How should we react to visual gameplays' featuring disturbing themes?

[Kagedanji]

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

Originally Posted by SaintessHeart

The girls DON'T get pregnant. If they do you lose, and the elder sister (Aoi) pushes you out onto the train track and you die.

You don't score points in using violence. There aren't even options for violence! Just the few regular sexual positions, and there isn't even an option for forced penetration!

That review is probably another retarded wiki-cut Duke Nukem 3D styled review. Made by idiots, for the idiots.

P.S I played the game. IMO it shouldn't even be considered hardcore.

Originally Posted by danin8r44

Somehow, that feels like the best evidence of all in this discussion. Even just within this thread, I feel that the game may have become overhyped.

No one attacking the game has tried it. They believe it's offensive to the highest degree and want to make it infamous. They'll just take incriminating assumptions and false rumors about it as truth. This applies to anything that someone hates, they won't associate with it in any way, but they'll surely talk about it as if they know it inside and out.

Anyone remember when Fox News claimed Mass Effect had an explicit sex minigame in it?

[Thingle]

With amusement and some laughter.

Srsly, when one' s society has much more important problems to tackle (such as endemic corruption, islamist and marxist insurgents, chronic unemployment and the rising crime rate b/c of it), "disturbing" video games are the last thing in their minds and become insignificant compared to the problems listed above. Those people who whine about "violent" or "offensive" games appear ridiculous, even shallow to be honest. It's just a game.

[TinyRedLeaf]

To be sure, the opinions in this thread reflect the biases of this forum's members.

As I've said, I'm all for free speech and expression, but at the same time, I wonder at how some of us can easily dismiss negative messages and images in the media, saying that "it's just a game" and therefore harmless, when at the same time, we lavish praise on the nuanced qualities of "wholesome" anime.

We can easily raise examples of the educational qualities of many different anime series and movies, from child-like Ghibli movies to sci-fi inspired Production I.G projects.

Make no mistake: media content can influence minds, both for the better or the worse. It would be naive to think that it doesn't have any effect. At its best, it opens our minds to new worlds and new ideas, and inspires us to be more inquisitive and reasonable about the people and cultures around us. At its worst, it inspires hatred and destructive behaviour.

It seems to me that we run the danger of praising only the good and excusing the bad that appears in all kinds of media. Media is media. It's merely a platform for ideas. When a platform is used to promulgate ideas that a society deems detrimental to its well-being, we shouldn't automatically dismiss it as mere paranoia, but examine the concerns on their own merits.

In this case, I'm sure no one here actually approves of rape. So, is it so hard to understand the concerns of those who oppose products that may promote it? Of course, I'm not exonerating those are slamming the game based on sweeping statements -- they, too, should examine closely what they are criticising before raising hell over it. But the same could also be said of the other side: the automatic scorn poured on those who call for bans as "close-minded" or "idiots" is unnecessary and serves only to inflame the argument.

It also shows that some "open-minded" people are not necessarily as open-minded as they claim to be.

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

To be sure, the opinions in this thread reflect the biases of this forum's members.

As I've said, I'm all for free speech and expression, but at the same time, I wonder at how some of us can easily dismiss negative messages and images in the media, saying that "it's just a game" and therefore harmless, when at the same time, we lavish praise on the nuanced qualities of "wholesome" anime.

We can easily raise examples of the educational qualities of many different anime series and movies, from child-like Ghibli movies to sci-fi inspired Production I.G projects.

Make no mistake: media content can influence minds, both for the better or the worse. It would be naive to think that it doesn't have any effect. At its best, it opens our minds to new worlds and new ideas, and inspires us to be more inquisitive and reasonable about the people and cultures around us. At its worst, it inspires hatred and destructive behaviour.

It seems to me that we run the danger of praising only the good and excusing the bad that appears in all kinds of media. Media is media. It's merely a platform for ideas. When a platform is used to promulgate ideas that a society deems detrimental to its well-being, we shouldn't automatically dismiss it as mere paranoia, but examine the concerns on their own merits.

In this case, I'm sure no one here actually approves of rape. So, is it so hard to understand the concerns of those who oppose products that may promote it? Of course, I'm not exonerating those are slamming the game based on sweeping statements -- they, too, should examine closely what they are criticising before raising hell over it. But the same could also be said of the other side: the automatic scorn poured on those who call for bans as "close-minded" or "idiots" is unnecessary and serves only to inflame the argument.

It also shows that some "open-minded" people are not necessarily as open-minded as they claim to be.

Just in case you missed out, today's My Paper in Singapore decides to wikify their source with a copypasta article on Rapelay.

Honestly, when will it stop before the media start CHECKING their sources? Rapelay DOES NOT give points for physical violence on the girls, and YOU LOSE THE GAME if you get ANY of the girls severely pregnant, not WIN.

[yezhanquan]

No guesses as to why I don't bother with the New Paper.

[SaintessHeart]

I was mentioning My Paper, not New Paper. New Paper has a higher notch considering that their sports page is always up to date, along with the daily gossip for the men to use as an excuse on their girlfriends/wives (actually it worked, kinda.....) that they are reading something "productive".

My Paper is just a futile attempt at copypasta publication. Quick reading publications should at least have a niche of responsibility like Time or The Economist (although both contain rather slightly lopsided US views), but at least the latter publish the articles with facts.

It is time such papers criticise the citizen journalists supplying them with news. There has got to be a limit on the scoops before they explode into propaganda.

[Kylaran]

There are popular myths related to psychology that should, no, must be removed. And one of these is the idea that humans are incapable of symbolically representing fiction and non-fiction.

Again and again, we hear arguments of people who are inspired by fiction to commit things in reality when in fact this problem could appear anywhere - not just in people playing rape simulation games. You can hear of crimes committed by people (for example, rape) in countries throughout the world, and yet we, most likely individuals from majorly or completely developed nations (forgive me for the assumption here, but we all have internet access), have the arrogance to assume that a mere game will cause the decline of society?

Last time I checked, there were people who lose touch with what's morally right everywhere. We may think that the internet or technology is fundamentally influencing an increase in the development of these unwanted habits in individuals, but we rarely stop to think that this might have been prevalent in society all along.

Instead of babbling, I'll get to the point: (1) there is a substantial body of statistical evidence done to show that the vast majority of individuals are capable of distinguishing fiction and reality, and that there is no causal effect between violence in entertainment and reality, and (2), simply because we hear about crimes and individuals that happen to be related to violent entertainment (specifically, crimes committed by otaku involving rape or pedophilia) more often does NOT mean the cause lies in the entertainment.

Perhaps we're finding ourselves expressing our basic animalistic nature (dominance, for example) so easily because of what the world's become? Our post-modern, interconnected world is not without its own problems and effects on the psyche. Or perhaps increased information and communications technology means we're more easily aware of what might have been a previously less visible problem?

Now, I understand that people are not arguing the removal of rape simulations will eliminate rape, but rape dates back thousands of years; the psychology behind it has other factors that must be considered before we go off screaming "Games are going to ruin the world!" Yet, instead, some of us choose to believe that the problem lies not in the internal, or what's deeply rooted, but the external. As Rio mentioned, Japan has a culture filled with much of the same sexual discrimination or harassment seen in these games. It's not a simple problem that has developed recently, and I have yet to see definitive evidence of rape simulations having any true effect on rape and crime.

[[DOT].L]

All this moral talk aside for a moment, there's one thing I'd like to know. My understanding is that Illusion made a legal game under legal conditions and released it through legal methods in Japan with no plans for distributions outside of the country. If this piece of info is accurate, then give me some reasons why people from foreign countries should get all up in arms about a consumer product that was never intended for their use just because they don't find it agreeable by their standards.

[Kylaran]

Originally Posted by [DOT].L

All this moral talk aside for a moment, there's one thing I'd like to know. My understanding is that Illusion made a legal game under legal conditions and released it through legal methods in Japan with no plans for distributions outside of the country. If this piece of info is accurate, then give me some reasons why people from foreign countries should get all up in arms about a consumer product that was never intended for their use just because they don't find it agreeable by their standards.

I would think there may have been distribution and offering of the game overseas in stores most likely specializing in Japanese imports. The vast majority of these products have a disclaimer saying they're meant for production and sale only in Japan, though.

[Edit]Well, if you read the article, the arguments made by people at UNICEF or Equality Now are that the internet crosses international borders, so restrictions should be at a global level too. I doubt this is a case of inevitable discovery, but it feels like these groups are just latching on to something in hopes it'll spur the development of laws and outcomes they want.

[Xacual]

Originally Posted by [DOT].L

All this moral talk aside for a moment, there's one thing I'd like to know. My understanding is that Illusion made a legal game under legal conditions and released it through legal methods in Japan with no plans for distributions outside of the country. If this piece of info is accurate, then give me some reasons why people from foreign countries should get all up in arms about a consumer product that was never intended for their use just because they don't find it agreeable by their standards.

After spending a few hours reading random web articles about the game since I didn't know about this until today, the company spokesman had even come out and said that they had no intentions to sell outside of their country.

[SaintessHeart]

Too late. Apparently the torrent already appeared online before he realised, and it is already TRANSLATED.

Whoopie. What a way to gatecrash your company.

So I assume after this saga, Tomoyo After, Kanon and Air are going to be banned worldwide along with Clannad?

[[DOT].L]

Originally Posted by Kylaran

I would think there may have been distribution and offering of the game overseas in stores most likely specializing in Japanese imports. The vast majority of these products have a disclaimer saying they're meant for production and sale only in Japan, though.

Then wouldn't that mean even less reason to prosecute Illusion? What importers do have almost nothing to do with the Japanese publisher.

The whole internet argument is just as invalid. If they were referring to buying online, then the consumer should be aware of the properties of the product he or she is purchasing. Alluding to piracy makes no sense either since there's little legal control over illegal online distribution. Finally, there's no international law body for the regulation of video games at all to begin with.

I'm still pretty much left with a sense of "what the hell?" regarding this dumb thing.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

To be sure, the opinions in this thread reflect the biases of this forum's members.

As I've said, I'm all for free speech and expression, but at the same time, I wonder at how some of us can easily dismiss negative messages and images in the media, saying that "it's just a game" and therefore harmless, when at the same time, we lavish praise on the nuanced qualities of "wholesome" anime.

... We do?

We can easily raise examples of the educational qualities of many different anime series and movies, from child-like Ghibli movies to sci-fi inspired Production I.G projects.

Make no mistake: media content can influence minds, both for the better or the worse. It would be naive to think that it doesn't have any effect. At its best, it opens our minds to new worlds and new ideas, and inspires us to be more inquisitive and reasonable about the people and cultures around us. At its worst, it inspires hatred and destructive behaviour.

It seems to me that we run the danger of praising only the good and excusing the bad that appears in all kinds of media. Media is media. It's merely a platform for ideas. When a platform is used to promulgate ideas that a society deems detrimental to its well-being, we shouldn't automatically dismiss it as mere paranoia, but examine the concerns on their own merits.

Yes, but is it really the media's fault if some people think of Gundam as a physics textbook and of eroge as how-tos for romance?

More to the point, would banning them solve the problems of having some seriously confused people around?

In this case, I'm sure no one here actually approves of rape. So, is it so hard to understand the concerns of those who oppose products that may promote it? Of course, I'm not exonerating those are slamming the game based on sweeping statements -- they, too, should examine closely what they are criticising before raising hell over it. But the same could also be said of the other side: the automatic scorn poured on those who call for bans as "close-minded" or "idiots" is unnecessary and serves only to inflame the argument.

A fair point, but I still think the burden of proof lies with the ones trying to interfere with other people's private lives. If they can bring more to the table than their gut feelings and ruffled feathers, sure, I'll listen. Heck, if they can prove the game is harmful, sure, ban it. I don't care, I don't play it. But so far, the evidence points the other way.

[izmosmolnar]

Just a quick question. How come that I can read books and watch DVD porn-films involving forced sexual intercourses? Why is that no one wants to ban those?
I dare to say, some of those sick books and films might actually glorify the concept of rape even more, than that crappy game.

[ganbaru]

Originally Posted by izmosmolnar

Just a quick question. How come that I can read books and watch DVD porn-films involving forced sexual intercourses? Why is that no one wants to ban those?
I dare to say, some of those sick books and films might actually glorify the concept of rape even more, than that crappy game.

For a short answer, it's the interactivity of the game than may cause problem mixed with some hypocrisy .

[danin8r44]

Originally Posted by izmosmolnar

Just a quick question. How come that I can read books and watch DVD porn-films involving forced sexual intercourses? Why is that no one wants to ban those?
I dare to say, some of those sick books and films might actually glorify the concept of rape even more, than that crappy game.

That is a good point. In my case I am much more influenced by a book I read than any game or movie, especially anything from the internet. If the book is especially good I can find myself thinking aloud in the style that the book is written. Books not only present the idea but also go into detail on why the idea is right or wrong, good or bad. Yet, banning a book is often considered sacrilege. In fact, banning books in America is downright illegal. I remember when a book that depicted rape was banned from the reading list in my old high school there were physical protests by over 200 kids out of a student population of only 1,800. Why is the arguably more incendiary material left alone but the games and movies are attacked? I believe it is because the movies and games present the material more directly not to the consumer, but to the average populous who only sees the media hype of the material and because we have already experienced the problems that can come along with censoring material in the form of books. It is much easier to be offended by an image of rape than it is a chapter on it. As for America's experiences with banning books one need only look at a list of materials that were officially banned at one point in America because they were deemed incendiary, controversial, sexual, or otherwise repulsive to a large percent of Americans. In fact, a number of the books banned in the US at one point in time or another were much more obviously harmful than a rape sim, a number of these could still be considered far more harmful than a rape sim. However, as Americans look back at the banning of these books it is often with shame. I wonder if that trend will cease in regards to video games and other modern media or if the same principle of "I don't like it so ban it" will be carried out yet again and our ancestors will have to look down in shame at our censorship laws.

[Jazzrat]

Originally Posted by rio

I have to say that i was very emotional when i wrote the post , i knew that i was, but kept writing because i wanted people to know how i felt about the problem .
But, to augue this problem well, i think i have to be rational and fair .

What's more, men are just afraid of women's power. Even if not all women have equal or more power than all men, certain women defintetly have more power than certain men , that's because of difference of the ability within the each race. So,(certain) men aren't feeling safe as their position will be taken over by (certain) women.

Yes.. but how ? Things are already solid and women here have been making efforts, but nothing has changed. How should we do from now?

But , one thing that can melt the solid society is, that voices from overseas.
Japanese society has a lot of influence from overseas, and very weak and sensitive to views from overseas.
So, i thought having such conversation and caution from other countries' people are very good remedy to the problem.

You ll have to make me Prime Minister of Japan if I can give you the solution .

Firstly, it seems like Rapeplay was pulled off the shelf due to external media influence. So yay for women and not so yay for rape sim fans.

This is going offtopic but, time, education and family cultivated values have far more impact than any bans of material will ever have.

Of course, it's impossible to have everyone to be responsible parents but if, a majority of them could educate their children on gender equality and invisible rules of social norm will take care of enforcing it especially for Japanese community/family which as you said are very sensitive to external views.

Japan has only just started on the road to a gender equal society. More and more women are becoming vocal about their rights and are willing to report such sexual abuse compare to the past where they suffer in silence and the authorities have taken some action (separate carriage for women on train and policemen are more sensitive to sexual abuse case).

Little by little, I think Japan would catch up to other more liberal developed nations in terms of gender equality as long as it doesnt shut it's door to the outside world and cling onto it's xenophobic nature. Rome wasnt built in a day afterall.

[MakubeX2]

Just to show how tame Rapelay is :-



Here's a game titled Zetsubo (Despair) from the year 2000. The player assume the role of an excuted serial rapist who's spirit is doomed to roamed the Earth because he can't go to neither Heaven or Hell. So he decides to possess a body of a Brain Dead man and resumed his old ways to go on a Summer "Collection" Spree as you can see from the above. (Game allows imprisonment up to 32 characters.)

The moment he gets a girl, he can repeatly rape her and cause them to lose their mind before the girl dies. In the best ending, he get tire of his toy, destory all evidence by burning his lair and all his prisoners before setting on going to the next town.

[Amray]

How disturbing. Of course there are people out there in the world that adore such things, yet it offends others. That is life.

Although I agree that our governments should be prioritising over real life incidents and cases it is still clear to see why such games can offend a number people; notably women. Yes the girls in these games are fictitious and do not possess feelings or nerves, but it still reflects a negative impact on a females purpose and standing from a males perspective. I have never strongly opposed internet sex games, Lolicon, or any other fictional source of sexual orientated imageing, and I have always been against the real life cases where vulnerable women and children are used as nothing more than sexual icons (it does well and truely make me sick), but I can still see why people are against these games and images and detest their very existence and, ultimately, their objective.

It is true they are just games but I still prefer to see things from all different directions so that I can understand the points which are raised.

[MakubeX2]

Of course, we have never heard of any reported case of a serial-kidnapper-cum-rapist since the year 2000 from Japan after the release of my afore mentioned game.

The worst case of crime of such nature in recent hostory has to be Josef Fritzl's, but I don't think he was inspire by a game to do so.