One Piece - Chapter 543 [Manga]

[Master Mold]

Originally Posted by andy

Your one not reading OP as Grap said on page 18-19 chapter 524 whether Ace live or dies does not matter any more. War is going to happen no matter what. WB saving Ace is plus for him but thats not what all this war is about for him. Luffy just wants to save Ace and high tail out of there .

I never said it won't, but you guys are the ones saying "Whitebeard don't care about saving his SON Ace, he just wants War while Luffy wants to save his brother." When that is not the case. Do you users even know what type of man Whitebeard is?

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by Master Mold

There are guys under Blackbeard who rape luffy.

No argument there.

Luffy gets chased away by Kumabots or Sentumaru.

Both of whom are probably a good deal stronger than the average WB crewman or VA. Did you forget how Shanks KO most of WBs crew with his Haki, which Luffy is just now beginning to develop?

The War is about saving Ace?

And how many times do we have to tell you that Luffy is an outside third party that doesn't give to craps about the war? As far as the major players are concerned the war between WB and the WG is going to happen over Ace's execution and they never even considered the possibility of a lone pirate gathering leading an entourage to rescue Ace. And Luffy doesn't care about them likewise.

[Master Mold]

Originally Posted by james0246

We can't really say that this is true (you better add an IMHO ).

Blackbeard >>> Ace >>>>>>>> Luffy.

Why does that exclude the possibility of a third force acting independently of the other two? Why can't 2 people (Luffy and Whitebeard) want to save Ace, but take different routes in order to get to him?

Luffy is two weak to save Ace, James.

[andy]

Originally Posted by Master Mold

There are guys under Blackbeard who rape luffy.

Luffy gets chased away by Kumabots or Sentumaru.

The War is about saving Ace?

I can name guys who can rape luffy and thats with out Oda giving some Haki power up. But guess what they have to be fighting WB .

Originally Posted by Master Mold

I never said it won't, but you guys are the ones saying "Whitebeard don't care about saving his SON Ace, he just wants War while Luffy wants to save his brother." When that is not the case. Do you users even know what type of man Whitebeard is?

I know type of person WB is he want to save his son but thats not all. If ace was do die you would stop but no WB is not going to stop he going to war any to show WG you don't fuck with him. Which might cause even more death in his crew. Not saying it bad thing that just how it is.

Originally Posted by Master Mold

Blackbeard >>> Ace >>>>>>>> Luffy.

Luffy is two weak to save Ace, James.

When he was by him self now he has help . WG has only so much strong people they can use and they have to be fight WB . Why do think the toss one warloard in ID when he won't fight with them don't don't want such strong guy that can get in the way out in the open , but guess what he now coming with whole other bunch of guys.

[Master Mold]

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

No argument there.

Good to know.

Both of whom are probably a good deal stronger than the average WB crewman or VA. Did you forget how Shanks KO most of WBs crew with his Haki, which Luffy is just now beginning to develop?

Shanks Koed WB pirate fodder, I saw no commanders dropping to there knees, in Shanks wake.

[Ermes Marana]

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

What in the world are you talking about? Luffy's the main freaking character! How can he not be the central character? This is all about his attempt to save Ace and his reigning hell on Impel Down. And we don't know what's gonna happen with Teach. Yes, Luffy is gonna get out and rescue Ace somehow (hmm, well maybe), but we don't know how it's gonna happen. It's called suspense and Oda is the goddamn master of it! (IMO)

Until now Luffy was never a central character of this particular storyline.

Was he there when Shanks met with Whitebeard? Was he there when Ace fought Blackbeard? Was he there when the WG and Whitebeard made their preparations?

No, he was off struggling with a Kumabot.

To me, it just feels like Luffy is suddenly being "forced" into a starring role in this conflict, rather than earning it.

Even his newfound allies... how did he earn them? By losing again. Pure luck that they would even be there. By all rights that should have been the end for Luffy.

It feels "off" to me that Luffy's position and role is being greatly improved while he continues to struggle and lose fight after fight. Blackbeard showing up just made it obvious to me, since I'm pretty sure nobody thinks Luffy would stand a chance against him right now.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Master Mold

Blackbeard >>> Ace >>>>>>>> Luffy.

I thought you meant Blackbeard's subordinates (I even edited my post to reflect that).

Originally Posted by Master Mold

Luffy is two weak to save Ace, James.

Why? If literally all of they Big Names are dealing with Whitebeard and his crew, what is there to stop Luffy and his vagabond crew from rescuing Ace in the confusion? A few Vice-Admirals? Literally, you're entire argument is based around the assumption that an Admiral, Sengoku himself, or Mihawk (or people around their levels of strength) will be guarding Ace, when in reality Ace could simply be guarded by a low-level crew of green marines.

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by Master Mold

Shanks Koed WB pirate fodder, I saw no commanders dropping to there knees, in Shanks wake.

True, VAs are much stronger than WB cannon fodder, but they're not undefeatable by Luffy.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Ermes Marana

Until now Luffy was never a central character of this particular storyline.

Arguably, Luffy is the one that allowed Blackbeard to become a Shichibukai. Specifically, if Luffy had not defeated Crocodile, there would not have been an open seat in the Shichibukai. And, if there were not an open seat amongst the Shichibukai, then Blackbeard may have never given Ace to the WG (he would have simply killed Ace since there was nothing else he could have done with him), and the War may have never occured (though Whitebeard may have still decided to track down Blackbeard).

So, Luffy has been quite pivotal in creating this storyline...and he is Ace's brother after all...

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Master Mold

it's a war between the WG and Whitebeard Pirates because Whitebeard is trying to save his son Ace. You saying no, means your not following the story.

Nobody is arguing this. What we are saying is the Luffy doesn't give a damn about this war that will end an era. If he did he would have joined Whitebeard rather than go to Impel Down alone. All he wants to do is save Ace.

To me, this setup looks like a perfect decoy. While Whitebeard keeps all the strong people occupied, Luffy swoops in and saves Ace.

[andy]

Originally Posted by Ermes Marana

Until now Luffy was never a central character of this particular storyline.

Was he there when Shanks met with Whitebeard? Was he there when Ace fought Blackbeard? Was he there when the WG and Whitebeard made their preparations?

No, he was off struggling with a Kumabot.

To me, it just feels like Luffy is suddenly being "forced" into a starring role in this conflict, rather than earning it.

Even his newfound allies... how did he earn them? By losing again. Pure luck that they would even be there. By all rights that should have been the end for Luffy.

It feels "off" to me that Luffy's position and role is being greatly improved while he continues to struggle and lose fight after fight. Blackbeard showing up just made it obvious to me, since I'm pretty sure nobody thinks Luffy would stand a chance against him right now.

What your saying makes not sense if not for luffy there would not even have a open spot for in warlords for BB to get .

damn beating by james lol

[Master Mold]

Originally Posted by james0246

I thought you meant Blackbeard's subordinates (I even edited my post to reflect that).

I didn't see that edit.

Why? If literally all of they Big Names are dealing with Whitebeard and his crew, what is there to stop Luffy and his vagabond crew from rescuing Ace in the confusion? A few Vice-Admirals? Literally, you're entire argument is based around the assumption that an Admiral, Sengoku himself, or Mihawk (or people around their levels of strength) will be guarding Ace, when in reality Ace could simply be guarded by a low-level crew of green marines.

You think this is some strange mystery of the universe, you didn't see the signs!!!?? I saw the signs.

Originally Posted by Canon

Nyon: And do you have any idea...
...just how impossible that will be, and the scale of this coming war?
You might as well be an ant charging into a storm!
You could be buffetted back and killed in an instant.

- Page 14 -

Ivankov: Oh, don't be a FOOL!! Hyou, fight against the very CENTER of power?!
Do hyou know the strength of Whitebeard?! Do hyou know the strength...
...of the admirals and vice admirals being sent to stop him?! How many lives DO hyou have, anyway?!

Not to mention, what if Smoker is the one guarding Ace? the same guy Luffy has done nothing but run from?

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

True, VAs are much stronger than WB cannon fodder, but they're not undefeatable by Luffy.

Luffy has yet to beat Magellan.

Originally Posted by Keroko

Nobody is arguing this. What we are saying is the Luffy doesn't give a damn
about this war that will end an era. If he did he would have joined Whitebeard rather than go to Impel Down alone. All he wants to do is save Ace.

To me, this setup looks like a perfect decoy. While Whitebeard keeps all the strong people occupied, Luffy swoops in and saves Ace.

Who isn't trying to save Ace? the only difference between Luffy and Whitebeard is that One is an ant while the other is a dragon.

You think the Big boys care about what Luffy thinks? lol

Originally Posted by Ermes Marana

Until now Luffy was never a central character of this particular storyline.

Was he there when Shanks met with Whitebeard? Was he there when Ace fought Blackbeard? Was he there when the WG and Whitebeard made their preparations?

No, he was off struggling with a Kumabot.

To me, it just feels like Luffy is suddenly being "forced" into a starring role in this conflict, rather than earning it.

Even his newfound allies... how did he earn them? By losing again. Pure luck that they would even be there. By all rights that should have been the end for Luffy.

It feels "off" to me that Luffy's position and role is being greatly improved while he continues to struggle and lose fight after fight. Blackbeard showing up just made it obvious to me, since I'm pretty sure nobody thinks Luffy would stand a chance against him right now.

This is a good post.

[Ermes Marana]

Originally Posted by james0246

So, Luffy has been quite pivotal in creating this storyline...and he is Ace's brother after all...

If Roger didn't exist, Luffy would not be searching for One Piece, thus would not have defeated Crocodile, etc...

So Roger is the central character of the WG/Whitebeard war.

I like your logic.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Master Mold

You think this is some strange mystery of the universe, you didn't see the signs!!!?? I saw the signs.

...And all those signs point to Luffy not caring about the upcoming conflict, only with rescuing his brother...

Honestly, just look at the Skypiea arc to see what will happen in the War arc. The Priests concetrated their firepower on fighting the Shandians, and by doing so, the Strawhat crew was able to, more or less, pass on through with only minor incidents until they all arrived at the "capital" of the island where they were forced to actually fight against powerful opponents. I expect that the War arc will be presented in a slightly similar fashion, with Luffy and company only fighting minor battles until they are almost at Ace's cell, where they will have to fight either a few Pacifistas, someone like Smoker, or a few Vice-Admirals, etc.

Originally Posted by Master Mold

Who isn't trying to save Ace? the only difference between Luffy and Whitebeard is that One is an ant while the other is a dragon.

You think the Big boys care about what Luffy thinks? lol

That is kind of the point. Because they only care about what other "Big Boys" think, they can be tricked by a few "little boys" who could just silently wander past...

Originally Posted by Ermes Marana

If Roger didn't exist, Luffy would not be searching for One Piece, thus would not have defeated Crocodile, etc...

So Roger is the central character of the WG/Whitebeard war.

I like your logic.

That is a false analogy. Luffy is directly responsible for opening up a position that Blackbeard then profited off of. The casual relationship between all things in a story is important, but there are more immediate relationships that have a direct bearing on the story, and Luffy's and Blackbeard's is one such relationship.

That being said, I never claimed that Luffy was the central character of the upcoming war (my post was just showing that there is a large connection between Luffy and the war), rather I have constantly said that his is a wild card, and consequently his true role cannot be determined.

[Master Mold]

Originally Posted by james0246

...And all those signs point to Luffy not caring about the upcoming conflict, only with rescuing his brother...

What is the point of saying this when this conflict is over his big brother in the 1st place? you users act as if Luffy is the only one trying to save Ace. lol

Again.

Originally Posted by Master Mold

Who isn't trying to save Ace? the only difference between Luffy and Whitebeard is that One is an ant while the other is a dragon.

Honestly, just look at the Skypiea arc to see what will happen in the War arc. The Priests concetrated their firepower on fighting the Shandians, and by doing so, the Strawhat crew was able to, more or less, pass on through with only minor incidents until they all arrived at the "capital" of the island where they were forced to actually fight against powerful opponents. I expect that the War arc will be presented in a slightly similar fashion, with Luffy and company only fighting minor battles until they are almost at Ace's cell, where they will have to fight either a few Pacifistas, someone like Smoker, or a few Vice-Admirals, etc.

How about something completely new instead of a rerun? Not to mention.

Nyon: And do you have any idea...
...just how impossible that will be, and the scale of this coming war?
You might as well be an ant charging into a storm!
You could be buffetted back and killed in an instant.

Ivankov: Oh, don't be a FOOL!! Hyou, fight against the very CENTER of power?!
Do hyou know the strength of Whitebeard?! Do hyou know the strength...
...of the admirals and vice admirals being sent to stop him?! How many lives DO hyou have, anyway?!

That is kind of the point. Because they only care about what other "Big Boys" think, they can be tricked by a few "little boys" who could just silently wander past...

Yeah, coz Yelllow Monkey wouldn't mind giving Luffy a nice Light speed kick for what he did back on bubble land.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Master Mold

What is the point of saying this when that conflict is over his brother in the 1st place? you users act as if Luffy is the only one trying to save Ace. lol

When has anyone ever claimed that no one besides Luffy cares about Ace? No one is denying that Whitebeard also wants to save Ace, and has even gone to war with the WG in order to save Ace, rather you are denying that Luffy, independent of Whitebeard, has also gone to war against the WG in order to save Ace. What is so hard to understand about 2 groups, acting independently of each other, wanting to save the same person? Who cares if the WG and Whitebeard will simply ignore Luffy, that is besides the point entirely (considering that Luffy will do his best to ignore them as well). You are making it seem like the upcoming war is static, with no confusion or chaos, and everything is predecided by only 2 sides previous to the actual combat. When, in reality, almost anything could happen (Dragon could show up, Kuma could turn traitor, one of the Shichibukai could rebel...wait, that has already happened twice it seems, etc).

That being said, Nyon's comments only include Luffy acting by himself agasint the entire world. If that was his plan, then he would likely fail after just a few fights (I already mentioned this). But, considering that is not the plan he is currently running, then Nyon's words do not matter any more (to use one of Phenomenal's phrases, "Current Canon > Previosu Canon").

Originally Posted by Master Mold

Yeah, coz Yelllow Monkey wouldn't mind giving Luffy a nice Light speed kick for what he did back on bubble land.

So Kizaru is just going to be chillin' somewhere doing absolutely nothing concerning Whitebeard or his crew? Kizaru is an Admiral, he is at the top of the World with only a select few, so, of course, he will battling against the other few also at the top. The only people Luffy and his group are probably going to have to worry about will be the mid-level opponents who cannot compete in the epic fight between Whitebeard and the top marines/Shichibukai.

[Master Mold]

Originally Posted by james0246

When has anyone ever claimed that no one besides Luffy cares about Ace.

Some time this evening, In this thread, hence me asking them, do they know what type of man Whitebeard is?

No one is denying that Whitebeard also wants to save Ace, and has even gone to war with the WG in order to save Ace, rather you are denying that Luffy, independent of Whitebeard, has also gone to war against the WG in order to save Ace. What is so hard to understand about 2 groups, acting independently of each other, wanting to save the same person?

I never said Luffy didn't want to save Ace, I'm saying "wanting to" and "doing it and succeeding" are tow very different things. Whats so hard to understand james?

That being said, Nyon's comments only include Luffy acting by himself agasint the entire world. If that was his plan, then he would likely fail after just a few fights (I lready mentioned this). But, considering that is not the plan he is currently running, then Nyon's words do not matter any more (to use one of Phenomenal's phrases, "Current Canon > Previosu Canon").

Your using Phenoms weapon wrong, for that old Canon was reestablished by Current Canon, Ivankov words.

So Kizaru is just going to be chillin' somewhere doing absolutely nothing concerning Whitebeard or his crew?

No Luffy can try to sneak by and get clipped.

Kizaru is an Admiral, he is at the top of the World with only a select few, so, of course, he will battling against the other few also at the top. The only people Luffy and his group are probably going to have to worry about will be the mid-level opponents who cannot compete in the epic fight between Whitebeard and the top marines/Shichibukai.

Again, you seem to not comprehend, that Luffy is weak, a KumaBot can chase him away, hell Luffy has yet to beat Magellan.

[Keroko]

We all agree Luffy is weak compared to the top of the WG. We are also saying that since the top of the WG will be too busy fending of Whitebeard, Luffy can use that distraction as an opening to save Ace. Rayleigh has already shown that even the WG's top can be pinned in a fight, if Whitebeards top attacks then Kizaru will be too occupied fighting for his own life to do something about Luffy.

Unless of course you're suggesting that the WG would cream the Whitebeard crew in seconds?

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Master Mold

Some time this evening, In this thread, hence me asking them, do they know what type of man Whitebeard is?

I didn't read that post, but if your interpretation is correct, then I am in complete agreement

Originally Posted by Master Mold

I never said Luffy didn't want to save Ace, I'm saying "wanting to" and "doing it and succeeding" are tow very different things. Whats so hard to understand james?

What's so hard to understand is the fact that we simply do not know what is going to happen. Simply because members of the WG and the Whitebeard crew are stronger than Luffy and his gang, doesn't mean that Luffy and his gang will actually encounter any of them. They could just as easily use the confusion of the epic battle to sneak into the execution grounds and free Ace. I do not know what will happen, but at least I am willing to accept the various different outcomes that we can speculate on now.

Originally Posted by Master Mold

Your using Phenoms weapon wrong, for that old Canon was reestablished by Current Canon, Ivankov words.

Ivankov's words were from before Luffy convinced Ivankov, Inazuma, the various Okama brigade, and Crocodile and Jinbei to join "The Cause". So, current canon, greater than previous canon...

Originally Posted by Master Mold

No Luffy can try to sneak by and get clipped.

Or, Kizaru won't even be near the area that Ace is being kept and consequently never encounter Luffy. Simply because someone is stronger than Luffy doesn't mean that the person will actually encounter and defeat Luffy anytime soon. Just look at the fact that Blackbeard even showed up on Impel Down (and will probably simply leave Luffy alone). Who could have predicted that 'twist'?

Originally Posted by Master Mold

Again, you seem to not comprehend, that Luffy is weak, a KumaBot can chase him away.

Again, you do not seem to comprehend that we cannot say for certain that Luffy will even encounter a Pacifista. Unless you are Oda in disguise (which would explain the various grammatical errors j/k :P), you cannot say with full certainty that Luffy will encounter Kizaru, or a Pacifista, or Shanks, or Roger, of God, or Buddha, or Enel, et cetera, et cetera. All we can say right now is that Luffy is going to attempt to free Ace, whether he does or not is unknown currently.

[Master Mold]

Originally Posted by Keroko

We all agree Luffy is weak compared to the top of the WG. We are also saying that since the top of the WG will be too busy fending of Whitebeard, Luffy can use that distraction as an opening to save Ace. Rayleigh has already shown that even the WG's top can be pinned in a fight, if Whitebeards top attacks then Kizaru will be too occupied fighting for his own life to do something about Luffy.

Yes but the Yellow Monkey vs Silvers also has shown that there underlings are more then enough to crush Luffy's bug a$$.