strike Variants and Forbidden variants, and the other amount of variants would be more than enough to dwarf the accomplishment of the ZAFT forces by a couple of decades. . .

Most of the variants only involve changing the armaments though. They don't really introduce any new tehcnology. ZAFT, on the other hand, introduce a lot of new technology such as the fastest spaceship (Nazca class), drop pods, etc.

And even if Eurasia had coordinators working for them, this only serves to prove my point, Naturals and Coordinators are the perfect combo...

Well, even a natural can be a genius (after all, we have Einstein, Nohr, etc.). The difference is that you likely have 1 genius out of 10 naturals while coordinators can have 6 out of 10.

Dearka did not use a GOUF in the last battle. Yzak for most of the series also used the Slash Zaku Phantom, even when the GOUF was already rolled out. Rey, Lunamaria, and even Heine used the ZAKUs for a period of time. When GOUFs were rolled out, we don't hear them crying for one, eh??

That's That's because Dearka don't have a right to get Gouf. Gouf is reserved for red coat and commander.

Luna, Rey and Heine used the ZAKUs in the first half of GSD bacuse that's the best ZAFT can offer. Only the Gundams (Impulse, Saviour, etc) are better than the Zaku. During the second half of it, most of them discard hteir Zakus. Luna gets Impulse, Rey Legend and even Yzak replaces his Slash Zaku Phantom to Gouf.

HiMAT was basically wings. And that took inspiration from the Strike, to a certain extent. The Wings Of Light used Mirage Colloid and the Voitere Lumiere system, which was invented by the EA and the DSSD, respectively.

So really, they did not invent them. They just used them . . .

Well that is still invention though (most of the inventions in the real world come from copy aspiration of others).

Yes. They were. And only two were actually used by them.

SF and IJ's design was imperfect, that was why Lacus' technicians improved them.

Freedom and Justice are really only GAT-X series suits, with Neutron Jammer Cancellers.

Actually, the Lacus' technician do not change or add anything to the SF and IJ. It is clearly stated by the model kit that they plainly steal the blue print and build them as it is.

For Freedom and Justice, ZAFT implements a lost of new technology. For example, they add the multi-lock targetting system (which can lock different targets at the same time) which is not simple to implement. Freedom has an improved HiMat while Justice gets a remote-controlled back pack.

And although some would prefer to stay at PLANT, even more will decide to run away, especially after the EA tried to nuke bomb them. . .

Well that's what some coordinatord did in the GS. They migrate to Orb to get a safe place. However, in the end, even the Orb gets attacked (with significant civilian casualties). In addition, Erica Simmons (who hide her identity as coordinator) also mentioned on how racism toward the coordinator is also present in Orb (well we know Seiran is the culprit). These two factors (no guarantee living in peace as well as the surviving parlement is pro Seiran) make some coordinator return to Plant after the battle of GS end.

Well, it really should not be surprising that the officers used for defensive and offensive are the same, because the Orb principle did not demand for them to attack other people, so there really would be no need for two separate atttacking and defending forces.

And it is not shown that they have a limited number of personnel. Well, for homeland defense, that is. It can be seen that they have dozens of battleships ready to defend the country, while for the attack, they only devoted a few ships, although the Takemikazuchi is a pricey addition.

The problem is that if you have enough personnels, you will at least have two people in charge of defensive and offensive. Just think about it, when the Orb is in the offensive stand (just like what happen near the end of GS), who will be in charge for the defense of the homeland ?

Also, in both first and second battle of Orb, you can see that there are only few battleships (less than 12) defending Onogoro's island. If they do have a lot of battle ships, they should devote most of them to defend considering that they are being invaded.

And even ZAFT did not divide their forces into two properly. Although Yzak and Dearka was placed in ZAFT, I doubt that they were there for homeland defense. I think that they were placed there because nobody trusts them to fight in Earth. While they sent the Minerva, their best ship to fight in Earth. With all of their ace mobile suits and pilots. SO really, the ZAFT military is not as foolproof as it seems.

Actually, Yzak and dearka are indeed part of homeland defense. If they were placed there because nobody trusts them to fight in Earth, then they wouldn't be sent to attack the Requiem.

BTW, ZAFT did divide their forces into two properly. Minerva is mainly used for offensive purposes, while Gondwana (their giant super carrier that can bring hundreds of MS) for defensive purposes. Yzak is actually part of Gondwana's forces. Regarding the ace, ZAFT also have several aces for their space defense such as Yzak, Shiho, etc. In fact, I believe they put 60% of their forces toward their space defense since the ZAFT know how vulnarable the PLANT is.

[lordyu]

Orb did not invent the technology for the G weapons. The AF Developed and designed most of the technology while only requiring orb to provide a secret development area and it more advance battery technology. Orb copied almost every thing except Phase shift. Do not under estimate the technology of the EA especially the AF. People give orb to much credit for stolen technology. they used the AF just as the AF used them. examples are littered with examples. How did you think shaku got mirage colloid. Why did Orb no simply developed it for her MS. Orb is very technological advance along with Zaft but people give them to much credit.

[lordyu]

Official description of the EF=Eurasian Federation

Federation

One of the leading powers within the Earth Alliance, this nation is a longtime rival, and now uneasy ally, of the Atlantic Federation. Originally formed from the nations of Europe and northern Asia, the Eurasian Federation is governed by a federal council dominated by the nations of the European region. Among its strategic assets is the space fortress Artemis, located at Lagrange point 3.

When a new war breaks out between Earth and the PLANTs, the Eurasian Federation once again sides with the Atlantic Federation. Meanwhile, its citizens become increasingly vocal in their demands for independence. As the war continues, ZAFT forces begin to intervene on behalf of these independence movements, liberating their homes and cities from Eurasian Federation control.

find some insight about who zaft was fighting WEF

[coba]

Originally Posted by lordyu

Orb did not invent the technology for the G weapons. The AF Developed and designed most of the technology while only requiring orb to provide a secret development area and it more advance battery technology. Orb copied almost every thing except Phase shift. Do not under estimate the technology of the EA especially the AF. People give orb to much credit for stolen technology. they used the AF just as the AF used them. examples are littered with examples. How did you think shaku got mirage colloid. Why did Orb no simply developed it for her MS. Orb is very technological advance along with Zaft but people give them to much credit.

The G weapons is a collaboration between Morgenrete under the order of Shahaku family and the AF (stated in the model kit). Erica Simmons has an important role in developing most of the technology for the G weapon. The AF have enough money, but don't have enough genious people to completely build their own Gundam. That's the reason why they decide to work together with Morgenrete in the first place. For mirage colloid cloaking device used in the Shahku's Gold Frame Astray is actually developed entirely by Morgenrete.

BTW, the world "invent" can mislead. For example, people probably already "discovered" wave centuries ago (after all, you can find wave almost everywhere in the real life). Unfortunately, nobody really cares about it until someone named Schrodinger introduced the wave properties and "invented" the wave equation.

This analogy is quite similar with the mirage colloid. The AF discovered the existence of mirage colloid in the first place. Unfortunately, they don't know how to implement it in the useful technology. Hence, they collaborate with Morgenrete to create a technology based on the mirage colloid. As you can see, the AF only discover what mirage colloid is while the Morgenrete technically invent the mirage colloid technology (just think about it, if the AF can invent the mirage colloid technology themselves, they won't need to collaborate with Morgenrete in the first place).

[Paladinoras]

[QUOTE=PzIVf3;2040719]

Originally Posted by Paladinoras

By you??




Thank you for making me an aced. And I also thanks coba for support he's a very good explanation and historic war.

Oh Gods, he does not understand sarcasm . .

Never mind, then. . .

Originally Posted by coba

Lol, I am back temporarily.

Lol, good for you. I will be gone soon too. Damn exams. . .

Originally Posted by coba

I believe I never say that Orb's military officers did not WANT to protect Orb. I said that they are incompetent. None of them try to re-organize their defense even though it startas to collapse (only after Cagalli arrives do they repair it). Remeber, Yuuna at that time even yells at the commanding office to do something about the collapsing defense (in fact, Yuuna doesn't hinder the military at all), but they are really incapable of doing their job.

No, it is not that they were incompetent in restructuring the defense, they were hindered by an idiotic leader. He came late and gave the order for defense late. Which means restructuring of the defense came late, and that cost them dearly. Cagalli's presence was accompanied by 18 Murasames or so and the Akatsuki and they took out a substantial amount of ZAFT MS, giving the Orb defense a little breathing room which gives them time to organize the defense. In fact, the speed at which the Orb forces re-organized themselves were a testament to their skill.

Originally Posted by coba

Actually, Heine's Gouf is actually the same as other Goufs as s tated in the model kit. In fact, Heine's is the first prototype of the Gouf.

No, the model kit said that their ARMAMENTS was the same. Not the power of the thruster. And even if they are the same, the only thing that made Heine's GOUF special, is the pilot..

Originally Posted by coba

Well, the ZAFT can create Freedom and Justice while the EA rolls out Forbidden etc for less than 3 months . So...

Because both of them had a starting base to work on, the GAT-X series. And the Freedom, Justice, Forbidden, etc, etc, were Gundams, which means that the top engineers and scientists would be working to improve it. While, for the GOUF, a MP MS, umm, well, not as much. Hell, the scientists already took two years to design the ZAKU and the GOUF, and prolly won't make any revolutionary changes in the last two months before its release. . .

Originally Posted by coba

That's my point. You use both armament and weight as the most important factor to evaluate MS. Unfortunately, there are other factors who are more important.

Yes, such as the size of the mobile suit, which in this case, the Murasame has the upper hand as it is smaller, making it a harder target to hit.

Originally Posted by coba

Because the Sirans are too busy to kiss Djbril's ass ?

How does this have anything to do with the development of MS??

Originally Posted by coba

I believe not all of the Zakus are the gunner variation. BTW, SF never faces Murasame, Freedom (that is weaker than SF BTW since SF's engine output is four time of the Freedom's) does. This is where the ZAKU's performance is well below the Gouf since the blue Goufs (that are eventually destroyed by the dragoons) can at least catch up to the SF. The Gouf BTW also has the advantage of HiMAT for the manuverability.

Actually, the Freedom is only about two or three times as weak than SF, and this is only a rumor, it was never confirmed.

Plus, I don't get the idea that the GOUFs managed to catch up with SF. . I rewatched ep 39, and the GOUFs did not catch up to SF, they stood still and fired at them. Then, when SF came close, they bungee-corded its arms and legs and dies soon after. The rest just died from the Full-Burst attack. ..

Originally Posted by coba

F/A-18! is acctually lighter than F-18E. Its weight is only 10.8 tonnes (compareed to the F-18E's 13 tonnes)

Seriously? Damn, faulty guidebook!!!!

Originally Posted by coba

I do believe the common unit to use for the thrust is newton or lbf (not mass unit - lbf is pound forces and ifferent than the regular lbs used in the mass). Also, engine thrust can really vary a lot. For example, the engine used in the Boeing 777 can produce thrust almost three time of the engine in 767 (which is one generation older)

Well, in the world of Gundam, kg is the general unit used, even since the UC times.

And lol, yeah, but there were 12 YEARS of time difference between the 767 and the 777. WAY more than enough time to increase the thrust.

In GSD, however, the development of the Murasames and the GOUF is prolly only 6 -7 months apart. In fact, the difference in time of when the GOUFs and Murasames were first deployed, is. .. less than 3 months...

Originally Posted by coba

Well, Baba is an experienced pilot though (you can consider him as equl to ZAFT's red coat like Heine). Also, some of those pilots used Astrays which are older compared to Murasame.

Yes, the Murasames are used to replace the aging M1s. But ZAFT also still use outdated MS such as the GOOHNs and the GINNs.

Originally Posted by coba

Elijah Keil is a coordinator and former ZAFT red coat.

Really? Well, then Lowe Guele would be a better explanation. He developed the Red Frame to a level way beyond the standard capabilities. .

Originally Posted by coba

I believe I never claim that Strike Gundam was invented by ZAFT. In fact, contrary to what most people believe, the Strike is invented by the Orb's Morgenrete. The involvement of the AF in GAT project is limited to the role of paying for the development costs.

What they guy before me said.

Originally Posted by coba

I believe the info is kinda misleading. Someone in AF discover the Mirage Colloid particle (i.e it is likely already available in the nature). They don't know how to use it though. the first one who implement the Mirage Colloid particle to a technology is once again Orb's Morgenrete with the Blitz gundam.

Seriously, I don't even remember why we are talking about this.

At any rate, this only serves to prove that Orb can utilize their assets better than ZAFT.

Originally Posted by coba

The AF manage to be the one who first use it as energy barrier (in the Forbidden), but they figure it out after they receive the data from the Blitz.

Again, I don't remember how this point came out. All I know is that the Blitz was invented by Orb, who are therefore the best . .

Originally Posted by coba

Most of the variants only involve changing the armaments though. They don't really introduce any new tehcnology. ZAFT, on the other hand, introduce a lot of new technology such as the fastest spaceship (Nazca class), drop pods, etc.

The Forbidden, Raider, and Calamity all introduced new technology. And ZAFT may have intoduced all that, but by all means, the EA invented more useful stuff. I personally think that having many versatile MSes will give you a great advantage in combat, more so when compared to having the fastest spaceship .. .

Originally Posted by coba

Well, even a natural can be a genius (after all, we have Einstein, Nohr, etc.). The difference is that you likely have 1 genius out of 10 naturals while coordinators can have 6 out of 10.

Yes, and Orb apparently is the hotspot for all the geniuses, Natural or Coordinator, which makes them more effective.

Originally Posted by coba

That's That's because Dearka don't have a right to get Gouf. Gouf is reserved for red coat and commander.

Unlikely. The one who showed up in ep 39 were regular grunts and they were using GOUFs.. .

Originally Posted by coba

Luna, Rey and Heine used the ZAKUs in the first half of GSD bacuse that's the best ZAFT can offer. Only the Gundams (Impulse, Saviour, etc) are better than the Zaku. During the second half of it, most of them discard hteir Zakus. Luna gets Impulse, Rey Legend and even Yzak replaces his Slash Zaku Phantom to Gouf.

Maybe so, but Yzak only changed his mobile suit late after the GOUF was invented. In fact, he performed better with the Slash Zaku Phantom as it suited his hand-to-hand combat style more. Dearka also could have used it, but as his style was more of long-range fighting. the Blaze Zaku Phantom he used would be more suitable. This shows the weakness of the GOUF, it is practically hopeless in long-range battles.

Originally Posted by coba

Actually, the Lacus' technician do not change or add anything to the SF and IJ. It is clearly stated by the model kit that they plainly steal the blue print and build them as it is.

The latest model kit, the MG Infinite Justice claimed that the technicians stole the blueprint and added some extra stuff. The DRAGOONs in SF and the leg beam blade of the IJ are some of the add-ons.

Originally Posted by coba

For Freedom and Justice, ZAFT implements a lost of new technology. For example, they add the multi-lock targetting system (which can lock different targets at the same time) which is not simple to implement. Freedom has an improved HiMat while Justice gets a remote-controlled back pack

.

Multi-lock targeting system was really only an advanced version of a targeting system. It was not that hard to make, comparatively speaking.

Not improved, IT is the first of its kind, the Hi-MAT. The Justice's remote-controlled backpack is also not very useful.

Hell, those inventions did not really matter, what was unique about them was the N-Jammer Cancellers. That was why the EA had coveted them so, they had wanted to get that technology, not the armaments. .

Originally Posted by coba

Well that's what some coordinatord did in the GS. They migrate to Orb to get a safe place. However, in the end, even the Orb gets attacked (with significant civilian casualties). In addition, Erica Simmons (who hide her identity as coordinator) also mentioned on how racism toward the coordinator is also present in Orb (well we know Seiran is the culprit). These two factors (no guarantee living in peace as well as the surviving parlement is pro Seiran) make some coordinator return to Plant after the battle of GS end.

Yes, and before the Second Bloody Valentine war, when Orb was still neutral and Cagalli was the head, it was still a safer haven compared to PLANT. Especially when EA attacked them and after Operation Break the World..

Originally Posted by coba

The problem is that if you have enough personnels, you will at least have two people in charge of defensive and offensive. Just think about it, when the Orb is in the offensive stand (just like what happen near the end of GS), who will be in charge for the defense of the homeland ?

Technically speaking, nobody. Because in the case of GS, those forces that went to space were not Orb forces, they were two ships. The Orb forces at the start of GS had not planned to invade anybody and neither did they expect to invade anyone in GSD. Therefore, there was really no need for a separate military section which focused on planning for attacks.

Originally Posted by coba

Also, in both first and second battle of Orb, you can see that there are only few battleships (less than 12) defending Onogoro's island. If they do have a lot of battle ships, they should devote most of them to defend considering that they are being invaded.

There were ships around the perimeter of Orb, it is just not shown in the anime.

Originally Posted by coba

Actually, Yzak and dearka are indeed part of homeland defense. If they were placed there because nobody trusts them to fight in Earth, then they wouldn't be sent to attack the Requiem.

Yes they would. Because in Earth, they could do crimes against humanity. They can only kill their enemies in Requiem.

Originally Posted by coba

BTW, ZAFT did divide their forces into two properly. Minerva is mainly used for offensive purposes, while Gondwana (their giant super carrier that can bring hundreds of MS) for defensive purposes. Yzak is actually part of Gondwana's forces. Regarding the ace, ZAFT also have several aces for their space defense such as Yzak, Shiho, etc. In fact, I believe they put 60% of their forces toward their space defense since the ZAFT know how vulnarable the PLANT is.

I have to go, so I will reply for this later. . .

Okay, I am back. Well, no they didn't.

REQUIEM wouldn't have been able to fire had those aces of Minerva been there. As much as Yzak, Dearka, and Shiho are good aces, ZAFT did not bother to provide them with a decent enough mobile suit to do their job. They only provided them with MP MS, albeit an improved version.

The ZAFT people seem to think that quantity=quality, which is so wrong.

And at the battle of Heaven's Base, the offensive forces still had to be supported by a space drop. .

[lordyu]

Gundam official

GAT-X series

A line of prototype mobile suits developed by the Atlantic Federation, which bear the designation Gressorial Armament Tactical-eXperimental, the first word of which is a technical term that means "adapted for walking." The designations of the GAT-X machines indicate whether their structural frames are part of the basic X100 series, the specialized X200 series, or the transformable X300 series. These prototype machines are also referred to as Gundams, a nickname devised by Strike Gundam pilot Kira Yamato.

Phase Shift Armor
(PS Armor)



The most distinctive feature of the prototype Gundams developed by the Atlantic Federation. While active, this special armor nullifies all attacks by physical weapons, including blades, projectiles, and conventional explosives. However, it has no effect against beam and laser weapons, so most of the Gundams also carry shields treated with anti-beam coating. And because PS Armor consumes large amounts of energy, it cannot be used for extended periods lest it drain the mobile suit's energy battery.

PS Armor changes color upon activation. The Gundams which use this technology thus sport brilliant colors while in their Active Mode, and turn a dull gray when they switch to Deactive Mode.

Beam Saber



A new kind of melee weapon first employed by the Earth Alliance's prototype Gundams. The blade of the beam saber is formed using the same magnetic field generation technology that holds the Blitz Gundam's Mirage Colloid in place. After capturing four of the five prototype Gundams, ZAFT quickly duplicates the Alliance's beam saber technology and begins equipping its own mobile suits with these weapons as well.


Orb Union
MBF-P02
Gundam Astray Red Frame


A prototype mobile suit, or Main Battle Figure, developed by the Orb Union for its own national defense forces. Three Astray units were secretly produced at Heliopolis, using data and technology borrowed from the Earth Alliance's GAT-X series, but since its developers were unable to duplicate the Alliance's Phase Shift Armor they instead designed the Astray for light weight and high maneuverability. When Heliopolis is attacked by ZAFT forces, the Astray factory is destroyed to prevent detection, but this second prototype is salvaged by Lowe Guele of the Junk Guild. Due to the high energy consumption of the Astray's beam weapons, Lowe's preferred weapon is a huge samurai sword known as the Gerbera Straight. The Red Frame's OS allows it to be operated by Naturals.

Archangel

A custom-built mobile assault ship secretly constructed by the Atlantic Federation, one of the Earth Alliance's member nations, at the resource satellite Heliopolis. Designed to support the Atlantic Federation's prototype mobile suits, the Archangel is equipped with a variety of powerful weapons and experimental systems, including laminated armor that protects it from enemy beam weapons and ablative gel dispensers that allow it to survive atmospheric entry. Thanks to extensive automation, the Archangel can be operated even by a handful of crewmembers.

some knowledge

[Sander RX]

That's That's because Dearka don't have a right to get Gouf. Gouf is reserved for red coat and commander.

Whether he has or hasnt the right,doesnt change much.GOUF Ignited is close combat oriented Mobile Suit,which doesnt fit Dearkas long range style at all.Now Yzak on the other hand...

[PzIVf3]

Originally Posted by Sander RX

GOUF Ignited is close combat oriented Mobile Suit.

The GOUF is armed w/ 4 barrel beam gun its has fast cycle rate fire like a beam machine gun than the one per shot beam rifle. Its proven at the battle of Dardanelles how effective the 4 barrel against the Murasame.

[Paladinoras]

Originally Posted by PzIVf3

The GOUF is armed w/ 4 barrel beam gun its has fast cycle rate fire like a beam machine gun than the one per shot beam rifle. Its proven at the battle of Dardanelles how effective the 4 barrel against the Murasame.

And Infinite Justice had a beam rifle, which fires like a beam rifle and took out many people as well.

Yet it is deemed a close-combat mobile suit. . .

The Slash ZAKU Phantom also have a barrel beam machine gun. Still a melee suit.

Point is, a gun does not make a fighter a marksman.

The GOUF is a close-combat oriented mobile suit which has a beam machine-gun. Wow, big surprise there.

Close combat oriented =/= no beam rifle, geddit?

[PzIVf3]

[QUOTE=Paladinoras;2045087]

And Infinite Justice had a beam rifle, which fires like a beam rifle and took out many people as well.

Yet it is deemed a close-combat mobile suit. . .

Its medium range combat. If you say close combat its a hand to hand combat.

The Slash ZAKU Phantom also have a barrel beam machine gun. Still a melee suit.

The Twinheavy gatling beam gun its only suitable in space not in Earth.

Point is, a gun does not make a fighter a marksman.

The GOUF is a close-combat oriented mobile suit which has a beam machine-gun. Wow, big surprise there.

Close combat oriented =/= no beam rifle, geddit?

When you using a rifle against the fast firing machine gunner which is more advantage? The machine gun is not a close range combat its a medium range combat, geddit?

[Paladinoras]

[QUOTE=PzIVf3;2046044][QUOTE=Paladinoras;2045087]

Originally Posted by PzIVf3

[Its medium range combat. If you say close combat its a hand to hand combat.

The lack of common sense in your answer astounds me. .

Infinite Justice a medium-range mobile suit? LOL

Get your facts straight

Originally Posted by PzIVf3

[The Twinheavy gatling beam gun its only suitable in space not in Earth.

So??? How does this apply to this argument? You said that the GOUF has a beam machine gun, the Slash Zaku Phantom also has the gatling beam gun. Irregardless of where it can be used, the Slash Zaku Phantom is still a melee mobile suit. Even with that thing.

Like the GOUF.

Originally Posted by PzIVf3

[When you using a rifle against the fast firing machine gunner which is more advantage? The machine gun is not a close range combat its a medium range combat, geddit?

Rifle obviously, it has a longer range nd is more powerful.

And no, medium range MS are MS like Freedom.

Not the GOUF. If you had actually watched GSD, you would have seen that the machine gun is practically useless for long-range.

Put it this way, you don't call someone with an Uzi to be a sniper. . .

[PzIVf3]

[QUOTE=Paladinoras;2046133][QUOTE=PzIVf3;2046044][QUOTE=Paladinoras;2045087]

The lack of common sense in your answer astounds me. .

Infinite Justice a medium-range mobile suit? LOL

Get your facts straight

Because you lack of military sense.

So??? How does this apply to this argument? You said that the GOUF has a beam machine gun, the Slash Zaku Phantom also has the gatling beam gun. Irregardless of where it can be used, the Slash Zaku Phantom is still a melee mobile suit. Even with that thing.

Like the GOUF.

The Heavy Gatling Gun back pack of Zaku Phantom has less maneuverability due its weight and only for use on space. The Gouf beam gun its on a forearm its very easy to handle and intended to use both Earth and Space.

Rifle obviously, it has a longer range nd is more powerful.

Can u see the enemy very far of your naked eye without using the scope?

Not the GOUF. If you had actually watched GSD, you would have seen that the machine gun is practically useless for long-range.

Bec. they use so many replay footage.

[blitz1/2]

[QUOTE=PzIVf3;2046044]

Originally Posted by Paladinoras

Its medium range combat. If you say close combat its a hand to hand combat.



The Twinheavy gatling beam gun its only suitable in space not in Earth.



When you using a rifle against the fast firing machine gunner which is more advantage? The machine gun is not a close range combat its a medium range combat, geddit?

I say beam machine gun is close range, it's basically a beam vulcan. Vulcans are close range use. I mean you wouldn't use vulcans for mid to long range.

I say close range is anything below 250 m within combat range. The Gouf has a heat rod, which is also a close range weapon.

[PzIVf3]

[QUOTE=blitz1/2;2046191]

Originally Posted by PzIVf3

I say beam machine gun is close range, it's basically a beam vulcan. Vulcans are close range use. I mean you wouldn't use vulcans for mid to long range.

I say close range is anything below 150 m within combat range. The Gouf has a heat rod, which is also a close range weapon.

You wouldn't say M-2 machine gun a close range instead of medium range that has a maximum range of 7.4 kilometers (4.55 miles).

[blitz1/2]

[QUOTE=PzIVf3;2046196]

Originally Posted by blitz1/2

You wouldn't say M-2 machine gun a close range instead of medium range that has a maximum range of 7.4 kilometers (4.55 miles).

Lol, that's almost a sniper!

But in terms of weaponry, wouldn't the beam machine gun shots quickly dissapate? The vulcans just don't work, hard to explain.

[Rising Dragon]

Ladies, I don't see the point of discussing the GOUF Ignited's capabilities when it comes to the Second Battle of ORB. Either take it to the general technology thread or shut up about it entirely.

[PzIVf3]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Ladies, I don't see the point of discussing the GOUF Ignited's capabilities when it comes to the Second Battle of ORB. Either take it to the general technology thread or shut up about it entirely.

Well one of here (except biltz) doesn't understand the difference of the Gouf beam machine gun and the Murasame beam rifle it show the battle at Dardanalles prove effective against the slow Murasame one per shot beam rifle. And He/she put too many pointless excuse on other M.S.

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by PzIVf3

Well one of here (except biltz) doesn't understand the difference of the Gouf beam machine gun and the Murasame beam rifle it show the battle at Dardanalles prove effective against the slow Murasame one per shot beam rifle. And He/she put too many pointless excuse on other M.S.

And the battle at Dardanelles wasn't the Second Battle of ORB. So it still doesn't matter.

[PzIVf3]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

And the battle at Dardanelles wasn't the Second Battle of ORB. So it still doesn't matter.

It does matter. Its proves a single Gouf w/ Ace pilot against the squadron unexperienced pilot Murasame.
Now they have battalion of Gouf and more Zaft M.S. sea and air at the 2nd battle of Orb which have more disadvantage of the Murasame Orb defense force and pilot who doesn't have experienced major war. The only experienced is the small survivor from the Dardanalles.