Mobile Suit Gundam 00 Second Season - Episode 12 Discussion / Poll

[ttdestroy]

Originally Posted by nutype

After it's all said and done none of us will ever get an explanation about GN particles how it enables the science of the impossible.

Isn't it obvious, gn particles are "magic". Magic makes everthing possible lol ok j/k

Anyway I have to agree with you I don't think there is a coherent explanation of GN particles, well there may be one but it's more complicated than the Metal Gear Solid storylines...

[U<3Anime]

Originally Posted by StratoSpear

Well umm.... It might get boring to see the same tricks all over again so.... Why not some new tricks?


Goes to show how creative the producers are to come up with several scenarios instead of pure stock-footage spams.

Word, better than seeing GSD jesus yamato or the whole cast for matter(yes including shin and his gang), spamming the the same shit over and over and over again to the point where it becomes predictable. Seriously, it's like watching a turned based rpg being played out, ya know like G Gen or SRW.

[Celestial]

Originally Posted by U<3Anime

Word, better than seeing GSD jesus yamato or the whole cast for matter(yes including shin and his gang), spamming the the same shit over and over and over again to the point where it becomes predictable. Seriously, it's like watching a turned based rpg being played out, ya know like G Gen or SRW.

Or worse.

At least we see some variety in such games.

Destiny was like... Kamen Rider Kiva.

New stuff are used for one or two episodes and... that's it, the new features will never be heard from again.

[LoweGear]

Originally Posted by The Small One

Actually, after seeing in the recent episodes how many people CB has, just in one of it's bases, I have to disagree... there is nothing, they could gain from cooperation with Kataron, they didn't seem to already have.

Actually they do - combat personnel. Only the Ptolemy and the Gundam Meisters are combat-capable amongst the members of Celestial Being, not to mention the limited hardware.

Katharon may not have much in terms of tech, but they still outnumber Celestial Being in terms of actual combat-capable personnel and mecha that they field.

[LoweGear]

Originally Posted by The Small One

Just because we haven't seen combat capable persons bessides the meisters, it doesn't mean, that they don't have them!
Besides: The 4 Gundams were enough to deal with every problem up till now, so why should they change it? Quality is better than quantity.

And yet need to wonder why they don't produce more combat units then if they have more combat-capable personnel - afterall, they have shown that they are capable of producing combat units and mobile suits that don't run off GN Drives (i.e. O-Raiser and GN Archer). Also, they have had 4 years to train new Meisters to pilot the Gundams... so why didn't they?

Also, support personnel always outnumber combat personnel in an organization by a large margin - sometimes by as many as 1 is to 8 - due to the demanding nature of logistics. Given how even the asteroid base's population wasn't that large (they were able to fit most of them into just 3 shuttles afterall), then it's easy enough to assume that most of the other CB members weren't meant to be in combat. The revelation of extra members in CB (which shouldn't even be a surprise) still doesn't change the oft-stated fact that in terms of field combat capability, Celestial Being is still seriously undermanned. Heck, the officially stated reason that Haros were created was to augment Celestial Being's human workforce because of CB's limited number of personnel.

[grey_moon]

Wouldn't CB joining Katharon be going against CB's core ideals? The more soldiers that are in the field the greater the conflict spreads.

[LoweGear]

Originally Posted by grey_moon

Wouldn't CB joining Katharon be going against CB's core ideals? The more soldiers that are in the field the greater the conflict spreads.

Depends... Katharon's goals are somewhat advantageous to CB as well. An alliance would most likely be of convenience rather than any real alliance, but still as long as CB accomplishes its goals why not?

Also, Katharon and CB are supposed to work together next episode against the Memento Mori...

[StratoSpear]

Originally Posted by LoweGear

Also, Katharon and CB are supposed to work together next episode against the Memento Mori...

Really? But I thought Kataron already jumped the gun and got their ass Memento Mori-ed...?

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by StratoSpear

Really? But I thought Kataron already jumped the gun and got their ass Memento Mori-ed...?

They lost one half of the second space fleet. If both fleets consist of their entire space forces, then they only lost roughly 1/4 of their entire space force.

[SeedFreedom]

Originally Posted by grey_moon

Wouldn't CB joining Katharon be going against CB's core ideals? The more soldiers that are in the field the greater the conflict spreads.

I would say it would be much more likely for Kataron to jump and become part of CB. They would give up the goal of taking out the federation and aim only at A-Laws

[console65]

Originally Posted by SeedFreedom

I would say it would be much more likely for Kataron to jump and become part of CB. They would give up the goal of taking out the federation and aim only at A-Laws

That sounds more likely. An united world is great and all if the right people are leading it. I see them join CB to get rid of just A-Laws as well.

I'm also sick of them having those old suits. It's time for some GN Drives. I'm sick of looking at GN-XIIIs and Aheads. I want the staff to design some new suits for Kataron that have GN Drives. I know they won't be able to mass produce but atleast give them some high end prototypes that they could be working on. Kind of like their own version of Gundams. They DO have a whole bunch of engineers from all 3 former power blocks. Put them all in a room, let them do creative designs, and produce a few GN Drive powered suits with the limited resources the have and give them to their aces. I vote for Klaus to be one of them!

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by RDFMASTER

This gundam series is base more in reality that any others gundam series. It is the closest one to ourselves.

No, not really. While Gundam 00 is more realistic in some ways (particularly the original setting), it's also one of the most unrealistic in many other ways. The only Gundam shows that have much of a claim to realism would be Mobile Suit Gundam, and even there, you'd have to ignore all that newtype stuff. In terms of geopolitical developments, Gundam 00 is one of the least realistic.

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

Yes, but your right to an opinion doesn't change the fact that stupid people come up with idiotic opinions.

PS You're not clever trying to insult me by bolding words in my post. How about you accept what you said didn't really make much sense, or you disprove my point instead of personally attacking me?

Take it easy. Nobody's been personally attacking you so far, so keep the insults down on your part as well.

As far as idiotic opinions go, Memento Mori's defences are entirely a matter of speculation, so there isn't any right or wrong assumption to make about it. Historically, Gundam superweapons don't have the greatest defences in the world, so there's nothing inherently wrong with thinking that the same may apply to Memento Mori. If we confine ourselves to just Gundam 00, often the supposedly excellently protected targets are underwhelming when we actually see them (and for that matter, the same goes for tactics and strategies), so it's hardly an unfair position to think that it'll be much the same with Memento Mori.

Originally Posted by Killer Tomato

Hasn't happened for quite a while in Gundam series. Unless it's something like 08th MS team. There's always something new. No new tech = dead CB. So it's pretty reasonable. Since they don't have immortal pilots that can down entire armies in 1 strike.

I can't agree with that. Either a plot device works on its own or it doesn't. Saying that it's reasonable because the story itself would fail otherwise doesn't seem like much of an excuse to me.

And for that matter, while the pulling-tricks-out-of-one's-butt technique is a staple for Gundam shows, it's hardly the only technique that's been used (even recently). and it's not exactly unfair to say that Gundam 00 should aspire to something better.

Originally Posted by Demongod86

It's becoming cheap that CB constantly gets...rather than plothax and plot armor...for a more relevant term with our times...

PLOT BAILOUTS

And in this case, the innovators LITERALLY get them! An utter FIRST in Gundam!

You're a little off about how the progression goes. With a few variations, it is:

1. Gundams show off to impress the audience with how powerful they are.
2. Bad guys get a power up and show off by either beating up on some cannon fodder, or by blowing away the Gundams (but never to the extent of causing any real damage!).
3. Gundams get a power up and go back to stage 1.

This progression is especially blatant in the way the Garazzo showed up and attacked for no reason whatsoever.

Originally Posted by StratoSpear

Well umm.... It might get boring to see the same tricks all over again so.... Why not some new tricks?


Goes to show how creative the producers are to come up with several scenarios instead of pure stock-footage spams.

There's a big difference in new tricks that are either based on the creativity of the characters or employing trusted tactics and new tricks that are based entirely on brand new gimmicks. The latter is what's happening a lot, and it's not exactly a hallmark of good writing.

Originally Posted by ttdestroy

Isn't it obvious, gn particles are "magic". Magic makes everthing possible lol ok j/k

The really funny thing is that this is exactly how the creators have been treating the GN particles.

Originally Posted by The Small One

Besides: The 4 Gundams were enough to deal with every problem up till now, so why should they change it? Quality is better than quantity.

It's actually the other way around. The lack of numbers in Celestial Being is severely limiting the scope of their activities, and it's a big threat to their operations. Imagine if the A-LAWS had attacked the asteroid base at a time when Celestial Being wasn't conveniently in port: they would have all died, the Gundams would have been toast afterward.

Originally Posted by LoweGear

And yet need to wonder why they don't produce more combat units then if they have more combat-capable personnel - afterall, they have shown that they are capable of producing combat units and mobile suits that don't run off GN Drives (i.e. O-Raiser and GN Archer). Also, they have had 4 years to train new Meisters to pilot the Gundams... so why didn't they?

That's actually a very good question - why the heck wouldn't they try to build some redundancy into their combat arm? It can't be a lack of resources since they seemed to have no trouble building new mobile suits and warships. It can't be a lack of personnel since they have no stigma against recruiting semi-random people. It can't even be a matter of secrecy since they've drawn from family of current members. I can't think of a good reason for them to not recruit more.


On the possibility of a Kataron-Celestial Being alliance, there's a bunch of cons that go with it. It's questionable if Celestial Being wants to be publicly associated with Kataron since the latter seems to be insinuated in a number of terrorist attacks and are seen as a legitimate threat to the rest of the world. And for that matter, the goals of the two organizations don't necessarily mesh all that well; and there would be questions about who the leaders are (who the heck is leading Celestial Being right now anyways?), and security and the like.

Originally Posted by console65

While Kataron seems to be extremely accomodating to whatever Celestial Being wants, I'm pretty sure that they would object to being referred to by such a silly name !I'm also sick of them having those old suits. It's time for some GN Drives. I'm sick of looking at GN-XIIIs and Aheads. I want the staff to design some new suits for Kataron that have GN Drives. I know they won't be able to mass produce but atleast give them some high end prototypes that they could be working on. Kind of like their own version of Gundams. They DO have a whole bunch of engineers from all 3 former power blocks. Put them all in a room, let them do creative designs, and produce a few GN Drive powered suits with the limited resources the have and give them to their aces. I vote for Klaus to be one of them!

That's not going to happen. The central conceit of the original GN drives is that they have to be produced in Jupiter's gravitational field; and that the production process is extremely arduous. Jupiter is far enough away, and Gundam 00 space travel is slow enough that travel there and back would take enormous resources and probably a couple of years to pull off. Besides, not being unique will draw away from the mystique of Celestial Being's Gundams.

[Eej]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

This progression is especially blatant in the way the Garazzo showed up and attacked for no reason whatsoever.

Garazzo appeared to intimidate Celestial Being and show them that not only does A-LAWS know exactly where they are, but they have mobile suits superior to them.

[Galerian]

Originally Posted by Eej

Garazzo appeared to intimidate Celestial Being and show them that not only does A-LAWS know exactly where they are, but they have mobile suits superior to them.

And you think that that is a good reason to reveal your, till that point hidden, superiority? Wouldn't it be much better to reveal the Garazzo during a battle and use it to tip the balance?

Of course the innovators had a reason, but it sure wasn't one that made sense. It only served plot in building some tension.

[Revolutionist]

As far as idiotic opinions go, Memento Mori's defences are entirely a matter of speculation, so there isn't any right or wrong assumption to make about it. Historically, Gundam superweapons don't have the greatest defences in the world, so there's nothing inherently wrong with thinking that the same may apply to Memento Mori. If we confine ourselves to just Gundam 00, often the supposedly excellently protected targets are underwhelming when we actually see them (and for that matter, the same goes for tactics and strategies), so it's hardly an unfair position to think that it'll be much the same with Memento Mori.

If you want to go with Gundam tradition, the majority of Super Weapons have in fact been pretty well defended and were only taken out by the main characters. The destruction of some were more silly than others but one thing remains consistent: no nameless, unimportant character or faction has destroyed a super weapon. No Leo rammed Libra and disabled its main cannon, no EA ship rammed Genesis and destroyed it, no missile ever destroyed a SW.

So, my point is MM will not be taken out by some nameless kataron grunt. Historically SW defenses in Gundam have been strong enough to protect them from the grunts, but weak enough that the main character can do it.

If someone is going to destroy MM it will be Setsuna in Trans-Am 00. The odds of that happening are a hell of a lot more than nameless Kataron captain scoring a lucky missile hit or ramming his ship and destroying the weapon.

[console65]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

That's not going to happen. The central conceit of the original GN drives is that they have to be produced in Jupiter's gravitational field; and that the production process is extremely arduous. Jupiter is far enough away, and Gundam 00 space travel is slow enough that travel there and back would take enormous resources and probably a couple of years to pull off. Besides, not being unique will draw away from the mystique of Celestial Being's Gundams.

I meant GN Drive [T]s. If Kataron got their hand on a few and produced a few high end prototype suits, they could be actually helpful.

[grey_moon]

Originally Posted by console65

I meant GN Drive [T]s. If Kataron got their hand on a few and produced a few high end prototype suits, they could be actually helpful.

Errrrmm this is the point I'm trying to make. If Kataron get more powerful suits, and even if they at the time they have the same goals as CB, they still at the end of the day in the eyes of the people they fight are terrorists. So far the show heavily hints that they use terrorist tactics (bombing civs) and there has been nothing to show that they don't. Therefore if they have mobile suits capable of taking out a-laws or the feds then CB if they are following their core goal of eliminating wars would need to take Kataron out. CB in my mind are about a few very very powerful suits used by trusted individuals to surgically remove the cause of wars.

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by grey_moon

Errrrmm this is the point I'm trying to make. If Kataron get more powerful suits, and even if they at the time they have the same goals as CB, they still at the end of the day in the eyes of the people they fight are terrorists. So far the show heavily hints that they use terrorist tactics (bombing civs) and there has been nothing to show that they don't. Therefore if they have mobile suits capable of taking out a-laws or the feds then CB if they are following their core goal of eliminating wars would need to take Kataron out. CB in my mind are about a few very very powerful suits used by trusted individuals to surgically remove the cause of wars.

Didn't official material state that Katharon's tactics involved using mobile suits to attack Federation/A-Laws bases before their GN-Drive-equipped mobile suits could arrive?

[kakakka]

Originally Posted by Galerian

And you think that that is a good reason to reveal your, till that point hidden, superiority? Wouldn't it be much better to reveal the Garazzo during a battle and use it to tip the balance?

Innovators don't care though, since during that point, they believe they have all the advantage they have. They believed that revealing Garazzo doesn't affect anythng just bit.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Eej

Garazzo appeared to intimidate Celestial Being and show them that not only does A-LAWS know exactly where they are, but they have mobile suits superior to them.

Yup, as I wrote, "no reason whatsoever".

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

If you want to go with Gundam tradition, the majority of Super Weapons have in fact been pretty well defended and were only taken out by the main characters. The destruction of some were more silly than others but one thing remains consistent: no nameless, unimportant character or faction has destroyed a super weapon. No Leo rammed Libra and disabled its main cannon, no EA ship rammed Genesis and destroyed it, no missile ever destroyed a SW.

The superweapons themselves don't tend to have particularly good defenses; what they have, are bunches of mobile suits and other defenders, but that's a bit of a different matter. And of course the main reason why line units never end up doing the heavy lifting in defeating such weapons isn't because they're incapable of doing so, but because it's more heroic for the main characters to be shown striking the finishing blow. This has almost nothing to do with the defenses, per se; rather it's more of a storytelling mechanism (and a bit of a tired one as far as I'm concerned).

Originally Posted by console65

I meant GN Drive [T]s. If Kataron got their hand on a few and produced a few high end prototype suits, they could be actually helpful.

There's no sign that the creators have the intention of doing anything like that. On a realism basis, it doesn't make sense since there's also no indication that Kataron have the wherewithal to harness a new technology and be able to churn out brand new mobile suits in time to make any difference.

Originally Posted by kakakka

Innovators don't care though, since during that point, they believe they have all the advantage they have. They believed that revealing Garazzo doesn't affect anythng just bit.

I don't see your point. Saying that the Innovators didn't care about having a reason to showboat with Garazzo doesn't do anything to refute the argument that they had no reason to showboat with Garazzo.