Clannad ~After Story~ - Episode 22 Discussion / Poll [END]

[Nosauz]

Originally Posted by Master Chibi

Well to be blunt if I have to play a game to better enjoy another form of media then it practically feels like I'm doing homework, especially when it should be standard fare that either form of the series should be fine on its own. One can lead to being enjoyed from the other, but one should not be enjoyed better by having it be a prerequisite.

:P

that was not my point, my point was the anime was a lot more clearer about the connection between tomoya and the illusory world, I never said you had to play the game to get it, if you can't fathom the clues that are laid out infront of you then thats your own indifference to the show which begs the question, why did you watch the show?

Originally Posted by Missa Rei

That's one of the limitations of adapting multi-path games, ESPECIALLY ones where there's a 'Normal' ending, and a 'True' ending that usually only becomes available after doing all the OTHER routes. Heart de Roommate for example...

please don't bring up that true ending, because it really ruined her route... jesus, I thought I had gotten over it but GOD DAMN YOU, you have reopened the wound in my heart...

[Myssa Rei]

Originally Posted by Master Chibi

Dude, that's also been my biggest problem with this series, where have you been?

I was one of the first people who reacted to the ending, Chibi. Lessee, the majority of page 3 to 5 was me, Proto, NeoTwister5, and Kaioshin-Sama arguing about the varied reactions to it. Family and Suspension of Disbelief come up often.

[Master Chibi]

Originally Posted by Nosauz

that was not my point, my point was the anime was a lot more clearer about the connection between tomoya and the illusory world, I never said you had to play the game to get it, if you can't fathom the clues that are laid out infront of you then thats your own indifference to the show which begs the question, why did you watch the show?

My reply was to Myssa, not you, sorry about the confusion.

But hey, if you want to give me 'negative rep' for not getting it like three other people did already, join the club.

D:

Originally Posted by Myssa Rei

I was one of the first people who reacted to the ending, Chibi. Lessee, the majority of page 3 to 5 was me, Proto, NeoTwister5, and Kaioshin-Sama arguing about the varied reactions to the ending.

I'm talking about since this show started, not the past three pages.

[Myssa Rei]

Chibi: Well, the thing is I hadn't enrolled in my post-Grad at that point. I've only been recently paying attention to narrative conventions, form and structure, and whatnot in the series since, well, I get hammered by the concepts every time I go to class on Saturdays.

In traditional, linear storytelling, CLANNAD fails in its execution of the ending, hard -- in fact, I'm sure that if I tried to pull off what Jun Maeda did with the final scenario, I'd fail at my course. However, the source material is NON-LINEAR, so KyoAni deserves credit at making do with what they had.

[Ice Block]

Hmm...

First of all, why does everyone assume the last episode -- or at least the one labeled by the animation company, broadcasting station or sponsors as such -- to be the BEST episode in the series? Series endings are usually both:

1. [partly] conclusive (or inconclusive in the case of a cliffhanger), and
2. have a substantial amount of fanservice in any form -- which is not only limited to skin exposure, physical interactions and the like, but also include:
   • a happy ending
   • the appearance of the entire cast
   • a cameo character / a reference to some obscure plot
   • a series in-joke / acknowledgment of a fan product or meme

Note that [partly] could cover 1/1000 to 999/1000 of the series' plot or themes

Now, I consider Episode 18 to be the highest point of the whole series. In my opinion, NOTHING from Key will ever come close to this (plus the latter half of Episode 19). If we skipped all other routes, the magical stuff and the Illusionary World, this is where the series would most likely end. However, that is not the path KyoAni took, so the show must go on to tie up one more unresolved plotline.

On the case of this series ender, I consider the whole time warp -> reset -> profit bit pure fanservice (though not baseless fanservice). I understand why people may not be overly excited or pleased over this ending since it somehow cheapens the events following Episode 16. However, what I cannot understand is why people rage and whine about their magical unrealism and unsupported deus ex machina ending. What with all the references to the Illusionary World spread out through both seasons, plus the explanations of the Light Orbs from Yukine, Shima, Illusionary World Ushio and whoever else I missed, its hard to not have grasped or even simply had an idea of the situation at hand.

Come on, if you couldn't guess that these magical things were going to be used or utilized to gain something... well, uhmm, l2watch? Gratz on being bad.

__________

Enough of that. Now, on the episode itself... As a game player, I am very pleased with how the choice at the hill was made. As a previous poster said, merely calling out was not enough. Tomoya literally grabbed Nagisa's attention back there.

I'm also relieved they shortened the whole panorama-esque sequence. I believe it lasted a whole five minutes in the game. Anyway, it was nice to finally hear "A Tiny Palm" again, along with quick scenes of the entire cast (fancervice ) sans Kappei, the poor neglected kid.

Now, I only have one statement regarding Fuko's ending hijack: KyoAni's faithfulness to the source material is scary.

[atividia]

Wow, so the episodes since Nagisa's death were a total waste of my time? This might be one of the few times where my opinion of a series totally died on the last episode.

1/10 for being able to unrealistically undo the crap that happens in life. As much as their deaths really sucked, at least it fit the direction of the story. However, the fact that everything is suddenly averted out of the blue just makes me go WTF?.

In fact, here's a pretty good summary of my irritation at the time I lost at the hands of the last few episodes. Avert-by-Dream sequences and all things similar are the biggest turn-offs for me and a good number of others in shows.

[Proto]

That's only the case if you count the whole ordeal as a dream, which was never intended to. to which I reply with three

[atividia]

Originally Posted by atividia

Wow, so the episodes since Nagisa's death were a total waste of my time? This might be one of the few times where my opinion of a series totally died on the last episode.

1/10 for being able to unrealistically undo the crap that happens in life. As much as their deaths really sucked, at least it fit the direction of the story. However, the fact that everything is suddenly averted out of the blue just makes me go WTF?.

In fact, here's a pretty good summary of my irritation at the time I lost at the hands of the last few episodes. Avert-by-Dream sequences and all things similar are the biggest turn-offs for me and a good number of others in shows.

Originally Posted by Proto

That's only the case if you count the whole ordeal as a dream, which was never intended to. to which I reply with three

3 is invalid: the events in that stretch of time were not necessary for the events of episode 22 because the events of 16-21 never happened yet the events of episode 22 did happen. Q.E.D.

(By the way, this logical proof is a scenario not covered by your post.)

[Proto]

Under the premises that the CLANNAD world and reality dictates, what makes you think that 16-21 never happened?

PS: I only posted the most rehashed arguments. The one you posted has only been used twice before in this thread if my memory serves me well.

[Gundampilotspaz]

I have to question the people who claim it was a dream. They have obviously not been paying attention to any of the series if they do not understand that the girl and the robot exist in another universe, a parallel universe. The entire series has built up to the moment at the start of the series where we learn that this world Ushio. She has complete control over it, complete mastery over it. What we learn in the final episode is that the two worlds are connected and Tomoya helps her realize this when they both cross over. Ushio doesn't realize this, Tomoya doesn't realize it until they find themselves in this world. This is the journey Ushio wanted to go on in 21, it wasn't a physical place.

I'm not going to go though the entire series and match it up with the robot. But throughout the series the events in the real world effected the events in this ended world. The scene at the end of 21 and start of 22 show the state of Tomoya as he attempts to live his life with Nagisa and with Ushio.

"How many more steps until we get there? Maybe on more step will take us there?"

Tomoya's quest was to clean up his life. He was running away from his father, running away from potential, and then attempted to run away from Ushio. As he reconciled these issues he grew closer to gaining the power to turn back time and fix his life. He didn't realize it, but he gained the ability to change his life by taking charge of his life.

In this I believe a new world was created, or that Tomoya was able to go into this different world where Nagisa didn't die and relive his life. The series was about dealing with your problems, gaining the strength to push forward.

Tomoya in the beginning of the series (shown again at the end of 21) waits for change to happen to him. He regrets the past and doesn't want to face the future.

"I hate this city. Because it is a place stained with memories I want to forget. Every day, going to school, chatting with freidns, then going to a home I don't like. Like this, I wonder when something will change."

Inadvertently Tomoya does take charge of his life by talking to Nagisa for the first time. Which is why he is given that choice again. He could have changed the way things went and walked away. But that would be giving into those fears he showed in the above quote. By choosing, consciously choosing, to meet Nagisa he is able to change his life and move on as a person. This turns the random event that was meeting Nagisa into a choice, making it a far more powerful decision. He will now take the good memories and the bad memories at the same time. He is willing to to relive the deaths of his wife and daughter in order to capture that small speck of happiness... and in that moment he is redeemed and granted his wish to move on.

Actually a very beautiful theme. Anyone can write a boy meets girl, boy falls in love, girl dies formula. But key decides to revisit the moment of the meeting and turn it into a choice AFTER Tomoya has experienced the pain that the relationship has caused not only him, but everyone associated with him.

I don't know if I could have made that choice. It's hard to think about. If I could wipe out all the bad memories I have maybe I would do it... but could I also forsake the good memories? Again, a very powerful theme.


Sorry if I may be rambling. It's Friday night, I've mostly taken off my English Major hat. I'm going to read this tomorrow and want to kill myself ^^;;


Edit: Also, I don't want to knock the structure of the story. The entire series was very slow. All the arcs held a pretty steady pace and I don't think this ending is any different. As for Myssa Rei comment about the "non-climax" I disagree. The climax of the story was Nagisa's death. The resolution, ending in this episode, was Tomoya coming to terms with that fact. If you have a slow pace, you aren't going to have a very dramatic buildup and climax.

[atividia]

Originally Posted by Proto

Under the premises that the CLANNAD world and reality dictates, what makes you think that 16-21 never happened?

The CLANNAD world did not ever rely on time travel, nor was time travel ever noted. In addition, the execution of the beginning of episode 22 (not the alternate universe Ushio scenes, but rather, the impossible Nagisa/Tomoya revisit) implies that 16-21 was a long dream sequence. Finally, at 09:29, the fact that Tomoya executes an action only implemented upon snapping out of a daydream indicates that everything that did happen through 16-21 was, in fact, a dream.

(Please use quotes. AnimeSuki kills quote pyramids, so there's no reason not to use quotes.)

[JPZ]

Not a 10 because they screwed up the pacing too much in the second half but i am happy again.

[Ice Block]

Originally Posted by atividia

The CLANNAD world did not ever rely on time travel, nor was time travel ever noted. In addition, the execution of the beginning of episode 22 (not the alternate universe Ushio scenes, but rather, the impossible Nagisa/Tomoya revisit) implies that 16-21 was a long dream sequence. Finally, at 09:29, the fact that Tomoya executes an action only implemented upon snapping out of a daydream indicates that everything that did happen through 16-21 was, in fact, a dream.

(Please use quotes. AnimeSuki kills quote pyramids, so there's no reason not to use quotes.)

Originally Posted by Ice Block

Gratz on being bad.

Hint: Look outside the window.

[Proto]

The CLANNAD world did not ever rely on time travel, nor was time travel ever noted. In addition, the execution of the beginning of episode 22 (not the alternate universe Ushio scenes, but rather, the impossible Nagisa/Tomoya revisit) implies that 16-21 was a long dream sequence. Finally, at 09:29, the fact that Tomoya executes an action only implemented upon snapping out of a daydream indicates that everything that did happen through 16-21 was, in fact, a dream.

(there, quoting. yay.)

In effect, I agree with you, the CLANNAD series never proposes anything that would cope with a time travel type explanation. However, there is yet another explanation, and that makes more sense than a dream sequence type explanation that would cope with what happened in the series. You've said it yourself in fact.

[RandomFlameStrike]

Fck yeah Clannad!!!!!!!!!!! They pulled off the true end in a way that was really well done! I know some people will complain with some BS about how it ruined some parts but I loved it. If you don't like this type of ending that's too bad, but it's better then Kanon's ending imo. Atleast the way the ending came about wasn't just a "random" miracale.

Also for anyone who thinks that the events of 16-21 didn't matter, your wrong. You probably missed the point of them if you think that they could have just been skipped. Well I don't really care that much about what other people think, to me Clannad = good and I'll just leave it at that. Argueing with people who can't be convinced otherwise is just going to be a huge head ache and a waste of time.

[MeoTwister5]

Right now I'm just trying to find a new romantic drama fix to fill in the void.

[atividia]

Originally Posted by Proto

(there, quoting. yay.)

In effect, I agree with you, the CLANNAD series never proposes anything that would cope with a time travel type explanation. However, there is yet another explanation, and that makes more sense than a dream sequence type explanation that would cope with what happened in the series. You've said it yourself in fact.

You're right, I did say it, and I also said it was terrible.

http://www.hulu.com/watch/7127/famil...ie?c=1232:1270

I'm just leaving it at that. I've got better things to do than to argue the validity of my argument after having already done so.

[NettoSaito]

i really liked this episode but it also makes me wonder.....

think they will ever make the tomoyo visual novel into a anime (even though its not canon)

also what about that book?

but anyway.... great ep! good way to end the show.

[Proto]

You're right, I did say it, and I also said it was terrible.

http://www.hulu.com/watch/7127/famil...ie?c=1232:1270

I'm just leaving it at that. I've got better things to do than to argue the validity of my argument after having already done so.

Geez, you are no fun, I was about to get to the observer effect when applied to macrouniverses from a philosophical point of view, and the concept of meta universes

BTW your link only sends me to the general page of a family guy episode, not to any specific review or post. Unless your opinion is within the Family Guy ep itself

PS: BTW you do realize that hulu is only accesible within the US right? So even if we were pointed to your review the guys outside the border wouldn't be able to see read it

[MeoTwister5]

If I've remembered anything after reading all the arguments in this thread, it's practically impossible to have an acceptable explanation to everything that will satisfy all parties involved. Attempting to do so will only have you scrounging up endlessly into an infinite void.

That said after watching this for a third time without seeking to find a rationale and an explanation to everything that had occurred, seeing things at face value for what and who they are, I want to kick up my vote from an 8 to a 9, but I can't do that anymore.