Discussion on equal trade...

[usbport]

Originally Posted by Isis&Osiris

you're referring t othe theroy of soul families. the bond between them is stronger than non-family bonds.

this theory is represented in the book, soul recreation, by robert e. delzer. the explanation is generalized but the gist of it was:

a flame constitutes two souls undivided. once it incarnates, it splits one unit into two (yin /yang symbolism). the bond is called a Twin Flame. as such, twins have a bond that is spiritual, beyond mortal death.

as a possible explanation, Ed and Al are twin flames and the attraction to be together is undeniable. one cannot exist without the other since to become one, they either die together to be united with the flame or incarnate as two living souls.

so that soul transplant he did didn't require a heavy debt unless it was for a soul not in his soul family.

Peace

Maybe we're digging a little too deep for a meaning that isn't there...

It's possible the series creator went "A guy who sacrifices his arm to bring back his brother from the dead as a suit of armor... GENIUS!"

Ed and Al are not twins.

[Yebyosh]

Originally Posted by usbport

Alchemy works by altering the flow of things, not by simply creating from knowledge. All an Alchemist needs to know is what he wants to create. From what has been shown in the series, an Alchemist does not have to know anything (or very little) in order to recreate something as long as he has proper knowledge of how alchemy works.

My last example will be the incident where Al uses an array to repair that radio in the desert city (forgot which ep, very early on though). Now while he must have the equal amount of materials to repair this radio, he does not have to know *anything* about how the radio actually was, how it worked, or how it was constructed. He repairs it by altering the flow of things (fate is a better word) and "undestroys" it.

Your theory doesn't stand too, considering that there are a lot of powerful alchemists in Central who could have "undestroyed" Ed's Automail but couldn't. Ed too refused to let Armstrong repair Alphonse because only he knows how Al was bound to the armour. You do need a certain knowledge of how the thing works to attempt to restore/create it. Otherwise how does Ed create cannons out of base metals? Certainly the base metals never existed as a cannon before?

Originally Posted by Tenkoy

I mean, who honestly believes that Al's soul is only worth Ed's arm. It doesn't make sense. If it were equal trade, wouldn't he logically have to sacrifice his own soul?

As I said previously, there is the basic material cost before any considerations for energy compensation is taken. So the material cost for a soul exchange is one part of your physical body + any shortfall to be made up in energy. The basic material cost for a body is however a whole body. It seems the story rates the soul as worth part of a body in material costs.

So Trisha Elric resurrection attempt cost = 1 Body (Body for body) + 1 Leg (part of body for soul) + Energy
Calling back Alphonse's soul = 1 Arm (part of body for soul) + Energy
Binding Alphonse's soul to armour = Energy (no material costs incurred)

Originally Posted by dragonz20

But still, the required energy expended on a particular task is dependent on the user right? If I was to make a statue of something, it might take me several hundreds of attempts since I've never made a statue thus tons and tons of energy. But an artist who creates statues for a living would be able to create one much more easily and thus expend less physical energy (mental is dependent). So is Al and Eward so talented at everything that they can use alchemy to create/fix anything they want?

Yep, something like that. If you have expertise in the area, you could take shortcuts in the moulding, thus expending less energy to do so. An alchemist that has studied sculpting and practiced a bit in the field would resonably be able to effortlessly sculpt statues faster and efficiently than an alchemist that only played around with it. That is one reason why certain alchemists are better in one field than the other.

Don't forget that the Elrics have been in constant training throughout their free time. They would have been practicing how to shape/create things and Izumi's physical combat reminders are for them to train their body to 'store' more energy and use them efficiently. Hence they are great batteries of energy. Of course their capacity of energy is an anime exaggeration but required for the 'heroism' element.

[usbport]

Originally Posted by Yebyosh

Your theory doesn't stand too, considering that there are a lot of powerful alchemists in Central who could have "undestroyed" Ed's Automail but couldn't. Ed too refused to let Armstrong repair Alphonse because only he knows how Al was bound to the armour. You do need a certain knowledge of how the thing works to attempt to restore/create it. Otherwise how does Ed create cannons out of base metals? Certainly the base metals never existed as a cannon before?

There is generally going to be no answer as to why another Alchemist at central fixed Ed's arm. My theory on this is that if they had done so, it would not have made for a good story-arc. It makes for a better story to have Ed forced to return to his home to have his arm repaired than it does for some unknown Alchemist to come along and suddenly fix his arm.

Writers make inconsistencies where they are convenient for a good story, this happens to be one of them. You cannot have a perfect circle of logic in any story, there will always be an inconsistency that rebels against the evidence at hand.

In response to the cannon thing: There are small amounts of all kinds of different metals in dirt. If someone were to extract the metals and have the skills, they *could* make a cannon. All that my theory suggests is that all that is needed is the *potential* for it to exist. All Ed would need is the will to form the cannon and the energy to do so as well, then extract the base metals that already exist in the soil everywhere and boom... there you go.

[tektonik]

Maybe Ed deep down wanted to see winry again. Remember he doesn't know much about automail either so he went back to the source.

[Yebyosh]

Originally Posted by usbport

There is generally going to be no answer as to why another Alchemist at central fixed Ed's arm. My theory on this is that if they had done so, it would not have made for a good story-arc. It makes for a better story to have Ed forced to return to his home to have his arm repaired than it does for some unknown Alchemist to come along and suddenly fix his arm.

Writers make inconsistencies where they are convenient for a good story, this happens to be one of them. You cannot have a perfect circle of logic in any story, there will always be an inconsistency that rebels against the evidence at hand.

There was no need for an unknown Alchemist to come along. Mustang was there. Armstrong was there. Heck even Marcoh was around. And none offered to fix his Automail because they do not know how to. The 3 of them together can heal wounds, mend bones, create sculptures, form crystals, manipulate molecular air, manipulate energy so by your theory they already should be able to go round fixing Automail everywhere.

In response to the cannon thing: There are small amounts of all kinds of different metals in dirt. If someone were to extract the metals and have the skills, they *could* make a cannon. All that my theory suggests is that all that is needed is the *potential* for it to exist. All Ed would need is the will to form the cannon and the energy to do so as well, then extract the base metals that already exist in the soil everywhere and boom... there you go.

In that same manner, Ed could have made a laser gun as well. Why didn't he? In fact, with the fact that Automail already exist, why didn't he created automatons (robots) to be his minions in combat? All he have to do is harness the 'potential' as you said and create them?

If the elements have the "potential" to become Automail, why are the Automail makers still in business with none of them using alchemy? Shouldn't there have been any normal alchemists running around repairing Automails? If the elements have the potential to become "stuff" as you said, the higher technology items should have popped up by now just by alchemy alone. In fact shouldn't they be even more higher technology than our world by now?

[Joe Dalton]

First the reason he lost his leg is not ebcause of the human transmutation but because it was the price he paid for the knowledge he gained.
Also there are many factors that you can consider... like if you depend on alchemy there is an aditional price you pay since you make yourself dependand.
Also it takes away normal loss so that people are not as carefull as they would be... so if you take more than just mass than you must take into acount allot of factors in order 2 create true equality in the exchange.
Taking into acount there are so many factors than it would make sense that although it may not seem like an even trade it may verry well be.
In adition value is in the eye of the beholder so what is valuable 2 whoever decides is something 1 can only guess...
Ofcourse its in human nature 2 give things like art an exact value... but thats a different conversation

[Riese]

There is a similar principal in physics: the conservation of mass.

If I throw a bowl of water at a concrete wall and smash it, while the bowl will be broken, the molecules of bowl dust will not have vanished from this universe.

You cannot arbitrarily create or destroy matter. You can change its form, but it will still be here.

Conservation of energy is really odd too. In order to break molecular bonds, you must exert energy to rip them apart. However, if the bonds re-form, you actually get energy output. This is paticularly noticable in covalent bonds where molecules actually trade electrons with eachother and really become a "unit" so to say.

This is how explosives work. Notice that when the Hindenburg exploded, water was gushing out of it. That water was formed by the hydrogen in the blimp combining with the oxygen in the atmosphere. Covalent bonds were being formed, not destroyed!

There is also a bizzare, inter-molecular force(weak and strong are intra-atomic forces) known as the Van der Waals force. This is a very weak, weak force. It's something that we overpower on a constant basis. Van der Waals explains how friction occurs(namely, we stick a little to the ground so we can push off it and walk as opposed to hopelessly having our feet slide in 1 place.)

Alchemy respects conservation of mass but it doesn't quite respect conservation of energy. However, one of the most truthful statements made was by Kimbly about humans having good ingredients for explosives.

Back in my big time pyro days, I used table sugar as in bombs. Good ole glucose. We've got a good lot in our bodies! Water is also a good explosive amplifier(humans are ~80% water.) Since water does a remarkable job of sticking to itself, water molecules become vicious projectiles, wreaking more havok.

[Pendragon2879]

Okay, I better catch up. I just started watching FMA and I am only on episode 26.

[Isis&Osiris]

Originally Posted by Yebyosh

Your theory doesn't stand too, considering that there are a lot of powerful alchemists in Central who could have "undestroyed" Ed's Automail but couldn't. Ed too refused to let Armstrong repair Alphonse because only he knows how Al was bound to the armour. You do need a certain knowledge of how the thing works to attempt to restore/create it. Otherwise how does Ed create cannons out of base metals? Certainly the base metals never existed as a cannon before?

As I said previously, there is the basic material cost before any considerations for energy compensation is taken. So the material cost for a soul exchange is one part of your physical body + any shortfall to be made up in energy. The basic material cost for a body is however a whole body. It seems the story rates the soul as worth part of a body in material costs.

So Trisha Elric resurrection attempt cost = 1 Body (Body for body) + 1 Leg (part of body for soul) + Energy
Calling back Alphonse's soul = 1 Arm (part of body for soul) + Energy
Binding Alphonse's soul to armour = Energy (no material costs incurred)

Yep, something like that. If you have expertise in the area, you could take shortcuts in the moulding, thus expending less energy to do so. An alchemist that has studied sculpting and practiced a bit in the field would resonably be able to effortlessly sculpt statues faster and efficiently than an alchemist that only played around with it. That is one reason why certain alchemists are better in one field than the other.

Don't forget that the Elrics have been in constant training throughout their free time. They would have been practicing how to shape/create things and Izumi's physical combat reminders are for them to train their body to 'store' more energy and use them efficiently. Hence they are great batteries of energy. Of course their capacity of energy is an anime exaggeration but required for the 'heroism' element.

well, apparently the the EQ theory is turning into poopoo as Ed and Al are the buttend of the joke. Here's wrath having body parts belonging to Ed he didn't earn at all or made any sacrifices for it.

usbport:

Maybe we're digging a little too deep for a meaning that isn't there...

It's possible the series creator went "A guy who sacrifices his arm to bring back his brother from the dead as a suit of armor... GENIUS!"

Ed and Al are not twins.

its called working theory based on already available correlated theory. what do you have or got?

like I said the twin flames theory is a good starting point. if it were that simple Ed could have just encased his mother's soul in the armor as a starter , huh?

I was specific when i referr to them spiritually as twins which represents the umblilical cord between them is a divine chaining.

[xxjc1104xx]

Originally Posted by Tenkoy

Also, wasn't there the prologue where Al talks about the law of equal trade and how they believed that was the truth of the world when they were young. As in that isn't what they believed later on.

I mean, who honestly believes that Al's soul is only worth Ed's arm. It doesn't make sense. If it were equal trade, wouldn't he logically have to sacrifice his own soul?

(It's been a while since I saw the beginning. So I can't remember if it was his leg or arm that was exchanged for Al)

what episode did you watch up to? you are right, later on, the belief of equivalent trade is questioned. =)

[Guido]

Alchemists overlook the fact that the soul is also composed upon the following: emotions, memories, knowledge experience, life force, and free will; components that alter and define the course of fate for each individual.
Its true for the case of life force than an energy cost is implied, however, feelings and free will are not easily to comprehend because there's no energy or matter cost implied for them rather cost of knowledge realization. Memories are what we obtained from experiencing: implying that not only a transformation from one state to another, but also transforming one cost type into another.

The Law of alteration of fate applies where each soul has a predetermined destiny: It is contain within a living body, through the body experiences varied forms of emotions and gathers information from the world and other beings inhabiting it. The goal of the soul is the realization of its existance in the earthly ways, and once it fullfills the role of life, returns from where it originated to spread the knowledge obtained, thus further evolving the stream of knowledge; possibly the 'cosmic' truth dealt about in the series.
A failed human transmutation occurs when an attempt to retrieve a soul that has already fullfill its cycle forces that soul in traversing the same life path that had already crossed.
For a human transmutation to succeed there are only two ways to work around the laws of alchemy: a) The soul has to be cleansed from all memories and knowledge obtained from its previous life in order to be retrieved into a different corporal vessel. b) During lifetime, an indivual likely was indebted with unfinished businesses that he or she could not cope with, leaving the soul incomplete knowledge of the purpose of its mortal existance about the time of death. Therefore, the soul cannot return from where it came from until fully completes the cycle of mortal realization before ascending, so the soul is allowed to return, but would be short-lived.
Neither a nor b can be achieved. In the case of a, it will require the ascension into a new realm of knowlege. The absolute understanding of a cosmic alchemy equation that only God knows. For a human with his/her current level of knowledge evolution, results impossible to even digest how a soul can be reintegrated / decomposed into non-energy components that involve knowledge costs, not energy costs.
For b, the cosmic stream carries an endless horde of souls that repeat the cycle eternal times over. The laws of reincarnation apply here, because we never know if the individual left with or without unfinished business, and ever returns in what shape would be.

This is explanation of alchemy from the spiritual point of view. I will leave my explanation of alchemy based now upon the laws of physics for later.

But for me, one thing is sure that alchemy works both in the physical realm and the spiritual.

[Akichan]

Re Ed's arm: We're not talking about a simple repair here. May I remind everyone that it was completely destroyed? And while in theory it could work, no one there knew the intricate workings of the automail and frankly if it was done wrong it would probably hurt Edward. It may have looked like automail from the outside, but the inside is almost as difficult as recreating an actual arm.

Re Knowledge: One point could be taken that Edward has all kinds of knowledge from the gate. While we as the audience haven't been to the gate, we don't know what Edward has seen. To recreate the inn, he would have to know how things worked inside of it, and have a general idea what an inn looks like. Again, the audience hasn't seen every book Edward has read, or what he did when he was at home around the house. Or maybe Pinako taught him, because his mom was sick for a long time and the two of them really fended for themselves. Also we don't know exactly what Izumi had to say either. However, I'm willing to bet it came from reading books that he knows these things, and how a radio works.

Edit: Oh! I knew I had something else to say. :-D

Re What Al says at the begining of each episode...

Spoiler:

Al says that they used to believe in equivalent trade but that seems to have changed. The reason being is that in episode 32 they begin discussions that challenge the principle of equivalent trade because the element of hard work was forgotten. Dante seems to know about the value of equivalent trade. Hopefully we'll learn more in the future.

[davidlionheartZ]

well there are 2 things about ED's that i think makes him kind of strong or something like that is that aparently his father was a great alchemist and he enharited (sorry for the spelling) his potential second, when he tried to do the mothers tramunition he saw the gate and understood all of the answers of alchemy just like his teacher i think thats why they can do alchemy withouth a circule thingy but thats just me there may be a lot of loop holes on my theory but this is me .

[Jeebs]

The Law of Conservation of Mass/Energy.
That's a real chemistry law that states something along the lines of Reactants=Products, as in you can't get something from nothing and energy is neither created or destroyed, only transfered. All you need is necessary parts (in the right amounts) and the activation energy for the reaction to occur; what is created is the combination (or sometimes decomposition) of the reactants/products. Since alchemy is the precursor of chemistry, I assume this is how the Law of Equivalent Trade works or is atleast somewhat similar.

[state_alchemist]

Well, if we're still talking about why Ed and Al's mom wasn't resurrected correctly, I think it is because you have to have the person's original soul for the resurrection. And obviously, they don't have her original soul, I'm sure they got the materials and the array right.

I think that the Philospher Stone will probably work because remember it is...(If you haven't seen past episode 22, than don't read)

Spoiler:

made up of a bunch of souls, and I think with all those souls in the "Stone" can have the power to call back the soul. And yes I know it sounds like it's not eqivalent trade, but I think that all the sacrificed souls give enough life energy that can help resurrect a soul

Atleast thats what i think.

[davidlionheartZ]

i wonder if they are going to pull it off...

[fullmetalMonkey]

the meaning of equal trade is not monitery but materially so gold ore colud become a ring and vice versa

[fullmetalMonkey]

wait a sec couldn't you just use a secifial lamb like scar of kimblle to reserct there mom so use scar and killbly to make 1 person seems like a fair trade look 1 body for her human body plus 1 more body for her soul make sense to me