Romance in Code Geass (take 4)

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by ginran

lol, is this aimed at my comment about the kiss? thats a mouthful!

but, then wouldnt the same apply to how he tried to push Shirley away by erasing her memory and all that? I'm sorry if I sound like Im being stubborn, but its not much different if you think about it.

it was about your comment

but the point about ereasing sheirly's memory is one that most people misunderstand (becouse they dont remember the ep right) IMO (this isnt an actual counter ship arguemnt, just an observeation)

lelouch didnt erase her memory becosue he wanted her to "forget about him" or IN ORDER to push her away (she was never a real part of his ZERO life anyway)
he erased her memory becouse, at the time, she was having a mental breakdown as a result of what mao did to her (telling her she's a murderer and a slut who used her fathers death as an excuse to kiss the man who MURDERED him)
the resulting mind rape led lelouch to tell her to forget everything that was causing her pain
that unfortunatly included HIM
he didnt do it becouse he wanted to push her away
he did it becouse it was all he could do to help her at the time (she is still around him after that, in ashford, like she was up to that point)

the difference (IMO) about kallen is taht kallen was a part of his "real" world from day one
and as of season 2 she is well aware of who he really is and his reasons, and chooses to follow him of her own free will
for him to push her away under THOSE conditions (as well as considering whats at stake) is quite different then making sheirly forget him (to save her from going crazy) when in reality there would be no cahnge in the norm (since she was never part of that world)
just my opinion

[musouka]

Originally Posted by SonOfHeaven

About turn 7. He only wanted Kallen to comfort him after she said she'll do anything. Besides the fact is it was Kallen not anyone else. If someone wants there to be someone else there, go write a fanfic about it.

Do you guys really even understand why he chose Kallen to "comfort" him? It wasn't because he subconsciously loved her, it was because she was the person around, but more importantly, she was the one most likely to do what he wanted. In other words, she was a prime choice because he was aware of her feelings, not because of his own feelings. If he cared so deeply about her, he wouldn't have reduced her to a body part in order to distract himself.

Like, you see this sort of thing in romance series all the time. "Please comfort me, I don't want to be alone" [fade to black]. But the Kallen/Lelouch scene differs because he's not choosing her for emotional comfort, he's choosing her for sexual comfort. He's choosing her as a warm body, not as "Kallen, a girl I love".

That's also what I mean by "he never lets her in". You might not like to hear it, but having someone you love, someone you want to spend the rest of your life with, means trusting them, and sharing your pain with them. A romantic relationship is a partnership. I won't deny that Lelouch is attracted to Kallen physically, and that he cares about her emotionally, but that doesn't add up to romantic love on his half.

[ginran]

Originally Posted by incorrupts

Sure, the fee is 20$. Then you can call me, whatever you want. |DDD; {feel free to, no prob at all, you should not even ask. 8D}

Aha, i am a scam artist and these days i have to act a bit more biased than usual, but it is true, i am not all "ZOMG this OTP is canon and only this" {or maybe am i? xD}

Ok, srsly, i was mostly joking about the poem and stuff, as looking at it from a canon-evidence point of view. It is just a piece of the puzzle, you can't only take this and be like "i solved it."
I was just trying to point out, that in Kallen's poem, there is the {?} about Lelouch's own feelings, and the question of reciprocation.

Shirley pretty much states, that Lelouch always somehow slipped away. Part of his nature, at some point.

I mean, i do not use only the poems to show a clear-image, but those poems, are like, the gist of each relationship concerning Lelouch.
And Kallen's one, is the only one that questions {the least} returned feelings.
I mean, there has to be a reason for this.

And like i said, it is not like that, Shirlulu did not have scenes with the air of romance around it. Hell, Stage 14's ending, was just epic. CCxL, had a few scenes that were "kinda" touching as well.
But lately, there is the case of examination of, the "explicit - not being quite explicit" scenes, and for whom Lelouch, had most romantic {or semi-romantic} feelings for.
And pretty much all the evidences, show a certain red-haired girl.

XD Sky it is then!
lol, no you aren't bad like that at all!

I understand what you mean about the poems being like puzzle pieces, they seemed to sum up the relationships he had with the other characters(from the ones I read at least). But the question of reciprocation can also be taken as part of Kallen's feelings. Just remembering how unsure she became about Lelouch toward the end, she might still be unsure, somewhere in the back of her mind, she might still be wondering what he thought of her. which is signifigant for her, but less for Lelouch.

For Shirley, I had to think about this. And I think that when Shirley is saying that he slipped away, it didnt necessarily mean in terms of loving her. Although they couldnt physically be together due to the circumstances or the Rebellion and all that,hence slipping away, they could still be in love.

I hope Im making sense!

[SonOfHeaven]

Of course it wasn't because Lelouch loved Kallen he wanted her to comfort him lol. I'm just saying he asked that because of what she said since he was physically attracted to her. He was about to run after Kallen then Rolo appeared. About Lelouch feelings for Kallen. Its about his actions toward Kallen throughout the show that people were speculating about it. Which showed later on in the series, he deeply cared for Kallen(turn 19, and especially turn 22 since Lelouch is OOC here).

I also see at certain points during the show he was "willingly" trying at times to let Kallen "in". Just with all the interruptions and circumstances got in the way of that sadly.

Also I think most of us know what makes for an romantic relationship btw.

[willyvereb]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

for fear of sounding like lolipopo
the "kiss" part wasnt the proof of eternal love
the "pushing her away so that she can have a future in the end even if it puts the most importent plan in history (that the fate of the world hangs on) in danger and even if SHE wants to join him (albit without knowing what he has planned yet) but nevertheless making sure that he spends the last moments he has left before throwing away any hope for a future and devoting his life to ZERO-R in her company even if he cant tell her the truth" part
is the bigger hint

@willyvereb
he is near sheirly and milly from the start of the ep
since he just deceided that his role as ZERO is no longer needed, whats stopping him from starting the relationship he couldnt have with sheirly before (he is retired after all)
why does he instead choose to pull a shinji ikari and start riding the trains
why doesnt he just walk up to any woman in the street and ask for "comfort" before going off to drug himself
the point being that he didnt deceide on THAT kind of comfort until kallen told him (in those exact words) "i will do what ever you want"
he told her what he wants (which he didnt want before)
and later on when rolo OFFERED himself (pretty much) he didnt take the offer (there is a point to be made about him not being gay, but this is fiction)

As you said...she offered herself...if i think it out carefully...He would have tried to kiss(or even do things beyond that) even Nina if she said something like that...
Not to mention that even the fact is doubtious that he meant it seriously...Lelouch easily perdict the actions of the mayority of people...even when he emotionally down. Probably it was just a test by him(testing Kallen's feelings towards her, and her loyality.)

Let's end this: Lelouch was never clear about his feelings and the indications to any side were slight...not to mention the huge emotional burden on him because of his plan and his secret identity as Zero.

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by musouka

Do you guys really even understand why he chose Kallen to "comfort" him? It wasn't because he subconsciously loved her, it was because she was the person around, but more importantly, she was the one most likely to do what he wanted. In other words, she was a prime choice because he was aware of her feelings, not because of his own feelings. If he cared so deeply about her, he wouldn't have reduced her to a body part in order to distract himself.

Like, you see this sort of thing in romance series all the time. "Please comfort me, I don't want to be alone" [fade to black]. But the Kallen/Lelouch scene differs because he's not choosing her for emotional comfort, he's choosing her for sexual comfort. He's choosing her as a warm body, not as "Kallen, a girl I love".

That's also what I mean by "he never lets her in". You might not like to hear it, but having someone you love, someone you want to spend the rest of your life with, means trusting them, and sharing your pain with them. A romantic relationship is a partnership. I won't deny that Lelouch is attracted to Kallen physically, and that he cares about her emotionally, but that doesn't add up to romantic love on his half.

Well yeah, we are not using this as Romeo's proof of love for Juliet, we are saying that it was sexual attraction and that might be something ++ compared to the other girls. That a lot of people dismiss it.

If Kallen was ugly like Viletta let's say {or Nina, or Ougi} then i am pretty sure he would not want to get laiiiid.

Sure, he expected to have his way with her, because like Kallen said in R2-1, "even if that means becoming a slave", he probably thought that Kallen was gonna be the jizz on his pants, but there were involved Kallens' feelings on this occasion, and she made it pretty clear to him.
Probably the real staring point for a certain something between those two.

@ginran:: Well, i say that had Lelouch not chosen Zero-path, then Shirlulu would be canon, but alas. 8D

[bladeofdarkness]

actually...
since ep 12 proves how insanely popular lelouch was with the ladies
and sheirly's reaction to sayoko kissing her was far from bad (she wondered if they are dating now)
its possible that lelouch didnt believe ANYONE would turn him down (with his geass its even more clear)
but he didnt ASK anyone else
he asked kallen
when shierly's dad died
would she have turned to rivals or suzaku ?
for comfort maybe
for THAT kind of comfort ?

[ginran]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

it was about your comment

but the point about ereasing sheirly's memory is one that most people misunderstand (becouse they dont remember the ep right) IMO (this isnt an actual counter ship arguemnt, just an observeation)

lelouch didnt erase her memory becosue he wanted her to "forget about him" or IN ORDER to push her away (she was never a real part of his ZERO life anyway)
he erased her memory becouse, at the time, she was having a mental breakdown as a result of what mao did to her (telling her she's a murderer and a slut who used her fathers death as an excuse to kiss the man who MURDERED him)
the resulting mind rape led lelouch to tell her to forget everything that was causing her pain
that unfortunatly included HIM
he didnt do it becouse he wanted to push her away
he did it becouse it was all he could do to help her at the time (she is still around him after that, in ashford, like she was up to that point)

the difference (IMO) about kallen is taht kallen was a part of his "real" world from day one
and as of season 2 she is well aware of who he really is and his reasons, and chooses to follow him of her own free will
for him to push her away under THOSE conditions (as well as considering whats at stake) is quite different then making sheirly forget him (to save her from going crazy) when in reality there would be no cahnge in the norm (since she was never part of that world)
just my opinion

hmm, I understand where you're going with this. But, I think CC was the one that stated he was pushing her away to keep her from being involved in the dangers he had created any further. Something like: "You should distance yourself from those you dont wish to lose." So he not only saved Shirley from her mental breakdown, but also pushed her away at the same time.

And I understand what you mean about her still being physically around him at Ashford, but she was safe from the knowledge that he was Zero. Thats what was most important to him when it came to the situation. Her being around him at school wasnt a problem because she no longer knew about Zero.

I completely respect your opinion. Just that this is what I think.

[bladeofdarkness]

you have the right to think and believe what ever you want
its a free country (the internet is )
i still think that there is some significance of pushing kallen away while kiddnapping nina moments later

[Eliarine]

Originally Posted by incorrupts

Well yeah, we are not using this as Romeo's proof of love for Juliet, we are saying that it was sexual attraction and that might be something ++ compared to the other girls. That a lot of people dismiss it.

And a lot of people see it as a - - compared to the other girls as far as respect is concerned. Can you see Lelouch asking this of Shirley? I can't.

Come to think of it, I could compare this to Kallen realizing Lelouch was too kind to use her feelings for him for his own benefit in episode 22 this time, but lol, not going there again, because OH SHI- I'm not even supposed to be here. 8D

[Frostfire]

Originally Posted by musouka

Do you guys really even understand why he chose Kallen to "comfort" him? It wasn't because he subconsciously loved her, it was because she was the person around, but more importantly, she was the one most likely to do what he wanted. In other words, she was a prime choice because he was aware of her feelings, not because of his own feelings. If he cared so deeply about her, he wouldn't have reduced her to a body part in order to distract himself.

Person around fails. He had plenty of women around during school, Shirley, Milly, and all the other girls that Sayako managed to later make into dates. Do you think Shirley would have been different? That girl would have been just as likely to accept as Kallen if not more so since Shirley's head over heels for the guy and he saw her first. There is no much distinction between Kallen and Shirley in terms of willingness.

In other words, Shirley was first and she was just as much a prime choice and yet wasn't picked. The reason he did anything towards her, was because she managed to get him to act, even if it was negatively, out of his "let's be super happy drugged up teens". Which means, unlike every other girl, she actually realized something was wrong.

... And this isn't even a + for kalulu, what comes after is a plus for Kalulu. Not sure why you are making such a big deal out of something that even the fans don't consider a super-duper plus.

That's also what I mean by "he never lets her in". You might not like to hear it, but having someone you love, someone you want to spend the rest of your life with, means trusting them, and sharing your pain with them. A romantic relationship is a partnership. I won't deny that Lelouch is attracted to Kallen physically, and that he cares about her emotionally, but that doesn't add up to romantic love on his half.

What are you talking about exactly? She's one of the few people he actually trusts and does let into his world. He's shared plenty with her, more so than with Shirley for instance, does that somehow mean that Shirley is not a plausible LI because she's kept out of the loop? Couldn't it be that he keeps the darker parts secret to keep them safe?

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by Eliarine

And a lot of people see it as a - - compared to the other girls as far as respect is concerned. Can you see Lelouch asking this of Shirley? I can't.

Come to think of it, I could compare this to Kallen realizing Lelouch was too kind to use her feelings for him for his own benefit in episode 22 this time, but lol, not going there again, because OH SHI- I'm not even supposed to be here. 8D

Well, sexual attraction is definitely a ++ by default.
And it is not only this, there is feelings-development as well, {the most important part} that makes it, more of complete-level-relationship compared to the others.

Unless we are on Cinderella world.

[bladeofdarkness]

its one more chink in the (paper thin) armor of "just a friend" arguments
push comes to shove, he sees her as a woman

[musouka]

Originally Posted by Frostfire

In other words, Shirley was first and she was just as much a prime choice and yet wasn't picked.

Because he actually sees Shirley as a person, not a warm body.

Originally Posted by Frostfire

He's shared plenty with her, more so than with Shirley for instance, does that somehow mean that Shirley is not a plausible LI because she's kept out of the loop?

Yep, I'd definitely say that Shirley is not a plausible love interest because he keeps her out of the loop. Even more so than Kallen. Also, the blatant disrespect he showed when she was begging him not to take away her memories of him in the first season--he saw her as something to protect, not someone that could stand alongside him as an equal.

Kallen is a little better due to her fighting prowess, but ultimately the same way. That's why I don't ship Lelouch with anyone. He has people he views as "partners" in Suzaku and C.C., but their relationships lack romantic warmth. He has warmth with Kallen and Shirley, but refuses to let them stand beside him as a full partner. Kallen and Shirley could never be with Lelouch, and Suzaku and C.C. could never have a "romance" with Lelouch.

In other words, with Lelouch you're either kept at arm's length against your will, or you're too close and you provide no escape for him. No perfect balance in between for the ideal romantic partner.

[ginran]

Originally Posted by incorrupts

@ginran:: Well, i say that had Lelouch not chosen Zero-path, then Shirlulu would be canon, but alas. 8D

@Sky: lol, I know I know. But my thought is, is that even though the Zero-path kept them apart physically, it didnt mean that Lelouch couldnt have loved her. They couldve still loved each other while being apart, and actually, if you think about it...the arent even apart anymore. But at least you admit they COULD be canon. I feel like Im being too stubborn, Im sorry...

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by musouka

Because he actually sees Shirley as a person, not a warm body.



Yep, I'd definitely say that Shirley is not a plausible love interest because he keeps her out of the loop. Even more so than Kallen. Also, the blatant disrespect he showed when she was begging him not to take away her memories of him in the first season--he saw her as something to protect, not someone that could stand alongside him as an equal.

Kallen is a little better due to her fighting prowess, but ultimately the same way. That's why I don't ship Lelouch with anyone. He has people he views as "partners" in Suzaku and C.C., but their relationships lack romantic warmth. He has warmth with Kallen and Shirley, but refuses to let them stand beside him as a full partner. Kallen and Shirley could never be with Lelouch, and Suzaku and C.C. could never have a "romance" with Lelouch.

In other words, with Lelouch you're either kept at arm's length against your will, or you're too close and you provide no escape for him. No perfect balance in between for the ideal romantic partner.

How do you define "love interest"? Being 24/7 with the other one and being all "rabu-rabu"? This clearly cannot be the case for Lelouch. Nor he can open all of his feelings and let someone in completely. His sister, that is the most important person of all, does not get this treatment either. {in terms, of letting someone in}

We are not arguing about love-interest full mode, we are saying, for whom Lelouch had probably the most romantic feelings for.
Having romantic feelings, does not always equal "let you in completely and sharing every burden with you." Not when we are talking about Lelouch's. Whose nature is so special and complex.

[ginran]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

you have the right to think and believe what ever you want
its a free country (the internet is )
i still think that there is some significance of pushing kallen away while kiddnapping nina moments later

true, true.
except, you have to watch what you say on the internet too, just like IRL, some people arent as respecting of others opinions. Luckily, I havent had that problem here.

[bladeofdarkness]

you keep forgetting that once he started to let kallen in (after ep 7) they actually grow closer (in eps 7-9 she's practiclly his main female partner)
its only he capture that stops this development and once she is captured they dont spend more then half an hour together ever again
he is forced to push her away within 5 minutes of having her by his side again (and even in those 5 minutes they have some development)
he spends much more time with C.C and sheirly and doesnt grow as close

[Frostfire]

Originally Posted by musouka

Because he actually sees Shirley as a person, not a warm body.

Because he sees Kallen as a warm body and not a person? Turn 2 would disagree with you, so would any other turn in which they had long interactions. But the point is that, even if we say that he saw her as nothing more than a warm body, by Turn 10-11 he saw her as something to risk his entire opperation over.

You know, its funny how a show and its development doesn't end at the seventh episode.

In other words, with Lelouch you're either kept at arm's length against your will, or you're too close and you provide no escape for him. No perfect balance in between for the ideal romantic partner.

The argument is, had he not had to do what he did at the end, would he have felt the love needed to follow through with a relationship with someone. The other argument is who he actually loved in a way that could be taken as "I love you dearly" like a lover.

[ginran]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

you keep forgetting that once he started to let kallen in (after ep 7) they actually grow closer (in eps 7-9 she's practiclly his main female partner)
its only he capture that stops this development and once she is captured they dont spend more then half an hour together ever again
he is forced to push her away within 5 minutes of having her by his side again (and even in those 5 minutes they have some development)
he spends much more time with C.C and sheirly and doesnt grow as close

who is this aimed at? sorry, I just wanna make sure Im on the same page here.