Romance in Code Geass (take 4)

[Frostfire]

Originally Posted by Eliarine

Me neither. Though a bigger problem with the thread at hand would probably be the insistence with which some people try to replace Suzaku with their favorite female character altogether. And I don't mean in the romance department.

Now, now. Let's not make stuff up for the sake of having nothing better to say than to sneer at people.

It's like in Bambi, if you have nothing good to say better to say nothing at all.

[Eliarine]

Originally Posted by Frostfire

Now, now. Let's not make stuff up for the sake of having nothing better to say than to sneer at people.

It's like in Bambi, if you have nothing good to say better to say nothing at all.

Feel free to find an excuse to ignore this, dear, it's not like I expected you to deny it. <3

[Grey Dawn]

Originally Posted by Eliarine

Me neither. Though a bigger problem with the thread at hand would probably be the insistence with which some people try to replace Suzaku with their favorite female character altogether. And I don't mean in the romance department.

Contradiction. This is the romance thread, a problem in this thread must be in the romance department or the problem is that it's offtopic. It's also pointlessly ambiguous and not backed up with any evidence at all, in addition to being irrelevant to the current conversation.

[Frostfire]

Originally Posted by Eliarine

Feel free to find an excuse to ignore this, dear, it's not like I expected you to deny it. <3

If you want people to take you seriously, and not as a bag of hot air with a hole in it that screams to be heard, perhaps you could actually point out where such off-topicness even has occured in this thread.

Not a single person has said that Suzaku is beaten out by any of the female cast in terms of who he was to Lelouch as a friend. Though, for you of course, Lelouch not being into Suzaku seems to be horrifying and you seem to like taking it out on anyone who actually uses this thread for the threads purpose... and not, you know, what you're doing. Whining.

But if you want to keep being off-topic and making baseless claims, maybe I'll use that nice report feature for being incredibly off-topic.

[Eliarine]

Originally Posted by Grey Dawn

Contradiction. This is the romance thread, a problem in this thread must be in the romance department or the problem is that it's offtopic. It's also pointlessly ambiguous and not backed up with any evidence at all, in addition to being irrelevant to the current conversation.

Not when you people keep trying to use it as "proofs" that Kallen received special treatement from Lelouch, thus meaning that he could only be head over heels for her.

To use one of Frostfire's favorite expressions, "did you miss" every post in this thread and Kallen's? I could find you the exact quotes if you'd like. From the analysis suggesting that "Lelouch and Suzaku can do anything together" somehow only works when Kallen is there too, to the jewel that was the theory of Lelouch only choosing CC and Suzaku as sword and shield because he wanted Kallen safe and needed replacements. There was also the intense RAGE at Suzaku stealing Kallen's place by Lelouch's side when he became Knight of Zero. Lelouch's panic when Kallen got taken away from him gets constantly used as a proof that he nearly put her on the same level as Nunally, but his passionate attitude towards Suzaku during both seasons isn't apparently enough to prevent people from questionning Nogi's objectivity when she says Suzaku might very well be Lelouch's second most important person.

There's more, but of course I made up all of the above, so feel free to report me for being frighteningly off-topic. That'll be all from me for tonight, I'll leave you to your fascinating analysis of Code Shôjô: Kallen of the love attack.

[Grey Dawn]

Your wild exaggerations, assumptions, and mockery won't earn you any points. Come back when you have something of substinance to say.

[Frostfire]

I spy with my little eye a lot of hyperboles.

Originally Posted by Eliarine

I could find you the exact quotes if you'd like. From the analysis suggesting that "Lelouch and Suzaku can do anything together" somehow only works when Kallen is there too,.

No one has said such a thing, what people have said:
- Kallen would have made ZR much easier.
- Lelouch risked his mission by not involving her as she nearly kills him much to his suprise.

But if you have a specific quote that says "OMG LELOUCH FAILS WITHOUT KALLEN!!!" please, go ahead and find it to show it to us all.

Originally Posted by Eliarine

To the jewel that was the theory of Lelouch only choosing CC and Suzaku as sword and shield because he wanted Kallen safe and needed replacements.

I don't think this was ever said either, the only thing I remember said on this topic was that Lelouch's new sword and shield were destroyed by his old sword and shield. In affect they are replacements quite literally because through the entire show she was his sword and shield. When someone gets a new sword and shield it is to replace ones that were lost. You're the only one applying a negative connotation to the world "replacement".

Originally Posted by Eliarine

There was also the intense RAGE at Suzaku stealing Kallen's place by Lelouch's side when he became Knight of Zero.

This was months ago. Why don't you complain about all the people who bitched about Suzaku not being with Lelouch from Stage 1 Season 1?

Originally Posted by Eliarine

Lelouch's panic when Kallen got taken away from him gets constantly used as a proof that he nearly put her on the same level as Nunally, but his passionate attitude towards Suzaku during both seasons isn't apparently enough to prevent people from questionning Nogi's objectivity when she says Suzaku might very well be Lelouch's second most important person.

I don't remember this discussion at all, the only thing I remember being questioned was on the topic of Lelouch's sexuality. But, you seem to have missed the corralation that people make between Turn 10 and Stage 25, the one where Lelouch acts the same way. If you want to ignore what he says in the show, that she and Nunally are precious to him, feel free to. I, however, don't think anyone said Kallen was as or more important, just close to it. I'd say his important people are quite simply Nunally, Suzaku, and Kallen in that order, since your only qualms seem to be with Suzaku's place you should have no problem with that, correct?

Originally Posted by Eliarine

There's more, but of course I made up all of the above, so feel free to report me for being frighteningly off-topic. That'll be all from me for tonight, I'll leave you to your fascinating analysis of Code Shôjô: Kallen of the love attack.

No you simply exagurated everything to suit you.

[yvj]

Originally Posted by Eliarine

Code Shôjô: Kallen of the love attack.

OMG I just messed my pants. I so wish this is what the show was about. It would be so cash.

It's come to the point where I don't even think people read the posts anymore. Either that or some pick one argument they don't like from one person and instead of pointing that out to the person directly they use it as an excuse to make baseless claims and ignore other points from other people.

[bladeofdarkness]

A)the sword and shield line is in refrence to suzaku (and C.C) taking kallens place as lelouch's "knight" (protector)
unlike GS lelouch wasnt a fighter like kira
he's a strategist, and he has his knight to protect him and slay his most powerful enemies
up to ep 20 that role was kallens (both protector and fighter)
when suzaku and lelouch joined forces and kallen was left out of ZERO-R, suzaku replaced her as lelouch's "knight"
why does that matter ?
becouse you have to remember what a knights role IS
"knight"s role is to defend their master even if it means their own deaths (which kallen was shown to be more then willing to do)
which means that the formula breaks down if the master considers the life of their knight's to be more importent then their own
does this reflect on suzaku's importence to lelouch when compared to kallen
not really, since its like comparing atruran and lacus in their importance to kira (two completely different fields of importance, that cant be mesured)
but it does show a difference in lelouch's views of kallen between ep 19 and 22

[Nogitsune]

*hugs Eliarine*

Originally Posted by Frostfire

I don't think this was ever said either, the only thing I remember said on this topic was that Lelouch's new sword and shield were destroyed by his old sword and shield. In affect they are replacements quite literally because through the entire show she was his sword and shield. When someone gets a new sword and shield it is to replace ones that were lost. You're the only one applying a negative connotation to the world "replacement".

The thing is, "replacement" is a negative term in this context.
If a girl breaks up with her boyfriend, falls for someone else and then calls him that, it might be technically correct, but it's not accurate, and I doubt the guy would be too happy about it if they got together.

Also, I don't see the point in comparing Kallen to Suzaku here. But if you really want to, I'll do what I already did the last time this came up and say that if there's a replacement, it's Kallen.
Suzaku could be considered Lelouch's sword even in their early childhood. He was his sword (or shield) right in the first episode, when he took the bullet for him, and he was his sword when Mao threatened what was most precious to Lelouch.
But even if you don't consider that enough to call him his "knight", then Kallen can still be considered a substitute. It was always Suzaku whom Lelouch wanted by his side, and I'm quite sure that during the first season, he wouldn't have hesistated if he could have had him - even if it would have meant giving up another ace pilot.
At the beginning, he didn't care much about Kallen, and he only settled for her because he couldn't have Suzaku. Not that he wouldn't have kept her around and eventually grown fond of her, anyway, but calling Suzaku a replacement just doesn't seem appropriate to me.

With C.C... well, she did watch Lelouch from the very beginning, and she did take a bullet for him and made it possible that the anime could progress past the first episode with the main character intact.
But I don't like this replacement thing one way or another, so I'll leave it at that.

I'd say his important people are quite simply Nunally, Suzaku, and Kallen in that order, since your only qualms seem to be with Suzaku's place you should have no problem with that, correct?

*adds Shirley and C.C. to the list, right besides Kallen, an puts a "most" before the "important"*
I don't know about my soulmate (or maybe I do, because... well, she's my soulmate!), but I like it now. *-*

[Levy]

@Nogitsune: pretty good examples of how the 'replacement' thing is detrimental for any accurate picture of the real 'weight' given to the different relationships Lelouch had overall.
And I sign your correction to Frost's "ranking of Lelouch's precious ones", of course.

[bladeofdarkness]

the child argument fails becouse he didnt NEED a sword back then
he wasnt fighting any war with anyone and didnt need a weapon
suzaku was his first and best friend (which is his role in the show, along with later on worst enemy)
he took a bullet for him in ep 1 and helped him against mao becouse he was his FRIEND (and he had a deathwish)
he may have wanted suzaku to join him in season 1, he only wanted that AFTER he found out that suzaku was the pilot of the lancelot
before that he had a different role in mind for him, as nunnalys "knight" and not his own (his words)
and that no longer apply in season 2 until ep 21 (which is still unexplained) and in ep 17 when he meets him again its again only for one reason (protecting nunnaly)

by contrast kallen spent the entire first season protecting him (often from suzaku) since ep 2 WITHOUT EVEN KNOWING WHO HE IS (let alone friendship)
and come season 2 she now knows who he is but still protects him from just about anyone (rolo,suzaku,KoR,xing-ke)
this is made even more clear by kallen actually protecting him using her own body as a shield at 3 different times (once she was protecting C.C without knowing)
her role in the show was cemented early on as lelouch's shield
and unlike C.C or suzaku kallen is
A)not immortal
B)not older and wiser (read: jaded and cynical)
C)does not have a death wish (and in fact has her own reasons to live, and her own dream)
the fact that suzaku replaced her in the role of lelouch's sword means that suzaku filled the role the during the entire 45 eps before it was played by kallen
dont read too much into it being good or bad
its just a fact

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

the child argument fails becouse he didnt NEED a sword back then
he wasnt fighting any war with anyone and didnt need a weapon
suzaku was his first and best friend (which is his role in the show, along with later on worst enemy)

*points at the Stage 0 novel and Suzaku's remark in the anime about "returning a favour from seven years ago"*
As far as I know, that one novel is pretty close to being canon because of the background information the writer got for it, and in there, Suzaku definitely was Lelouch's "sword" (just like Lelouch was his, in a way, which is why this whole sword thing seems rather pointless to me as long as the term isn't used in the anime itself, which only happens during Zero Requiem).

he took a bullet for him in ep 1 and helped him against mao becouse he was his FRIEND (and he had a deathwish)

I don't disagree.

he may have wanted suzaku to join him in season 1, he only wanted that AFTER he found out that suzaku was the pilot of the lancelot

Hu?
Maybe you should re-watch the first season.
Beside the Orange incident, there were several occasions were it became clear how much Lelouch wanted Suzaku on his side. Like episode 9, in which he mumbles to himself about his friend going back to the military and doesn't even notice Shirley talking to him, or when he (more or less) argues with Suzaku before that.

before that he had a different role in mind for him, as nunnalys "knight" and not his own (his words)

From my point of view, there's not much of a difference.
At that time, Lelouch needed someone to take care of Nunally in his place more than another knight. But he wanted him on his side - badly.

and that no longer apply in season 2 until ep 21 (which is still unexplained) and in ep 17 when he meets him again its again only for one reason (protecting nunnaly)

Well, considering that Lelouch killed Euphie...
At the beginning of the second season, however, Lelouch asks himself if friendship can "coexist with justice".

her role in the show was cemented early on as lelouch's shield

And sword?
The anime didn't say that.
It's one way to put it.

and unlike C.C or suzaku kallen is
A)not immortal
B)not older and wiser (read: jaded and cynical)
C)does not have a death wish (and in fact has her own reasons to live, and her own dream)
the fact that suzaku replaced her in the role of lelouch's sword means that suzaku filled the role the during the entire 45 eps before it was played by kallen
dont read too much into it being good or bad
its just a fact

I disagree, and even if I didn't, she'd still be a "substitute" if I went along with this.
I agree with Levy, though. This comparison is pointless and doesn't do any of the characters and their relationship with Lelouch justice.

[bladeofdarkness]

but thats just it
your comparison would fail if suzaku and kallens roles were limited to mearly "his sword or shield" (and the anime did have her go against his most powerful enemies, and the poem does also mention it, since you asked about the sword bit)
suzaku a role greater then just his sword and so did kallen
but within those roles there were other smaller roles
and one of those roles were the role of his protector
and you cant credibly give that role over to the guy who spent most of the show (45 eps is 90%) as his enemy (even if they didnt know who they were) and say the one who spend 90% of the show protecting him is the replacement
it just makes no sense

P.S
novels arent canon.

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

but thats just it
your comparison would fail if suzaku and kallens roles were limited to mearly "his sword or shield" (and the anime did have her go against his most powerful enemies, and the poem does also mention it, since you asked about the sword bit)
suzaku a role greater then just his sword and so did kallen
but within those roles there were other smaller roles
and one of those roles were the role of his protector
and you cant credibly give that role over to the guy who spent most of the show (45 eps is 90%) as his enemy (even if they didnt know who they were) and say the one who spend 90% of the show protecting him is the replacement
it just makes no sense

I was mostly talking about "sword", not "shield", and I also stated that I think there's no point in using the word "replacement" in the first place.
Kallen was Lelouch's protector and ace pilot, and probably his most loyal follower amongst the Black Knights.
Suzaku was the person Lelouch wanted on his side right from the first episode, and Lelouch's chosen Knight of Zero - his double-edged sword, if you want to put it that way.
And still, they were much more than that.

To my knowledge, Stage 0 is what I call "pretty canon", because the writer got background information for it.

[bladeofdarkness]

he never wanted suzaku to join the OOBK (lelouch's army) at all
he wanted him by his side since they were best friends, but he didnt wanted him fighting for him (before ep 18 at least)
i dont quite get what you mean by wanted him at his side other then what he already was in ashford ?

and no
novals arent canon

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

he never wanted suzaku to join the OOBK (lelouch's army) at all
he wanted him by his side since they were best friends, but he didnt wanted him fighting for him (before ep 18 at least)
i dont quite get what you mean by wanted him at his side other then what he already was in ashford ?

I'm talking about how he asked Suzaku as Zero to join him, even before he knew that Suzaku piloted the Lancelot (Orange incident).
And with "side", I mean the side that isn't Britannia, but those who oppose it - Zero's side.

and no
novals arent canon

I'm not talking about all the novels.
Just Stage 0. And repeating yourself when I'm almost completely sure that the writer got information by the staff for it won't change anything.
If I'm wrong, and there's someone who is 100% certain and can explain to me what I misunderstood, they are free to do so, but other than that... well, this won't get us anywhere.

[Eliarine]

Originally Posted by Grey Dawn

Your wild exaggerations, assumptions, and mockery won't earn you any points. Come back when you have something of substinance to say.

It's okay, I know those can be pretty unsettling and annoying. Which makes the fact that they weren't made up all the more sad. You really should do something about those memory lapses before someone gets the wrong idea and thinks you're being selectively forgetful.

Here, have an imaginary quote:

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

he ended up getting a new sword and shield (two people, doing what was once a one woman job) becouse he needed them
becouse he couldnt have kallen serving in that role anymore (the one being protected, cant afford to value the life of the one protecting him over his own)

Lelouch made Suzaku and CC his sword and shield because he couldn't have Kallen. Check. Oh, is that you very much not disagreeing in the following post, Frost? I believe it is. Kindly refer to Nogitsune's answer to the ~replacements~ business, since she managed to read my mind again (love you bb <3).

Originally Posted by Frostfire

No one has said such a thing, what people have said:
- Kallen would have made ZR much easier.
- Lelouch risked his mission by not involving her as she nearly kills him much to his suprise.

But if you have a specific quote that says "OMG LELOUCH FAILS WITHOUT KALLEN!!!" please, go ahead and find it to show it to us all.

Ah, thanks for saving me the trouble of hunting those myself. Why, this is indeed radically different from suggesting that the "can do anything together" statement only works on the condition that Kallen is not there. Or there, depending on the side she's on. My bad.

Maybe they should have made that "together we shall stop the Freyaaaaaaa" scene you seem to hate so much even more spectacular and over-the-top, seeing as even then you seem to have missed the point about Lelouch and Suzaku being unbeatable together. Kallen not being by his side did make things more risky and difficult, but Lelouch believed in his ability to make anything possible with Suzaku and that is what allowed him to ensure that his closest people were allowed a future. This is an anime, not a realistic documentary about Koalas. "There's got to be a reason" they kept quoting that statement again and again and used it efficiently in the end. I'm a lot more inclined to believe what the show kept reminding us of than your elucubrations, especially when the alternative is that Lelouch was somehow willing to put Kallen's well-being before the Requiem itself, which would help your pairing tremendously but doesn't make much sense when looking at the series' end and Lelouch's mindset.

Lelouch was not going for easy, he was going for the completion of his plan while tainting as little close people as possible. Like it or not he managed both, albeit with difficulties.

Originally Posted by Frostfire

I don't remember this discussion at all, the only thing I remember being questioned was on the topic of Lelouch's sexuality. But, you seem to have missed the corralation that people make between Turn 10 and Stage 25, the one where Lelouch acts the same way. If you want to ignore what he says in the show, that she and Nunally are precious to him, feel free to. I, however, don't think anyone said Kallen was as or more important, just close to it. I'd say his important people are quite simply Nunally, Suzaku, and Kallen in that order, since your only qualms seem to be with Suzaku's place you should have no problem with that, correct?

Yes! Except no. Kallen was very, very important to Lelouch, but so were C.C and Shirley, for whom Lelouch did go into panics too. He loved her very much, she just wasn't as special a little snowflake as you're making her out to be. So this is where I'll agree with my soulmates' version of Lelouch's list of precious people and further comments since they covered the rest~ (luff you girls <3)

Now someone rename this thread the Kalulu private sandbox so we can stop pretending that anyone else is welcome here.

[bladeofdarkness]

lelouch didnt MAKE suzaku and C.C into his sword and shield thingy
it was suzaku who said that part
and like it or not it WAS a one woman job up till ZERO-R
which is what the point of that whole sentence you quoted, they both filled a role that was originally kallen's
thats it

and lelouch and suzaku can do ANYTHING together
thats why lelouch brainwashes an entire army to be his new puppets and kiddnaps nina to help deal with the freya
the anime did make a constent point of stating that together they can do anything
but they didnt do it ALONE
they had an entire ARMY helping them on it
and they still almost lost (would have lost had shnizel not been a complete idiot during the last act)
forget shnizel, the OOBK alone was more powerful then them and lelouch needed to blow up mount fuji to keep them from beating him (but you can consider that his win in that regard i suppose)
lelouch can do what ever he wants as long as he doesnt mine letting himself become a monster in order to do it (which is why he is able to take over the britannian empire within a month of being exiled from the OOBK)
that would be more accurate

so the equation isnt "lelouch and suzaku can do anything" only works when kallen is included, like you pointed out jokingly
its "lelouch and suzaku can do anything" if given what they need to pull it off (in this case an army, a freya canceller and a retard for an enemy)
under those conditions (accepting that they need more then just each other) having kallen with him would have made it much easier
lelouch's deceision to nevertheless exclude her from it at great risk (or at least add difficulty) to the plan, while pulling people like suzaku, C.C, nina, jeremia and sayoko into it, is significant
when he came up with this plan, why did he not show that kind of care for any of their futures ?

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

lelouch didnt MAKE suzaku and C.C into his sword and shield thingy

No. He made Suzaku into his Knight of Zero and accepted the comfort C.C. offered him.
Not that it makes much of a difference.

and like it or not it WAS a one woman job up till ZERO-R
which is what the point of that whole sentence you quoted, they both filled a role that was originally kallen's
thats it

Kallen always gave Lelouch hugs when he was close to a break-down?
And here I thought that had been C.C.'s job first.
People here keep forgetting that with "shield", Suzaku didn't mean C.C. taking bullets for Lelouch or jumping in front of him with her Knightmare.

so the equation isnt "lelouch and suzaku can do anything" only works when kallen is included, like you pointed out jokingly
its "lelouch and suzaku can do anything" if given what they need to pull it off (in this case an army, a freya canceller and a retard for an enemy)

Everything else would have made the show a bit... boring.
That doesn't change the fact that Lelouch and Suzaku had absolute faith in each other's abilities.

under those conditions (accepting that they need more then just each other) having kallen with him would have made it much easier

It would have, but I'm with Eliarine (I love you too, my awesome soulmate!) here.
Kallen wasn't more important than Zero Requiem. If Lelouch hadn't believed that he and Suzaku could do it, he wouldn't have risked everything for her.
And if he'd lost, her future wouldn't have looked too nice, either, with Schneizel in charge.

lelouch's deceision to nevertheless exclude her from it at great risk (or at least add difficulty) to the plan, while pulling people like suzaku, C.C, nina, jeremia and sayoko into it, is significant
when he came up with this plan, why did he not show that kind of care for any of their futures ?

Because Lelouch was madly in love with Kallen. She was far more important to him than all those insignificant people.
Who needs best friends and equals, anyway?

Sorry, but this argument is pointless. You can see Lelouch leaving Kallen out of Zero Requiem as a hint for romance, but it doesn't make her his most important person.
Suzaku and C.C. had nothing to lose, and everyone else you listed was less important to him than those two and Kallen. Not to mention that Jeremiah and Sayako are "knights" - it's their purpose in life to follow their king until the end.
And Nina created Fleya. Just like Lelouch and Suzaku, she wanted to "redeem" herself.