Mobile Suit Gundam 00 Second Season - Episode 13 Discussion / Poll

[Dean_the_Young]

Originally Posted by nutype

That was said in jest, I thought it was obvious from the way I added "!" at the end of my sentence. Not like you could be a good judge of the song either way with since you probably dont know Japanese, a foreign language to you. From what I've seen the majority of Japanese people on 2ch agree with me anyway.

I'm impressed. You've combined two separate logical fallacies and an idiotic fallacy.

First, you're trying a "No True Scotsman" fallacy of disqualifying the opinion and argument of anyone who doesn't fit your arbitrary criteria: namely, anyone who (you assume) doesn't speak Japanese. That really doesn't play well because the fundamentals of what make a good opening: tone, pacing, animation, and rhythm aren't restricted by language, and in many cases subbers quite adequetly both translate the lyrics and show the pacing. Anyone with a decent level of taste can judge.

Second, appealing to the majority is another fallacy. Having a lot of people agree with you doesn't make you right: it just means a lot of people have the same belief. History is replete with examples of why the majority has been wrong on wide ranges of topics. Appealing to the majority on a Japanese analogue of 4chan is, to put it nicely, weak. They aren't even representative of Japan any more than we posters are representative of the english-writing world.

As for the idiotic fallacy... you have no ground to judge the OP until you see it. Seriously. The OP is a combination of both the music AND the animation, and whether the music stands well alone or not doesn't mean that it doesn't work well with the animation. Calling it the worse Gundam OP song ever without seeing the OP is baseless.

[Dream_Traveller]

Originally Posted by Liquidzero

yes 00 is a mecha series but it still attempts to draw a good deal of material from how scenarios would run in a realistic setting, and letting enemy forces right into your door just so you can deal with "named" pilots would be an extremely large mistake even in a mecha series. cause while we know it's a mecha series, the characters in the show don't and for all a laws knows the katharon fleet could be on a course to kamikaze their ships into the memento mori. so you would have them concentrate on CB cause they're the super heroes of the show and bad guys should just focus on the super heroes cause cannon fodder never does anything?

Well, what could slow-moving Laohu and Virginia-class ships hope to do? And, as the Ptolemy's charge demonstrated, the run to the Memento Mori was miles in length. Also, the Ptolemy had the benefit of having one TRANS-AM'd Gundams as a battery. The Virginias and Laohus were sitting ducks, moving at a snail's pace, and, because of that, it was also pretty obvious that they were attempting to attack at long range.

That, and this: 'barbarians' have worked in the past, but that was because they could at least fight their enemies. Here, Katharon has laughably obsolete tech, and all they've done so far is get slaughtered.

[nutype]

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

I'm impressed. You've combined two separate logical fallacies and an idiotic fallacy.

First, you're trying a "No True Scotsman" fallacy of disqualifying the opinion and argument of anyone who doesn't fit your arbitrary criteria: namely, anyone who (you assume) doesn't speak Japanese. That really doesn't play well because the fundamentals of what make a good opening: tone, pacing, animation, and rhythm aren't restricted by language, and in many cases subbers quite adequetly both translate the lyrics and show the pacing. Anyone with a decent level of taste can judge.

Second, appealing to the majority is another fallacy. Having a lot of people agree with you doesn't make you right: it just means a lot of people have the same belief. History is replete with examples of why the majority has been wrong on wide ranges of topics. Appealing to the majority on a Japanese analogue of 4chan is, to put it nicely, weak. They aren't even representative of Japan any more than we posters are representative of the english-writing world.

As for the idiotic fallacy... you have no ground to judge the OP until you see it. Seriously. The OP is a combination of both the music AND the animation, and whether the music stands well alone or not doesn't mean that it doesn't work well with the animation. Calling it the worse Gundam OP song ever without seeing the OP is baseless.

First of all if you read my post you will realise I was critiquing the song itself. It's a poor choice of song in of itself to be associated with a gundam show with a predominately male audience.

I never said I was right because the majority of Japanese people on 2ch agree with me but these are the only people that can even be able to judge a song since the song is indeed Japanese. About you saying 2ch not being a good sample set of Japanese viewers is something I have to question as I'm not totally sure. It's not as if you can produce scientific poll on this.

I was merely saying that spitfire is in no position to question my judgement because it is a Japanese song and Im assuming he is not fluent in Japanese. If he is indeed Japanese or is fluent in Japanese Ill withdraw my early statement.

[Funkatron]

Originally Posted by nutype

First of all if you read my post you will realise I was critiquing the song itself. It's a poor choice of song in of itself to be associated with a gundam show with a predominately male audience.

I never said I was right because the majority of Japanese people on 2ch agree with me but these are the only people that can even be able to judge a song since the song is indeed Japanese. About you saying 2ch not being a good sample set of Japanese viewers is something I have to question as I'm not totally sure. It's not as if you can produce scientific poll on this.

I was merely saying that spitfire is in no position to question my judgement because it is a Japanese song and Im assuming he is not fluent in Japanese. If he is indeed Japanese or is fluent in Japanese Ill withdraw my early statement.

It is possible to like a song even though you don't speak Japanese, you know. And do you speak japanese, since you seem to think they are the only ones that can properly critique Japanese music fairly?

[Galerian]

Originally Posted by Funkatron

It is possible to like a song even though you don't speak Japanese, you know.

Agreed. What has language got to do with anything? You either like or dislike a song, depending on your taste and all. There is only one way to truly objectively judge a song: Salesfigures! Did the artist (and other parties involved) make a lot of money because of the song ? Yes?-> Good Song. All other reasonings involve taste which shouldn't be steered clear from at all times.

I suppose if one truly disliked a song, that person could safely claim that the opening will probably not be according to that person's tastes. I am assuming one knows his own tastes best. If you make it clear that it is a personal opinion and you don't go shouting 'opening is th4 suckzorz', I don't see why that person, based on such a reasoning, is mistaken, or should be called an idiot.

I don't particularly like the song in question, but with some flashy animations: I think it could be a pretty nice opening.....personally.

[nutype]

Originally Posted by Funkatron

It is possible to like a song even though you don't speak Japanese, you know. And do you speak japanese, since you seem to think they are the only ones that can properly critique Japanese music fairly?

i am japanese.

[Spitfire]

Originally Posted by nutype

I was merely saying that spitfire is in no position to question my judgement because it is a Japanese song and Im assuming he is not fluent in Japanese. If he is indeed Japanese or is fluent in Japanese Ill withdraw my early statement.

You didn't even put out a true "judgement" on the song. All you said was that its the worst Gundam song ever and that anyone who liked it was wrong. And as others have said, you don't have to be fluent in Japanese to critique a Japanese song.

[neoeagle]

Couldn't 00 raiser with Trans-am Finished momento mori?

Why didn't 00 didn't go Trans-Arm in this episode?

Aside from above everthing was fine.Super fine 10/10.

[Tokkan]

Originally Posted by Spitfire

You didn't even put out a true "judgement" on the song. All you said was that its the worst Gundam song ever and that anyone who liked it was wrong. And as others have said, you don't have to be fluent in Japanese to critique a Japanese song.

Yeah, I agree. Rammstein's songs are mostly in German, but that doesn't stop fans of them worldwide, most of whom don't even speak the language, from thinking that they're awesome.

[nutype]

Originally Posted by Spitfire

You didn't even put out a true "judgement" on the song. All you said was that its the worst Gundam song ever and that anyone who liked it was wrong. And as others have said, you don't have to be fluent in Japanese to critique a Japanese song.

Obviously a person that knows the language has more weight attached to his opinion. I'm sure you put more weight on your doctor's opinion on your illness rather than asking the lay person next to you. On forums like these it seems that I cant help but run into people that believe that everyone's opinion carries equal weight.

[Dean_the_Young]

Originally Posted by nutype

First of all if you read my post you will realise I was critiquing the song itself. It's a poor choice of song in of itself to be associated with a gundam show with a predominately male audience.

You called it the worst Gundam OP song ever, without even having the slightest idea how the OP even looks. The point stands.

Also, to be critiquing the song you have to actually, you know, critique it. As in bring up specific flaws, problems, etc. You just said it was terrible, said anyone who disagree was wrong by default, and didn't give a single reason why it was terrible. That's not critiquing, that's mindless flaming. Didn't like the melody? Was the refrain annoying? Did it give a tone unsuitable for 00? Those would be critiques.

I never said I was right because the majority of Japanese people on 2ch agree with me

Explicilty? No. But that was how you used it, and you don't have to explicitly call an argument to make one. The moment you bring up "the majority agrees with me," you're making an argument based on numerical support; there is no other use or point to bringing it up except to support your own point, which is exactly how you used it. If you didn't intend to, well, you fell into a fallacy by accident. But it remains a logical fallacy.

but these are the only people that can even be able to judge a song since the song is indeed Japanese.

Categorically false, as well as ignoring that none of them have seen the OP either. Music is a cross-cultural medium that can be enjoyed and evaluated regardless of one's culture or even language; that's why J-POP has its own niche market in America, why American pop artists have an audience even in the middle east, and why classical music, music that really isn't part of any modern culture, can be taken almost anywhere in the world and enjoyed and appreciated.

About you saying 2ch not being a good sample set of Japanese viewers is something I have to question as I'm not totally sure. It's not as if you can produce scientific poll on this.

Can? Yes. Will? I'll point you in the proper direction: there are demographic studies out there (mostly in Japanese media for this topic) that study who are the type of people to regularly post on anonymous message boards, and there are certainly demographic studies as to the groups with interest in mecha-anime, simply for business purposes.

And there are studies that watch and examine the change of behavior of normal people when they begin posting on anonymous boards; anyone who thinks 4-chan posts are representative of wider Western culture are seriously drinking the cool aid.

So go, search for some demographic studies on the kinds of people who would post about Gundam on 2chan: you'll find that they're hardly ideal representatives of the fans of the Gundam franchise anymore than 4chan's anime sections are representative of US audiences. Even animesuki's board culture is a far cry from 4chan, and they are of the same language and have overlapping sections of interest.

I was merely saying that spitfire is in no position to question my judgement because it is a Japanese song and Im assuming he is not fluent in Japanese.

No, he has every grounds to question your judgment: for one thing, your opinion is just as valid/invalid as his. You have nothing but the flimsiest grounds to pass unarguable judgment (an arbitrary exclusion of who can or can not judge something), and he has every right to disagree with your claim.

For another, you are assuming. Which, when you break it up, makes a very clear point: you are making an ass out of you, not me.

If he is indeed Japanese or is fluent in Japanese Ill withdraw my early statement.

Being Japanese has nothing to do with it, though. Most people don't listen to the exact words of a song in their native tongue anyway, but rather take in the harmonics and rhythm. Don't believe me? Listen to the radio, and consider how many songs you like and recall but don't remember all the words for, but rather just the refrain. Musical theory explores that, if you ever take it. (Or as you should already know, if you have.)

[Tokkan]

Originally Posted by nutype

Obviously a person that knows the language has more weight attached to his opinion. I'm sure you put more weight on your doctor's opinion on your illness rather than asking the lay person next to you. On forums like these it seems that I cant help but run into people that believe that everyone's opinion carries equal weight.

Unless you were to say the lyrics are poorly written I can't think of anything where language would matter in the weight of opinion of the song.

[LoweGear]

Originally Posted by nutype

I was merely saying that spitfire is in no position to question my judgement because it is a Japanese song and Im assuming he is not fluent in Japanese. If he is indeed Japanese or is fluent in Japanese Ill withdraw my early statement.

That's an incredibly arrogant statement there. Maybe he is in no position to question your judgement because it is simply your opinion afterall... but because it is simply your subjective opinion, and not an objectively verifiable fact that the idea that somehow no one can refute your judgement in regards to your taste in music is a very haughty way of thinking, no matter if you are Japanese listening to a japanese song. Also, using a majority to base an argument on does not make your opinion right - it only says that other people share your opinion, but since theirs is also just that, i.e. an opinion, they cannot be used as a logical basis for judging the quality of a work.

Also, like everyone has already said even if the rest of us are not Japanese we can still appreciate a song anyway - otherwise most of us here at Animesuki wouldn't be able to appreciate anime music. Even if we don't understand the lyrics, we're still able to enjoy the phonetics of the lyrics, i.e. how they sound, and of course we're also able to appreciate them for their melody, their tune, their composition and arrangement etc... Having no knowledge of Japanese does not prevent us from having an opinion on the song.

Obviously a person that knows the language has more weight attached to his opinion. I'm sure you put more weight on your doctor's opinion on your illness rather than asking the lay person next to you. On forums like these it seems that I cant help but run into people that believe that everyone's opinion carries equal weight.

A doctor's "opinion" is based upon the observation of an objectively verifiable subject, like the condition of a human body and whether it is ill or not. This is not the case for musical taste, which is subjective, and hence everybody's opinion is equal in this regard.

Also, you sound like it's bad to think that everybody's opinion carries equal weight. But that is the case objectively - everyone's opinion is equal, because we are all entitled to have our own thoughts on a subjective matter that is bound to be disagreeable. I can agree to disagree with you that the song is bad, and I can tolerate you saying so, because it is your subjective opinion on it. But saying that the rest of our opinions here do not matter just because of a language barrier is arrogance on the highest level.

[RedWing]

Yay I got my fighting episode!

Still some issues with this ep, but I need to go to sleep since its 01:37 here.

Don't you guys want to move your discussion onto the Gundam music thread?

[LightningZERO]

Originally Posted by neoeagle

Couldn't 00 raiser with Trans-am Finished momento mori?

Why didn't 00 didn't go Trans-Arm in this episode?

The Ptolemaios and the Gundams were going all out on the Memento Mori, if 00 Raiser went Trans-Am, no other Gundams were able to defend it

[Dean_the_Young]

Originally Posted by nutype

Obviously a person that knows the language has more weight attached to his opinion.

Nope, and that's a logical fallacy* as well, since you're appealing to the speaker for validation and not the argument. The strength of an argument is based on its support and reasoning, not by who gives it. Since you're lacking in either support or reasoning for your assertion, at this point you have no argument.

*A logical fallacy, if you weren't aware, is a flaw in an argument that renders the argument meaningless because it lacks any support.

I'm sure you put more weight on your doctor's opinion on your illness rather than asking the lay person next to you.

A doctor is a highly skilled specialist, with years training in his selective field. You, however, are a Japanese lay man. By probability I have no reason to expect or think of you as anything other than someone who knows two languages, which is hardly unique and certainly not claim to exclusive judgement on a matter as subjective as music.

If you are, however, a trained musician, or are qualified to dissect and discuss the nature of music, then you might have the standing to issue a professional opinion. But speaking the language isn't that qualification.

On forums like these it seems that I cant help but run into people that believe that everyone's opinion carries equal weight.

We're all living in Amerika...

Seriously, no, we don't think everyone's opinion carries equal weight. But we prefer to judge opinions on their basis of reasoning, not by the tongue they speak; that would be as over-simplified and foolish as judging by other natural-born circumstances as race, gender, or nationality. Please, argue why the song is shit. But you'll have to support your assertion, and not think you are infallible because you are Japanese.

[nutype]

anyone else want to jump on my argument? You guys are essentially arguing that your opinion is equal to mine even though you dont understand a single lyric or word. Now that is weak.

The entire song might even be jibberish and you would never even know it lol.

[Funkatron]

Originally Posted by nutype

anyone else want to jump on my argument? You guys are essentially arguing that your opinion is equal to mine even though you dont understand a single lyric or word. Now that is weak.

Wo. Just wow. Lets carry on, shall we?

This ep is probably one of my favorites olf the series. It had action, it had a good strategy and it had 3 out of the 4 Gundams shining brightly in the spotlight. That and I got to hear the mischievous laugh of Nena... you can hate her but there is something about near psychotic red heads that is appealing.

[Tokkan]

Originally Posted by nutype

anyone else want to jump on my argument? You guys are essentially arguing that your opinion is equal to mine even though you dont understand a single lyric or word. Now that is weak.

The entire song might even be jibberish and you would never even know it lol.

Well, let's see. I've already brought up the example of Rammstein and how language isn't a barrier to musical opinion. Dean the Young has already brought up that the vast majority of people don't even pay attention to even lyrics in their own native tongue.

So what's your point?

[Rising Dragon]

The whole "It might even be gibberish and you won't know" argument is meaningless. Don't think you're the only one who knows how to read Japanese. Others will translate it, and probably already have. If we wanted, we can just search for the translations, or ask someone who can read Japanese for the translations. Stop sounding like you're superior on the matter, Nutype.