Mobile Suit Gundam 00 Second Season - Episode 22 Discussion / Poll

[kakakka]

Don't you see this episode ends that notion for him? He WAS defeated (In the ultimate FLAG)

I saw...But I think I see it in a different way. He was using the ultimate Flag alright, but masked? Susanoo represented for me that Graham forcing himself being Mr. Bushido. He deluded himself of this warrior code just to defeat the being that he believed tarnished his whole being. But in the end, all it does is degrade himself. When the Susanoo was unmasked, it was a sign for Graham to abandon that twisted ideal and recollect/reflect on what his real purpose on fighting.

I don't disagree Graham might pilot 0 Gundam, but he's more of need to rediscover himself right now IMO, which is a great way to portray by reintroducing him with a Flag, without the silly mask.

[wingdarkness]

Originally Posted by kakakka

I saw...But I think I see it in a different way. He was using the ultimate Flag alright, but masked? Susanoo represented for me that Graham forcing himself being Mr. Bushido. He deluded himself of this warrior code just to defeat the being that he believed tarnished his whole being. But in the end, all it does is degrade himself. When the Susanoo was unmasked, it was a sign for Graham to abandon that twisted ideal and recollect/reflect on what his purpose on fighting.

His goal was to fight the Gundam on par with a FLAG level MS...He also incorporated the Samurai code into this quest...He got the cathartic jolt of having Setsuna permit an honorable duel of swords...On all levels he is defeated...He's reached the apex of his characters' desire...All that's left is death or to fight for the future...When that mask came off of Susanoo it was the symbolism of his character on whole, but alas, shattered mask and all, he was clearly defeated...With all the symbolism of death and rebirth in this show, it would be perfectly symbolic to have his "rebirth" come via the legendary suit that started it all...He has nothing left to prove as a FLAG FIGHTER...The entirety of his journey in that "mode" was concluded when Setsuna defeated him (As per his desire--He put everything, all their history with Gundam, everything into that last battle, so to lose that battle was to lose everything)...He's the perfect candidate to pilot Gundam O under this scenario...To me it brings his character full circle...To choose to live and to do it fighting in the suit that embodied his passion all series...It's TOO perfect IMO...

[kakakka]

His goal was to fight the Gundam on par with a FLAG level MS...He also incorporated the Samurai code into this quest...He got the cathartic jolt of having Setsuna permit an honorable duel of swords...

Signs he was deluded by many things.

Shit I got the feel of talking more about my views of Graham Aker But I'll make it short, I really don't want to drag this (Uhmmm yeahhhh). When Graham was floating on space this episode, I really felt that he came to realization "Why am I doing this?" "Did I really limit myself that much, that I'll take defeat as death?" Because remember, Graham was not that kind of pilot in the first half of 00 s1. He was a guy who take defeat as a lesson and move to improving. He also didn't limit himself as much (remember, he pushed himself to the limit everytime). I feel his regret of building himself as Mr. Bushido right there. I also feel that scene was a sign of a possible "re awakening" of what Graham really is.
Now about the Flag, it was a MS that is very close to his identity. I mean, talk about Flag MS and people will remember Graham Aker. They are almost one identity. If Graham is going to "re-collect" what he really is, it just make sense to me to bring that Flag with him again. Not as Masked Flag Susanoo or Masurao, as a Flag, a MS not hidding its own identity.

I don't disagree Graham might pilot 0 Gundam, but he's more of need to rediscover himself right now IMO, which is a great way to portray by reintroducing him with a Flag, without the silly mask.

[C.A.]

I thought this episode already explained Graham and Bushido clearly, but people still don't get it.

Back in Season 1, Graham originally was just someone who wants to defeat the Gundams, because CB is a 'terrorist organisation' threatening freedom and peace.

It then became revenge and pride for his fellow Flag fighters, it no longer is a fight for freedom and peace. This is the 'distortion' Setsuna told him, he already lost his original meaning to fight and has strayed off his path.

Graham himself can no longer see the path, he has lost it, and the one who told him so was this boy, Setsuna, who himself is fighting and can only fight. He cannot see the reason why Setsuna fights, he doesn't know why he fights.

As he converts to Bushido, he takes on the way of Bushido(Warrior's way) and will take on the form of a Shura(one who seeks carnage). He has lost all of himself and everything else, the only thing he can do and can only think of doing now is fight. He thinks that taking on this form is the only thing he can do, as he will eventually meet the boy again at the peak of fighting and finish it.

And in this episode he finally arrives at the peak and gets to fight Setsuna. But at the end of the fight he learns that he really was distorted as Setsuna said. Right from the start Setsuna had a reason to fight and fighting was the only way to achieve what he wants, a future for humanity. Graham realises he misunderstood Setsuna and even became what he misunderstood. Setsuna has defeated him in everything, right from the start.
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And for the 'why didn't Ribbons clone earlier', 'why didn't they use the smoke bomb earlier'.

Why didn't they use the atomic bomb earlier and save several million more lives?

Why clone Ali, Graham or whoever if any of those Alis and Grahams would have a chance to double cross or stop fighting and screw up everything. What Ribbons want is a remote controlled army with GPS, wireless communication and camera already installed. Ribbons wants Innovators and Innovators only.

And we don't even know what Ribbons is really planning yet, we don't know if that plan requires stalling the roll out of the clone army and their mechs.

[KaiDamien]

I feel really sad for Billy, im sure you guys know why.

[Revolutionist]

If Graham hadn't traded his katanas for those stupid looking solid blades he would've won

[kakakka]

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

If Graham hadn't traded his katanas for those stupid looking solid blades he would've won

LOL. He was so prepared for the GN-Field. Setsuna didn't even used it.

[justpassingby]

Originally Posted by C.A.

Why didn't they use the atomic bomb earlier and save several million more lives?

Because they all follow General Revil's Atlantic Treaty..... oh wait wrong series
Did they even mentioned nuclear generators, weapons and stuffs in 00?

[C.A.]

Originally Posted by justpassingby

Because they all follow General Revil's Atlantic Treaty..... oh wait wrong series
Did they even mentioned nuclear generators, weapons and stuffs in 00?

Well, I'm pointing to WWII actually.

Nuclear energy was not mentioned, but they have no need for it since they have solar energy.

[wingdarkness]

Originally Posted by C.A.

Back in Season 1, Graham originally was just someone who wants to defeat the Gundams, because CB is a 'terrorist organisation' threatening freedom and peace...

Setsuna has defeated him in everything, right from the start.

I agree with pretty much everything but this; Although it seems you are characterizing him morso in-terms of Setsuna than in-terms of himself...Setuna's reasoning for fighting early on were just as misunderstood and he equally didn't understand why Graham fought for the expression of it all...What I find fairly ironic is that the Setsuna of S1 was fighting for a very discipline goal while S2 Setsuna fights more based on his own expression...S1 Graham fights based mostly on expression, while S2 Graham fights by and large based on the discipline goals of the Samurai code...So i kinda disagree with the notion Setsuna had him beat from the start (existentially that is)...

Back to my main point though, originally Graham wanted to fight the Gundam because it was the most impressive suit he had ever layed his eyes upon, and he wanted to compete with it and then ultimately defeat it...It wasn't until the Gundams started to be absolutely unstopple that his, boyish, almost crush-like emotions toward the suit turned into a seriousness that put freedom and peace into question...There were many instances that his own personal quest to compete with the Gundams trumped individual or overarching goals like protecting the sanctity of nations' liberties or whatever...He actually wanted to fight Exia when it was delivering the Muslim leader, but used the bad-press as his only excuse...So he never really used the whole political aspect (of freedom and peace) as being something that drove him in his quest to fight the gundams...He did what he had to do as an obedient soldier and commander, but other than the deaths that effected him personally (or some idle chit-chat here and there) he never really showed favor toward the aspect you are describing here...

As for the rest, I think I'm near the mountaintop when it comes to understanding his character because I'm fascinated with every mask character in general and everything that made him the maskedman specifically and I'm about as prideful as Graham is in defending that claim...He's my favorite character and I feel like I understand the lion-share of his character as good as anyone I've met during the duration of this series...If that means anything...

[kakakka]

Setuna's reasoning for fighting early on were just as misunderstood and he equally didn't understand why Graham fought for the expression of it all...What I find fairly ironic is that the Setsuna of S1 was fighting for a very discipline goal while S2 Setsuna fights more based on his own expression...S1 Graham fights based mostly on expression, while S2 Graham fights by and large based on the discipline goals of the Samurai code...

They are contrast/foil to each other really. One of the reason why I find his character interesting.

[DragoZERO]

Originally Posted by Nvis

That's not totalled. The Drei before being destroyed is TOTALLED.

Given the time from when he dropped off the Exia, it would be repaired 100% by now after 20 episodes....

Good point, but everyone would rather see 0 Gundam instead of Exia. That's what it really comes down to.

Originally Posted by KaiDamien

I feel really sad for Billy, im sure you guys know why.

Its his own damn fault. She talked to twice, if that, about the fight with Celestial Being and all that. I mean, you get to spend four years with a women like that, even though she was a drunk most of the time, is better than living alone. He is just sad because Setsuna took away the only woman he had a chance with.

[C.A.]

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

As for the rest, I think I'm near the mountaintop when it comes to understanding his character because I'm fascinated with every mask character in general and everything that made him the maskedman specifically and I'm about as prideful as Graham is in defending that claim...He's my favorite character and I feel like I understand the lion-share of his character as good as anyone I've met during the duration of this series...If that means anything...

I think you're indeed on the mountaintop lol

I agree with you too, frankly I don't remember exactly what was in S1 anymore lol, you reminded me well.

I guess he was really enjoying piloting and the Flag, but starts experiencing stuff like the loss of his comrades and defeat at the hands of Exia. This changed him from what he originally was.

Setsuna at some point understood why he's fighting, probably because of Marina and Lockon.

Setsuna gained a reason while Graham lost his.

[brightman]

Originally Posted by Nvis

That's not totalled. The Drei before being destroyed is TOTALLED.

Given the time from when he dropped off the Exia, it would be repaired 100% by now after 20 episodes....

If they bring back Exia, they might as well bring back Dynames and Nadleeh too... They weren't in bad shape either...

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

Good point, but everyone would rather see 0 Gundam instead of Exia. That's what it really comes down to.

Ditto. That's about the ONLY reason.

[wingdarkness]

Originally Posted by C.A.

I think you're indeed on the mountaintop lol

I agree with you too, frankly I don't remember exactly what was in S1 anymore lol, you reminded me well.

I guess he was really enjoying piloting and the Flag, but starts experiencing stuff like the loss of his comrades and defeat at the hands of Exia. This changed him from what he originally was.

Setsuna at some point understood why he's fighting, probably because of Marina and Lockon.

Setsuna gained a reason while Graham lost his.

LOL, Oh I'm sorry i thought we might go hardcore on this...You know how I get sometimes...The way you started your post made me think you wanted to do this thing^^...

Originally Posted by brightman

Ditto. That's about the ONLY reason.

Aw man...I thought you'd love this too given the Rx-78 avys you've always had since I've known you...

[brightman]

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

Aw man...I thought you'd love this too given the Rx-78 avys you've always had since I've known you...

Hey I didn't say I didn't love this...

Of course, I'd love it even more if the animation suffers a horrible quality drop the moment 0 Gundam shows up... That'd be the ultimate homage. And I can actually use it for my avatars

[Cox]

Oh maybe a Combat Type Setsuna will come out in a fake 00 Gundam to fight him :O lol brain is going crazy!

[Okamidum]

Originally Posted by Cox

Oh maybe a Combat Type Setsuna will come out in a fake 00 Gundam to fight him :O lol brain is going crazy!

Haha you never know....can you imagine if Ribbons made 1000 Tieria's just to mess with CB.

[wingdarkness]

Not that it will happen, but given the fact that we know Ribbons can control Innovators via QB mindrape, wouldn't it be dope if he sent all the Bring and Devine clones to fight CB and almost like a Kaga-Bushinn he goes from clone-to-clone controlling their movements, if not being able to control them all simultaneously as an extention of himself?? THAT would be something to see if not a $hitstorm to deal with...

@brightman - I hope you get that screen-capture button ready next week, cause you're gonna get a GOOD one!

[C.A.]

GN-Bits? I'd love to see D.O.M.E., I mean Veda + Ribbons using the clones as GN-Bits.