Mai Otome 0 ~S.ifr~ Episode 3 Discussion / Poll

[Tak]

Originally Posted by LonelyWolf

Where was it mentioned that Alyssa (Rena's ancestor) is a replica HiME?

Er, in Mai-Hime?

- Tak

[LonelyWolf]

Originally Posted by Tak

Er, in Mai-Hime?

- Tak

Ofc, I should've been more precise: in the Otome series.

Edit: so if it wasn't I'll assume she wasn't a replica at all. If the two series were indeed 100% linked (immigration era etc blabla) then I don't see why it wasn't said so somewhere, concretely, by the makers.

To me it's a half-assed attempt that was made to create the Otome universe. Using the HiME series as a jumping-off point.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by LonelyWolf

Ofc, I should've been more precise: in the Otome series.

Its quite obvious to me that Alicia remained a replica when Miyu referred to Mikoto as a HiME, capable of materializing naturally (never mind that she has the HiME mark while Rena does not), which is different than Rena, who required the Artemis system, an artificial construct based on the technology that gave HiME their powers.

Since Miyu came from a line of production which also spawned the M9 series, its not really difficult to guess that the Sayers family was responsible for a lot of technologies used in the Otome universe, including the powers held by Otome themselves.

Also note that while child is referenced in Otome, they were never considered to be artificial constructs the way robes were. So yes, Alicia was a replica of the HiME technology, except while the Otome cannot communicate with Artemis directly, Rena and Miyu both could, being directly related to the Sayers and all. Mikoto on the other hand, draws her powers from elsewhere.

- Tak

[LonelyWolf]

It's all speculation.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by LonelyWolf

It's all speculation.

One based on facts.

Of course, you can always prove otherwise.

- Tak

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Mermer

Oh, and as for the Spanish Inquisition from Bruce, well, if you were master to an otome that awesome, would you want some dude coming along and neutralizing her nanomachines?

Oh trust me, if I see a girl I'm used to hanging around with almost every moment of my live act like that with a guy she only just met, Nanomachines will be the last thing on my mind when I hold him at gun-point.

Originally Posted by Amaiko

And right about there is where the OVA threw a huuuuuge monkey wrench back into the face of the original series:

Spoiler:

Namely: why the hell didn't Rena's HiME powers manifest to try to protect herself and her loved ones during the castle invasion at the beginning of Otome?

The Sifr OVAs make a pretty strong implied case that the reason Rena is so damn powerful is because she's descended from Alyssa and her bloodline HiME powers are augmenting her Otome powers. In fact, Rena's bloodline powers are so powerful she's got a mysterious mark (which her daughter doesn't) and she burns through Meister GEMs as if they are nothing (which her daughter, likewise, doesn't). And now we've got a scene where she not only (unconsciously?) manifests what looks like a CHILD under battle conditions and stress, she's able to access Artemis by using her GEM as a medium and gain a special robe with even more power--without getting Bruce's certification to boot.

So, uh, why didn't Rena use any of this to save the castle when she and her loved ones were being slaughtered in Otome?

Her bloodline HiME powers shouldn't be dependent on whether she's an Otome or not: the whole point of the HiME is that they do naturally what the Otome do artificially. Her HiME power has probably been masked by her Otome powers and also suppressed because of her fear of her own strength: Rena would probably be powerful even if she had never become an Otome. So why, again, doesn't any of this power show up when she needs it the most? In fact, wouldn't such a power be even more likely to manifest under such dangerous and stressful conditions as an invasion and when Rena no longer has her Otome power to defend her and her friends? But there isn't a glimmer of it.

Because Otome was written before S.ifr, obviously they hadn't taken this into account yet. But the point is minor, because who says she didn't use it? I can't recall seeing the battle between the cyborg squad and Rena in Otome, so this is a very easy retcon. Might also explain why Shiro isn't around anymore, the death of a Child takes away ones most precious person after all.

Originally Posted by Amaiko

On another note: Miyu looked sad/resigned and closed her eyes when she saw Rena start to summon Artemis. Why?

Memories of Alyssa, maybe?

Originally Posted by LonelyWolf

It's all speculation.

We have the golden hair, Miyu, Rena's Sears-like Hime mark, Artemis, plenty of evidence really.

On the flipside, what proof is there that points the oposite? Do we have any proof that Alyssa isn't a replica Hime? If none is present, then it really becomes a moot point to say she isn't.

[Scarlet Letter]

It isn't Rena Sayers, it is Lena Sayers ( if you look at her Gem when she is materializing is says " connecting to L.S", remember the Japanese pronounce L like R)

Spoiler:

I'm gonna go ahead and say it, I mentioned it in the other thread - I'm almost convinced that Mashiro and Nagi are related. Sakura and her master resemble the two of them so much. Her master's wearing what looks a lot like Nagi's Artai cloak, Sakura's eye color matches his, and then there's the master's uncanny resemblance to Mashiro. I also believe another OVA, exploring this aspect of the story, might be on the way.

I think if this was true, Nagi would know, since he clearly knows things other characters do not. Also, Nagi's hair is ultramarine, where does this come from?

Spoiler:

I think when Mashiro was taken to replace Nina in Mai Otome, Nagi was used to replace Mashiro in Artai. That could explain that Mashiro was kidnapped at a young age and taken to Windbloom, while someone replaced her with Nagi.

Spoiler:

The Sifr OVAs make a pretty strong implied case that the reason Rena is so damn powerful is because she's descended from Alyssa and her bloodline HiME powers are augmenting her Otome powers. In fact, Rena's bloodline powers are so powerful she's got a mysterious mark (which her daughter doesn't) and she burns through Meister GEMs as if they are nothing (which her daughter, likewise, doesn't). And now we've got a scene where she not only (unconsciously?) manifests what looks like a CHILD under battle conditions and stress, she's able to access Artemis by using her GEM as a medium and gain a special robe with even more power--without getting Bruce's certification to boot.

True, but in Mai Otome, Arika starts floating in the air without nano-machines. Also, in her battle versus Nina the first time, she breaks her robe holding up the ship. We can assume if she was wearing the Blue Sky Sapphire at the time, she would have no problem holding it. Also, Bruce doesn't need to, since :

Spoiler:

Artemis apparently hacks the system and acts as a master

Spoiler:

Namely: why the hell didn't Rena's HiME powers manifest to try to protect herself and her loved ones during the castle invasion at the beginning of Otome?

Spoiler for Lena Sayers":

Also, we knew that Lena has some aspect of a HiME's power. You know how HIMEs materialized elements, just like Otome could in the form of their individual weapons? Well, the gems are mediums to materialize everything for an Otome, so it probably acted as medium to manifest Lena's powers as an HiME via Otome powers.


Also, notice in Mai HiME, Mai's mother is Lena. This just messes everything up.

Spoiler for Shiro in the beginning of Mai Otome:

Reito is his younger brother, and in Mai Otome he is a cyborg because of some disease. We can assume, since they are related, Shiro died of this disease.

Spoiler:

Her bloodline HiME powers shouldn't be dependent on whether she's an Otome or not: the whole point of the HiME is that they do naturally what the Otome do artificially. Her HiME power has probably been masked by her Otome powers and also suppressed because of her fear of her own strength: Rena would probably be powerful even if she had never become an Otome. So why, again, doesn't any of this power show up when she needs it the most? In fact, wouldn't such a power be even more likely to manifest under such dangerous and stressful conditions as an invasion and when Rena no longer has her Otome power to defend her and her friends? But there isn't a glimmer of it.

Spoiler:

You know how they said the birthmark got darker as she grew more powerful as an Otome? And in Mai HiME, where they're birthmark's disappear at the end? I'm going to say that her loosing her Otome powers also took away her birthmark. Also, as generations passed, the bloodline of her hime aspect must have dimmed. Just like as it passes to Arika she still has some aspect of it, but not as much as Lena did.
Also, maybe if she was still holding onto the Blue Sky Sapphire when she fought Reito, maybe she could have channeled some it's power from it just because she is part HiME.


Mikoto is the only real HiME, since her birthmark is the same and she can beat the crap out of everyone.

[Sakuya]

Originally Posted by Scarlet Letter

Spoiler for Lena Sayers":

Also, notice in Mai HiME, Mai's mother is Lena. This just messes everything up.

What? Where'd you get that? From what I could remember, they looked nothing alike.

[Scarlet Letter]

In one of Mai's flashbacks, in a photo, you see her mother.

[Sakuya]

Originally Posted by Scarlet Letter

In one of Mai's flashbacks, in a photo, you see her mother.

And this was in Mai HiME you say? Because there her mother had no black hair... If you could post a pic, that'd be great since I have no access to any episodes anymore.

[Scarlet Letter]

Actually, scratch that. Not true, don't know where that idea came from.

Sorry. ^_^'

[Atlantis_Lux]

Originally Posted by Scarlet Letter

I think if this was true, Nagi would know, since he clearly knows things other characters do not. Also, Nagi's hair is ultramarine, where does this come from?

Spoiler:

I think when Mashiro was taken to replace Nina in Mai Otome, Nagi was used to replace Mashiro in Artai. That could explain that Mashiro was kidnapped at a young age and taken to Windbloom, while someone replaced her with Nagi.

Spoiler for :

Well, for the hair color we can pretty much say that not all the children bear the same parent's hair color. Also, if they had given Sakura ultramarine hair color that would have ruined the surprise in the end. And beside Sakura's eyes and her Master's voice, his playful attitude reminds actually a lot of Nagi.
I agree that Nagi should have known if Mashiro was his sister/related or just someone part of the plan (and he would have informed her too), but I suppose they can't retcon everything, and the existence of their "parents" was not something planned from the very start of the series.
That's why a new one would be that interesting. I'm just too curious to know how they'd tie up everything maintaining a slight resemblance of continuity. Somewhat

[Sakuya]

By the way, can anyone who knows Japanese pinpoint what Raquel's attack is? I know the second word is "Canon" but what's the first one?

[Same_Shark]

Originally Posted by Sakuya

By the way, can anyone who knows Japanese pinpoint what Raquel's attack is? I know the second word is "Canon" but what's the first one?

I believe it's "Chiichiki Cannon", but I'm not too sure.

[starCHILDE]

I just watched the last OVA. Great ending for S.ifr, but they left me wanting to see more of these group of Otome. Rena is so amazing!! BTW I think the girl in the bandages is Mikoto, she's about the right height and she has a similar body.

Does somebody know if they've announced more OVAs or something like that?

[Same_Shark]

Originally Posted by starCHILDE

I just watched the last OVA. Great ending for S.ifr, but they left me wanting to see more of these group of Otome. Rena is so amazing!! BTW I think the girl in the bandages is Mikoto, she's about the right height and she has a similar body.

Does somebody know if they've announced more OVAs or something like that?

Hisayuki-sensei announced that he was gonna take a break after S.ifr for a bit, so not yet. The HiME/Otome animation team is currently working on Sora wo Kakeru Shoujo.

[Amaiko]

Originally Posted by Keroko

Spoiler:

Because Otome was written before S.ifr, obviously they hadn't taken this into account yet. But the point is minor, because who says she didn't use it? I can't recall seeing the battle between the cyborg squad and Rena in Otome, so this is a very easy retcon. Might also explain why Shiro isn't around anymore, the death of a Child takes away ones most precious person after all.

Sorry, but considering that Sifr shows us over and over again how insanely freaking powerful Rena is, to the point that:

Spoiler:

her possible Child was able to hold off M-9 until she regained consciousness and M-9 was an enemy who was only killed after Rena piledrived her into Earl from several thousand miles above in space I have a really hard time seeing how anything short of Yuna would be capable of taking out Rena's Child. This woman practically eats Meister GEMs for breakfast and she's only sixteen: think of how powerful she'll probably become once she has a few more years of experience under her belt.

Unless Sunrise decides to whip out yet another "battle Garderobe kept secret during an era noted for peace" to show Rena's Child being killed in battle prior to the beginning of Otome (which, for the reasons I outline above, would strain credubility to the breaking point), I'm still keeping this one as a potential plot hole.

And who's to say that Shiro was or ever is Rena's "most precious person"? If that was a Child she manifested against M-9 there, I seriously doubt that Shiro was her "most precious person" because at that point she'd known him for all of a day and a half. Not only that, if he is Arika's father, she waited over ten years to get together with him, which doesn't exactly scream out that Shiro was the most important person to her: I'd put Bruce and Sifr far higher on Rena's personal "most precious" scale than him. Remember that Rena is insanely dutiful: this was the woman who put Nina's life ahead of her own daughter's even though she was no longer the official Otome for Windbloom.

I have a really hard time seeing Rena making anyone more precious to her than her "masters", since she couldn't even do that with her own daughter.

Memories of Alyssa, maybe?

Good point.

Originally Posted by Scarlet Letter

It isn't Rena Sayers, it is Lena Sayers ( if you look at her Gem when she is materializing is says " connecting to L.S", remember the Japanese pronounce L like R)

I've also see the Japanese use "Oh hory night" for "Oh holy night" and "Blookryn" for "Brooklyn", (and let's not forget "Materiarise" from the first episode of Otome) so I tend to take any Japanese spellings with a huge grain of salt. Since both "Lena" and "Rena" are actual names, it's hard to tell which one is actually "correct", "evidence" aside.

True, but in Mai Otome, Arika starts floating in the air without nano-machines.

I've always taken that scene as evidence that the whole "sperm destroys nanomachines!" thing isn't exactly true: it renders Otome powerless, but because it changes the nanomachines into something different, not destroys them entirely and that bit was at least partially due to Arika being the child of a former Otome: Rena somehow passed the "altered" nanomachines down to her child. That would also explain Yohko's comment about how well Arika was adjusting to the nanomachines, unlike some of the other girls, and also the whole Shinso thing, since only an Otome who has given birth can be one.

We can assume if she was wearing the Blue Sky Sapphire at the time, she would have no problem holding it.

Maybe, and maybe not. Remember how John Smith mocked her in episode 16 or 17, saying that Arika hadn't even unlocked the full power of the robe and that she was basically using it on it's lowest setting? Then again, Rena's body being captive might have also had something to do with that, because of Miyu's comment about Rena's soul finally being set free after Arika destroyed the Valkyrie crypt. You could probably make it go either way.

Spoiler:

Artemis apparently hacks the system and acts as a master

Spoiler:

Or that Rena chose to have Artemis manifest itself in that way (instead of say, how Alyssa used it), since a robe was what was most comfortable and familiar to her. The point is, by using Artemis, Rena could have set herself free from the whole "master" angle of the Otome system, since a second party was no longer necessary for her to use her powers. She could have been Earl's equivalent of Superman, a one-woman fighting force for justice, which would have been awesome. Unfortunately, that's not what happened.

Spoiler:

You know how they said the birthmark got darker as she grew more powerful as an Otome? And in Mai HiME, where they're birthmark's disappear at the end? I'm going to say that her loosing her Otome powers also took away her birthmark.

Spoiler:

It could have also been getting darker because she was getting older and more powerful, and as I said in my original post, her Otome powers were probably masking her HiME ones. She likely didn't realise that it wasn't due to her Otome powers getting stronger, but the HiME ones getting stronger.

The birthmark disappearing at the end of HiME was more likely due to the carnival's end with the destruction of the HiME star and Obsidian Lord; without them, there's no need for HiME.

Spoiler:

Also, as generations passed, the bloodline of her hime aspect must have dimmed. Just like as it passes to Arika she still has some aspect of it, but not as much as Lena did.

Spoiler:

It's been said already, but I completely agree with it: I really think Sunrise dropped the ball here by making Rena so overpowered and especially so overpowered compared to Arika. You don't get that kind of diluation within one generation and while Arika is clearly supposed to be something of a powerhouse, she is leagues and leagues below her mother power-wise. While Arika could easily catch up to Rena in terms of combat ability and techniques through practice and experience, she will never equal her mother in terms of power. Rena was breaking GEMs on a regular basis before she found the BSS, which Arika never has (remember that Rena burned through her Coral GEM in a month: Arika never showed any signs of anything like that) and now we have Rena manifesting incredibly strong HiME powers as well, with Arika never showing a single sign of the above before getting the BSS and only then with the "glowing golden hair" bit.

Sifr really sent the whole balance of power out of whack and I don't think it was such a good idea.

Spoiler:

Also, maybe if she was still holding onto the Blue Sky Sapphire when she fought Reito, maybe she could have channeled some it's power from it just because she is part HiME.

Spoiler:

She did have access to the BSS when Reito attacked: we're clearly shown in the flashback that she was just about to leave with Nina when Reito broke down the door. If she had used the BSS, I think that not only would the castle room been a smoking crator, but Reito would have had at least some damage visible when we see him later. He doesn't. And if Rena knew she could use the BSS as a medium to amplify her HiME powers, she would have done so; she was fighting for both her princess's and her daughter's lives. As I stated above, I'm still calling this a potential plothole.

[starCHILDE]

I don't know why people are assuming that the fact that Arika is Lena's daughter gives her nearly infinite power like her mother's. It's not like you get to be an excellent surgeon if your mother is one. Did Sunrise specify in any episode that those powers (HiME or Otome) are genetic? If they didn't, I can understand Arika being so powerful, since she's using a Super Meister Gem like the BSS, but not being the powerhouse her mother is because she doesn't have that kind of power (HiMe power or whatever).

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Amaiko

I have a really hard time seeing how anything short of Yuna would be capable of taking out Rena's Child. This woman practically eats Meister GEMs for breakfast and she's only sixteen:

Sorry, but who is 'Yuna'? Or do you mean Una, the headmaster?

Although I am quite certain Fumi exercised similar, if not greater abilities.

Originally Posted by Amaiko

Unless Sunrise decides to whip out yet another "battle Garderobe kept secret during an era noted for peace" to show Rena's Child being killed in battle prior to the beginning of Otome (which, for the reasons I outline above, would strain credubility to the breaking point), I'm still keeping this one as a potential plot hole.

Have we confirmed that Rena has a child? Artificial or not? I recall in Zwei that the Otome were quite astonished to see their enemies being almost childlike. Therefore, I can only conclude that nobody yet seen a real child, of if they have, they would have made references to it.

Originally Posted by Amaiko

I have a really hard time seeing Rena making anyone more precious to her than her "masters", since she couldn't even do that with her own daughter.

Yes, I actually would like to know more about just what happened in the palace during the attack that night. Although it might be possible that Arika was already sent away.

Originally Posted by Amaiko

I've also see the Japanese use "Oh hory night" for "Oh holy night" and "Blookryn" for "Brooklyn", (and let's not forget "Materiarise" from the first episode of Otome) so I tend to take any Japanese spellings with a huge grain of salt. Since both "Lena" and "Rena" are actual names, it's hard to tell which one is actually "correct", "evidence" aside.

I watched mostly the raw versions, so yes, I do agree. I can care less about the official Romanization of the names. It won't matter the slightest bit to Japanese audiences.

Originally Posted by Amaiko

I've always taken that scene as evidence that the whole "sperm destroys nanomachines!" thing isn't exactly true: it renders Otome powerless, but because it changes the nanomachines into something different, not destroys them entirely and that bit was at least partially due to Arika being the child of a former Otome: Rena somehow passed the "altered" nanomachines down to her child. That would also explain Yohko's comment about how well Arika was adjusting to the nanomachines, unlike some of the other girls, and also the whole Shinso thing, since only an Otome who has given birth can be one.

That always got me thinking, I wonder who descended from Fumi.

Originally Posted by Amaiko

It could have also been getting darker because she was getting older and more powerful, and as I said in my original post, her Otome powers were probably masking her HiME ones. She likely didn't realise that it wasn't due to her Otome powers getting stronger, but the HiME ones getting stronger.

Yet, regardless of the similarities, she was no HiME. The only HiME in Otome was Mikoto. No matter how powerful Rena was, no matter how close she was to being a HiME, she was not HiME due to the simple fact that Alyssa came from a line of replicas. And I wonder how she'd match against Mikoto.

Originally Posted by Amaiko

[spoiler]It's been said already, but I completely agree with it: I really think Sunrise dropped the ball here by making Rena so overpowered and especially so overpowered compared to Arika. You don't get that kind of diluation within one generation and while Arika is clearly supposed to be something of a powerhouse, she is leagues and leagues below her mother power-wise.

Well, I take it more or less as Rena being a mutant, a freak of nature where that particular portion of her genes manifested more so than Arika's. It was more or less a random occurrence than something that could not have been calculated or predicted. After all, who are we to say that Rena's mother was an Otome (or anything close to being one?)?

Again, too many questions, too few answers. Hopefully, this will initiate the next Otome TV series. After how Nadesico turned out, I am still unhappy with the results.

- Tak

[Sakuya]

Originally Posted by Tak

Sorry, but who is 'Yuna'? Or do you mean Una, the headmaster?

I believe Yuna was the alien thing in Zwei.