Code Geass (Generic discussion thread)

[azul120]

Originally Posted by Charred Knight

I have to go with Villeta, I mean in one episode she wears a bathing suit whose bottom is basically a string and then bitches about how she agreed to wear it, and the only thing holding her to Lelouch is the fact that he knows she once dated Ougi when she had amnesia. That's it, it's Lelouch's word against her word.

That was actually right before Lelouch had her found out and had her blackmailed in order to be freed from her jurisdiction.

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by Charred Knight

I have to go with Villeta, I mean in one episode she wears a bathing suit whose bottom is basically a string and then bitches about how she agreed to wear it, and the only thing holding her to Lelouch is the fact that he knows she once dated Ougi when she had amnesia. That's it, it's Lelouch's word against her word.

That was just plain fanservice, though i do get where you are coming from.
That whole storyline, was handled not in an intelligent way {among others}, like at all. Or better, totally rushed. Then again, it was not about Lelouch-Sunrise-god, so yeah. 8D

[Frostfire]

Originally Posted by Eleonore Magilinon

Also I've read (ok, it was geasswiki, and that's why I'm asking) that in Knights of Round-centered light novels (and they do exist for sure since they're selling them on japAmazon) Gino is said to fall in love with their family's japanese (eleven) maid (although of course nothing good came out of this) when he was 14 and that shows that he didn't care about racial differences and that he, well, did take non-Britannian's for humans. I would be glad if somebody confirms that info.

These aren't canon, it was dismissed by the show's staff and the show itself through contradiction. It is, for lack of a better word, made up by the author of the light novels to give Gino background, but it doesn't fit within the anime rendition.

It's also not good, he let the woman he loved get thrown out and then joined a military that oppresses her people. It isn't even logical within the context of the made up junk that it is.

Originally Posted by Eleonore Magilinon

Well, to add to what I've said in the beginning about light novels... Although I admit him saying what you've quoted but if we are too view it your way it seems like he would enjoy shooting the crowd, and I seriously can't see him doing that... I think (although it's cruel) that he firstly meant it as a joke (and well, his jokes are sometimes a bit too much) and secondly, even if he did mean that, he didn't see it as shooting everybody... He said "if they rebel", and rebellion means using some Knightmares (or else it's just useless) and he was looking forward some combat on the principle "soldier vs soldier" and not just shooting defenceless people of any nation. Because if we assume he does enjoy it, I see absolutely no reason for him to stop Bradly from torturing Karen and for some reason he did (and it certainly was't him trying to show off his "nobility"). Although the exact sentence was a bit different to this, but with my really imperfect japanese I've heard "katsu" in that sentence, and that doesn't stand only for "purge", buy just to "crash", "break" etc. and could be used about only the active rebels. Also unlike Guilbert for example, he wasn't so eager to mark that million people criminals and attack them, he just said it's Suzaku's decision.
But what did worry me in that story with Zero is the way he thought Zero's deal is good one. Although he was true that without their leader rebels won't be a serious threat any more, but somehow it was low... But it could be explained as him not paying much attention to past sins like in Karen's situation later.

He wasn't joking, his henchemen were taken aback by his words and he was quite sure of his decision, especially since he was prepare his knightmare. He was waiting for the pretext to shoot civilians, like what Viletta nearly did. He and the Britannians would have marched in on unarmed civilians with Knightmares. There were no other knightmares there, so there is no Knightmare vs. Knightmare combat to be had. The entire point of the Rebellion done through the SAZ is one through peaceful means, everyone knew that, Suzaku even scolded Gino for his ignorance. Lelouch/Zero were succeeding in a rebellion without firing a shot. You also have incorrect what he said, he said that "Zero had given them the wonderful pretext for a purge." He's talking about silencing the rebellion by erasing the people rebelling. A purge =/= honorable. All he needed to do it was one shot, had Viletta shot instead of being stopped by Ougi, all those Japanese would have been killed, with Gino leading in his little "purge". Contextually it is most appropriately purge, there are better words to use for break/crash in the context and not possibly mean purge. Also, there was no discerning rebel from civilian in that situation, everyone was a rebel and everyone was marked to be killed.

His enjoyment has nothing to do with Kallen because: He doesn't stop Bradley from doing anything to Kallen, he simply questions Luciano's honor. He doesn't bar Luciano from anything, Nunally does that. His presence there was probably also because he had just attacked Suzaku moments before. If you also take what betteroffer said later, Gino does not believe in Kallen's choice of the hard life. He has personal interest in converting her for his own interests. So it has nothing to do with his views on other people.

Originally Posted by Eleonore Magilinon

I mean, she didn't just choose japanese blood over britannian's because she felt it oh so unfair for japanese to be that way. It rather originated from her hatred for her britannian's father who lead her japanese mother to be the way she is. She denying Britannia the same way many britannian's deny japanese (or eleven), and her hatred for Britannia somhow remind's of Lelouch's.
Remember how it all ends (happily) - she does to Ashford while having her favorite hair style and wearing Gurren's key on chain, and it means that she finally accepted both sides of her, both japanese and britannian. And Gino's act was kind of a step in that direction. Pointing out that she's not only japanese, but she's also britannian, and she could choose either side, it's just up to her.
And I haven't seen Gino saying or implying he's stupid while he said all that.

The first part is not correct. Kallen did not choose Japanese over Britannian until her brother was killed by Britannians. She may have resented her father, but she also understands that he let her live a good life and kept her mother around. She doesn't hate him enough to hate her blood because of him, she simply dislikes that he "abbandoned them". The hatred she has for Britannia is because of her brother's death.

Your second part is rather ignoring the fact that the person who made Kallen embrace her real identity was Lelouch throughout all of Season 1 and he even asks her to go back with him in R2 to Ashford, which means accepting herself for who she is. The conclusion, also, has nothing to do with what Gino said to her, it all has to do with Lelouch's wish for her. This was all said by the creators. So Gino did not point out anything new, did not change her thinking, and did in fact degrade her race. You're also entirely forgetting what he said to her: "I won't let your dreams come true."

Originally Posted by Eleonore Magilinon

Plus about him ignoring others... Again, from his actions when stopping Bradly we may assume that he would probably done the same if he had seen it on the streets, although in my opinion it would depend on the situation.

His bout with Bradley was because of Suzaku.

Originally Posted by Eleonore Magilinon

Taking into account that Shneizel later sides with Black Knights thus completely overlooking all their past deeds, I can't see it as such an awful act. Plus her crimes... if we differiate crimes into the group that should be punished by either sides as it's immoral and crimes of being on the opposite side and basicly doing the same thing they did themselves... Yes, I also see Gino not paying attention to that, but I see it like he just see it the same, their side or not, it's just fighting. Knowing what they're doing themselves he doesn't consider other person doing the same on the other side as "unforgivable criminal".

The example is completely different. Schneizel is the heir to the throne and a prince and has a DOOM fortress, Kallen is just a soldier who has killed countless Britannians. He is in affect telling Kallen that if she switches sides, all the blood on her hands would be wiped clean. Schneizel's record isn't wiped clean, he's not even trusted by his allies.

Originally Posted by Eleonore Magilinon

Well, you of course can interpret it differently, but I see it firstly as him (as most of BK besides Tamaki and other forces opposing Lelouch) seeing through Lelouch's "generous" moves rather than being bothered by the inconvieniences (actually I don't remember him actually bringing up conviniences of being noble or regretting loosing them one bit), since he's, well... not completely stupid, although I'm not even dreaming to say he's exeptionally smart. Plus at that time he was just stoping what actually was coup d'etat, not accepting Emperor who killed the previous one. It's not the matter of his rule being good or bad, but simply the way he did it. And don't see any proof that his actions were based on his dislike for abolishment of noble system or something of the sort.

Seeing through? He says it himself that he does not agree with Lelouch's Britannia. At this point in time, Lelouch and Suzaku had done nothing bad, they had freed the areas and set the world into an era of cooperation and presperity. Lelouch took power just like how Schneizel wanted to take power, and exactly how every other Emperor has taken power. It is Charles' moto that his heir must defeat him.

Originally Posted by Eleonore Magilinon

Here comes a difficult part. I rewatched that and one scene really doesn't make sense to me, and scene in general, not just Gino in it.
But about FLEIJA accident we should start with his shocked face after seeing the effect and saying "That's not war anymore..." It we combine in with his face's expression at the time I would assume the continuation was "but just a massacre". And that would be him actually caring about lives of civilians.

Britannian Civilians.

Originally Posted by Eleonore Magilinon

And also, when Karen was imprisoned, he did come to show her Suzaku's album and tell about him... I felt he tried to explain Suzaku's character to her so that she understood him better, and I see it like an act of a friend, caring one.

This is incorrect. Gino did not go to see Kallen nor did he go to show her something, he was, as he said, looking for Suzaku and thought he'd be there. He then asked her about her heritage. He didn't actually try to explain anything about Suzaku, he just wondered how he could make the man smile.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Eleonore Magilinon

Also I've read (ok, it was geasswiki, and that's why I'm asking) that in Knights of Round-centered light novels (and they do exist for sure since they're selling them on japAmazon) Gino is said to fall in love with their family's japanese (eleven) maid (although of course nothing good came out of this) when he was 14 and that shows that he didn't care about racial differences and that he, well, did take non-Britannian's for humans. I would be glad if somebody confirms that info.

That information is true, but it's not canon to the show. He doesn't treat non-Numbers as people in the show, save for Kallen whose half-blood status "exempts" her.

Originally Posted by Eleonore Magilinon

Well, to add to what I've said in the beginning about light novels... Although I admit him saying what you've quoted but if we are too view it your way it seems like he would enjoy shooting the crowd, and I seriously can't see him doing that... I think (although it's cruel) that he firstly meant it as a joke (and well, his jokes are sometimes a bit too much) and secondly, even if he did mean that, he didn't see it as shooting everybody... He said "if they rebel", and rebellion means using some Knightmares (or else it's just useless) and he was looking forward some combat on the principle "soldier vs soldier" and not just shooting defenceless people of any nation.

Because if we assume he does enjoy it, I see absolutely no reason for him to stop Bradly from torturing Karen and for some reason he did (and it certainly was't him trying to show off his "nobility").

Although the exact sentence was a bit different to this, but with my really imperfect japanese I've heard "katsu" in that sentence, and that doesn't stand only for "purge", buy just to "crash", "break" etc. and could be used about only the active rebels. Also unlike Guilbert for example, he wasn't so eager to mark that million people criminals and attack them, he just said it's Suzaku's decision.

The problem with this is that it's patently untrue and unfaithful to the scene. I'll describe the context of the scene just to carry the point. Gino is talking to a subordinate officer. When saying this, he is referring to the Eleven population within the special zone, which is filled with unarmed civilians. He is not joking, he is actually anticipating the chance to slaughter these people when it looks like they're going to rebel. No Knightmares, no guns, just an out and out slaughter. There is no other way to spin this. He isn't willing to act without orders, but none of the Britannians are and this in no way detracts from the original point.

He stepped in to protect Kallen because he respects her as a pilot, and because Bradley's a jackass. That's pretty much the only reason.

Originally Posted by Eleonore Magilinon

But what did worry me in that story with Zero is the way he thought Zero's deal is good one. Although he was true that without their leader rebels won't be a serious threat any more, but somehow it was low... But it could be explained as him not paying much attention to past sins like in Karen's situation later.

You're missing the point. When Zero was exiled the Black Knights were supposed to rebel and get themselves slaughtered. That was the idea. That's why Gino is ok with it, because it's a pragmatic solution.

Originally Posted by Eleonore Magilinon

Well, it is his nature, at least in the beginning. He's not he has any grand ideas in his head, same for great idea for changing things... One might say it takes a person with determination to actually try something like changing the system. He's just different. But basicly it's just good way to rephrase your statement that he doesn't care much but likes to have fun. But then, members of the Ashfrord Student Council weren't so eager to change the system either, but they're great people, aren't they (I mean most ordinary ones like Rivalz, Sharley, Milly - they haven't tried to protect "elevens" but they did try to help Karen because for them, rebel or not, she was jsut an important friend, even after then knew she was lying to them)

The Ashford Student Council aren't soldiers of the highest level in the Britannian army. They're students who are perfectly accepting of Elevens (Nina nothwithstanding). Gino is gladly discriminatory.

Originally Posted by Eleonore Magilinon

Also I disagree that it's demonstrated in his conversation with Karen. He's merely surprised that she so desicivly chose Japan over Britannia, and pointing out she has a choice. And you know, if I felt right the author's opinion on this, they're with Gino. I mean, she didn't just choose japanese blood over britannian's because she felt it oh so unfair for japanese to be that way. It rather originated from her hatred for her britannian's father who lead her japanese mother to be the way she is. She denying Britannia the same way many britannian's deny japanese (or eleven), and her hatred for Britannia somhow remind's of Lelouch's.

Your understanding of Kallen's motivations is completely contrary to the truth. Quite frankly, you're way off base with the author's opinion. Kallen fights to avenge her brother, not because she hates her father. She hates her mother more than her father at first.

Originally Posted by Eleonore Magilinon

Remember how it all ends (happily) - she does to Ashford while having her favorite hair style and wearing Gurren's key on chain, and it means that she finally accepted both sides of her, both japanese and britannian. And Gino's act was kind of a step in that direction. Pointing out that she's not only japanese, but she's also britannian, and she could choose either side, it's just up to her.
And I haven't seen Gino saying or implying he's stupid while he said all that.

Again missing the point. That's not accepting both sides of her heritage, that's being herself and doing what Lelouch wanted her to do. Japan is Japan now, not a Britannian colony. She is not being Britannian by going back to school.

Originally Posted by Eleonore Magilinon

Plus about him ignoring others... Again, from his actions when stopping Bradly we may assume that he would probably done the same if he had seen it on the streets, although in my opinion it would depend on the situation.

No he wouldn't. He doesn't know or care about the people on the streets. He's never even on the streets.

Originally Posted by Eleonore Magilinon

Taking into account that Shneizel later sides with Black Knights thus completely overlooking all their past deeds, I can't see it as such an awful act. Plus her crimes... if we differiate crimes into the group that should be punished by either sides as it's immoral and crimes of being on the opposite side and basicly doing the same thing they did themselves... Yes, I also see Gino not paying attention to that, but I see it like he just see it the same, their side or not, it's just fighting. Knowing what they're doing themselves he doesn't consider other person doing the same on the other side as "unforgivable criminal".

Schneizel sides with the Black Knights out of necessity, not because they've somehow been forgiven. Gino doesn't see what he's doing as wrong, but he sees the enemy as wrong. Kallen is the enemy, but he ignores this because he finds her interesting.

Originally Posted by Eleonore Magilinon

Well, you of course can interpret it differently, but I see it firstly as him (as most of BK besides Tamaki and other forces opposing Lelouch) seeing through Lelouch's "generous" moves rather than being bothered by the inconvieniences (actually I don't remember him actually bringing up conviniences of being noble or regretting loosing them one bit), since he's, well... not completely stupid, although I'm not even dreaming to say he's exeptionally smart. Plus at that time he was just stoping what actually was coup d'etat, not accepting Emperor who killed the previous one. It's not the matter of his rule being good or bad, but simply the way he did it. And don't see any proof that his actions were based on his dislike for abolishment of noble system or something of the sort.

He didn't see through anything. Suzaku even calls him on it. He fights for Britannia, his Britannia, and he says it quite clearly. When he loses Britannia to Lelouch, he still fights for his Britannia, the racist one.

Originally Posted by Eleonore Magilinon

Here comes a difficult part. I rewatched that and one scene really doesn't make sense to me, and scene in general, not just Gino in it.
But about FLEIJA accident we should start with his shocked face after seeing the effect and saying "That's not war anymore..." It we combine in with his face's expression at the time I would assume the continuation was "but just a massacre". And that would be him actually caring about lives of civilians.

Britannian civilians, not Elevens.

Originally Posted by Eleonore Magilinon

And according to the posts (please tell the stupid me where did you get this translations, where is it from?) he did keep in touch with Ashford students)
And also, when Karen was imprisoned, he did come to show her Suzaku's album and tell about him... I felt he tried to explain Suzaku's character to her so that she understood him better, and I see it like an act of a friend, caring one.

He sends some e-mail that pisses Kallen off. That's hardly keeping in touch. You've yet again misinterpreted the latter scene. He did not come to show Kallen anything. He came looking for Suzaku and thought, "hey, maybe I'll stick around and try to get her to betray her cause."

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

He sends some e-mail that pisses Kallen off. That's hardly keeping in touch. You've yet again misinterpreted the latter scene. He did not come to show Kallen anything. He came looking for Suzaku and thought, "hey, maybe I'll stick around and try to get her to betray her cause."

Which shows, how air-head he is. It was a characteristic-move of him. He is just like a leaf in the wind, flying like wherever that gets him. 8D

Btw, about the e-mails, i would not go as far as to say, they are pissing Kallen off, more like Kallen feels "ahhh, w/e." Certainly, do not impress her though.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by incorrupts

Which shows, how air-head he is. It was a characteristic-move of him. He is just like a leaf in the wind, flying like wherever that gets him. 8D

Btw, about the e-mails, i would not go as far as to say, they are pissing Kallen off, more like Kallen feels "ahhh, w/e." Certainly, do not impress her though.

"Annoyed" then. As the translation indicates, her tone is one that indicates disapproval.

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

"Annoyed" then. As the translation indicates, her tone is one that indicates disapproval.

Fair enough. Sounds reasonable and in character actually. 8)

[Eleonore Magilinon]

Originally Posted by Frostfire

These aren't canon, it was dismissed by the show's staff and the show itself through contradiction. It is, for lack of a better word, made up by the author of the light novels to give Gino background, but it doesn't fit within the anime rendition.

It's also not good, he let the woman he loved get thrown out and then joined a military that oppresses her people. It isn't even logical within the context of the made up junk that it is.

Originally Posted by morbosfist

That information is true, but it's not canon to the show. He doesn't treat non-Numbers as people in the show, save for Kallen whose half-blood status "exempts" her.

Well, after seeing how Sound Episodes and other stuff are taken into account I thought that anything more or less related (as long as it's official, and it is) can be considered canon. Especially when I don't see the contradiction, but well, different opinions on this.

Originally Posted by morbosfist

The problem with this is that it's patently untrue and unfaithful to the scene. I'll describe the context of the scene just to carry the point. Gino is talking to a subordinate officer. When saying this, he is referring to the Eleven population within the special zone, which is filled with unarmed civilians. He is not joking, he is actually anticipating the chance to slaughter these people when it looks like they're going to rebel. No Knightmares, no guns, just an out and out slaughter. There is no other way to spin this. He isn't willing to act without orders, but none of the Britannians are and this in no way detracts from the original point.

He stepped in to protect Kallen because he respects her as a pilot, and because Bradley's a jackass. That's pretty much the only reason.

Originally Posted by Frostfire

He wasn't joking, his henchemen were taken aback by his words and he was quite sure of his decision, especially since he was prepare his knightmare. He was waiting for the pretext to shoot civilians, like what Viletta nearly did. He and the Britannians would have marched in on unarmed civilians with Knightmares. There were no other knightmares there, so there is no Knightmare vs. Knightmare combat to be had. The entire point of the Rebellion done through the SAZ is one through peaceful means, everyone knew that, Suzaku even scolded Gino for his ignorance. Lelouch/Zero were succeeding in a rebellion without firing a shot. You also have incorrect what he said, he said that "Zero had given them the wonderful pretext for a purge." He's talking about silencing the rebellion by erasing the people rebelling. A purge =/= honorable. All he needed to do it was one shot, had Viletta shot instead of being stopped by Ougi, all those Japanese would have been killed, with Gino leading in his little "purge". Contextually it is most appropriately purge, there are better words to use for break/crash in the context and not possibly mean purge. Also, there was no discerning rebel from civilian in that situation, everyone was a rebel and everyone was marked to be killed.

His enjoyment has nothing to do with Kallen because: He doesn't stop Bradley from doing anything to Kallen, he simply questions Luciano's honor. He doesn't bar Luciano from anything, Nunally does that. His presence there was probably also because he had just attacked Suzaku moments before. If you also take what betteroffer said later, Gino does not believe in Kallen's choice of the hard life. He has personal interest in converting her for his own interests. So it has nothing to do with his views on other people.

His bout with Bradley was because of Suzaku.

He was prepared in the Knightmare simply because it's his job. KoR are of no use on the ground if the situation get out of hand (Suzaku in that situation acted rather like Nunnally's representative then KoR). But I rewatched it again, I admit you're right, I thought revolt was meant as a planned thing, but now I see, it was meant as people revolting after hearing Zero betrayed them. Right. My opinion of Gino of that time lowered greatly))))
But than again, we never saw him actually doing anything of the sort, so we'll never know if it was just his usual way with words (he's always too much when he talks and is quite cruel) or he would really do that (although I admit it's probable).
But still, the idea of him enjoying the slaghter of unarmed civilians makes him same as Bradley and seriously contradict in my mind with him "questioning Bradley's honor" (which means that his ideas are somewhat different) and him being able to respect his opponent.
Plus the idea about him picking up with Bradley because of Suzaku contradicts both the theory that he doesn't care about anybody and the fact he was not present while the argument took place.

Originally Posted by Frostfire

The first part is not correct. Kallen did not choose Japanese over Britannian until her brother was killed by Britannians. She may have resented her father, but she also understands that he let her live a good life and kept her mother around. She doesn't hate him enough to hate her blood because of him, she simply dislikes that he "abbandoned them". The hatred she has for Britannia is because of her brother's death.

Originally Posted by morbosfist

Your understanding of Kallen's motivations is completely contrary to the truth. Quite frankly, you're way off base with the author's opinion. Kallen fights to avenge her brother, not because she hates her father. She hates her mother more than her father at first.

Again missing the point. That's not accepting both sides of her heritage, that's being herself and doing what Lelouch wanted her to do. Japan is Japan now, not a Britannian colony. She is not being Britannian by going back to school.

I admit that failing to mention her brother was a mistake on my part, but I believe it wasn't her only reason (although main). But also, hatred for Britannia because of her brother's death sound even closer to Lelouch's reasons) And I don't remember her giving any hint that she understands she owns him. For Kallen of the beginning her "britannian" life is nothing more than a cover.
And about her hating her mother... because she's weak and gave up... That's Karen, and for example, we have her saying she really hates Suzaku several times, and from what she said in their final battle she still respected him and thought that although by different means he still fought for the same thing. So with her words that she hates her mother... You can't hate your mother because she's not strong willed. But Kallen is a person usually not honest with herself.

And that's what I was talking about when I said about author's opinion. In the beginning Kallen is portraited not only as a person trying to change the situation and help oppressed people, but also as I person rejecting everything about Britannia she hated, she hated her school and school life, disliked students there, she hated being called Kallen Stadtfield... And it is shown how she also changes through the series (and that's probably one of the reasons for her to tell us the "ending", as well as being a person who saw Zero's actions from the beginning to the end, knew and understood in the end both Lelouch and Suzaku, her changes are show us other, small but important changes Lelouch brought with his actions), beginning to understand that it's more complicated than just "bad Britannia" and in the end finding her true self. "Being herself" is it was said does mean accepting who she is, both japanese and britannian. The prooves that she did accept her britannian's heritage are both in her doing back to Ashford (and although it's not Area 11 any more, I'm sure it's still being run by Ashfords (or uniform and stuff would have changed)) and its not just because of Lelouch (although it's vertainly part of it, sorry I forgot to mention that), she's happy to go there and also she's standing with Ashford students, basicly on "britannian" side on Oghi and Viletta's wedding picture (although she was far closer to Oghi than Viletta). It's not like she became britannian, but she finally accepted herself that she's also britannian and has great friends who are britannians.

Originally Posted by morbosfist

The Ashford Student Council aren't soldiers of the highest level in the Britannian army. They're students who are perfectly accepting of Elevens (Nina nothwithstanding). Gino is gladly discriminatory.

I didn't see any difference in their act while together, I didn't see any more discrimination (while being students). As for his post I already said that he isn't a type of person to actively do anything grant like trying to reform something. But he doesn't show any particular dislike for what Suzaku's trying to do (and that's just that, reforming from inside). As for the Lelouch's actions later, it was a reason other than him reforming Britannia that made him fight.

Originally Posted by Frostfire

The example is completely different. Schneizel is the heir to the throne and a prince and has a DOOM fortress, Kallen is just a soldier who has killed countless Britannians. He is in affect telling Kallen that if she switches sides, all the blood on her hands would be wiped clean. Schneizel's record isn't wiped clean, he's not even trusted by his allies.

Originally Posted by morbosfist

Schneizel sides with the Black Knights out of necessity, not because they've somehow been forgiven. Gino doesn't see what he's doing as wrong, but he sees the enemy as wrong. Kallen is the enemy, but he ignores this because he finds her interesting.

And Schneizel still sides with the whole organization that killed thousands of britannian people and even "gives" them Japan, and that's acceptible. Taking into account that Kallen is BK's ace, it might also be considered "necessity" to get her on their side. And if we imagine Kallen seriously agreeing, I just see her being accepted without problem (if they have reasons to believe her). Other thing is that it's beyond impossible for Kallen to do at that moment. But I agree that it does question morals, but it's quite usual and only in CG.

Originally Posted by Frostfire

Britannian Civilians.

Originally Posted by morbosfist

Britannian civilians, not Elevens.

Both Nina and Anya noted while discussing if FLEIJA should be attached to Suzaku's Knightmare that it'll be massacre of "elevens", it was quite clear. So what made such an impression on Gino was not just britannian's deaths.

Originally Posted by morbosfist

He didn't see through anything. Suzaku even calls him on it. He fights for Britannia, his Britannia, and he says it quite clearly. When he loses Britannia to Lelouch, he still fights for his Britannia, the racist one.

Originally Posted by Frostfire

Seeing through? He says it himself that he does not agree with Lelouch's Britannia. At this point in time, Lelouch and Suzaku had done nothing bad, they had freed the areas and set the world into an era of cooperation and presperity. Lelouch took power just like how Schneizel wanted to take power, and exactly how every other Emperor has taken power. It is Charles' moto that his heir must defeat him.

Again, I don't get why you assume that it's his racism and dislike of Lelouch's decision to abolish the noble system that is driving him. Around the only time his nobility was brought up not as a joke was the time he disliked being thought of just as a noble who got everything because of his status. Also from the person he is (good or bad) I think he is the person who'll get what he need himself if he feels like he need it, although of course he's not against it being brought to him on a golden plate. But it's not like he's attached to it. (That's why I do think the idea from the novel of him leaving home to join military is quite natural.)
First he was just doing the same thing as with Schneizel, simply not admitting coup d'etat. And no matter what Charles himself thought, it was Knight of One who was loyal personally to him, Gino was loyal... well, maybe we can say to the system of royal Britannia (not to the pronciples of oppression), and thinks of everybody who think of killing (or kill) the Emperor to become the next one is a traitor. It doesn't matter to him what he does, it's just wrong from the beginning. (I'm quite sure that if Lelouch somehow got Emperor to officially sign the succession of right for the throne to him or something like that which looked fair, Gino would be on new Emperor's side no matter what reforms he would bring.)

But yesterday I rewatched last 5 eps and got a lot out of it. While my opinion of original Gino lowered quite dramaticly (thanks to the discussion =)), I see that around the time Suzaku questioned him what he's fighting for (and I'm quite sure it was part of the plan, as Gino was the only he left alive, although Suzaku could easily finish him, and then he predicted (knowing him) Gino would join BK and after living through Zero Requiem would become part of the new Britannia's force, there's no other reason to continuesly let him live later in the battles) Gino actually started to change.
Of course I'll be laughed at for quoting his phrase "I think now I understand youe feelings just a little", but I believe it wasn't put there for nothing and can't be ignored. Also, he joined not some pure "old" Britannia's force (Shneizel for example, as although they were allies Schneizel and BK didn't always coorperate, for example Schneizel hid in Cambodia all the time during the UN hostage case), but asked to join Black Knights, international organization wwhich also clearly fought not for "his" old Britannia (as you say he is) but new and reformed one. Supporting them would mean bringing grave changes to Britannia and he knew that.
So I see it as he found something outside of his view of just a person loyal to Britannia (as he wasn't any more), his ideas, and because of his comment to Kallen, these ideas wasn't of racist past.

[bladeofdarkness]

A)when was it shown kallen hated the ashford students, at all ?
aside from comments on "thats why i dislike britannians" after they act crazy and get her wet she is never shown hostile or hateful of any of them
she has friends in school in her class who clearly were worried about her being "sick" in ep 3
she is worried about the SC when they get taken hostage (and proud of helping to save them)
and she shows real concern for them near the end of season 1 (hoping they get to safty)
she may dislike britannian culture becouse its built on the ruins of japan's, but she is never shown to feel the same way towards the britannian's themselves


B)shnizel sided with an the OOBK who killed thousends of britaninans after he HIMSELF had just nuked pendragon and killed MILLIONS
so not siding with them on THAT accunt would have been the pot calling the kettle black

C)the flejia hit the tokyo settlement
where few japanese live and almost all of the people are britannian
and the list of deaths that is shown while nina freaks out in ep 19 is almost entirely britannian

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

A)when was it shown kallen hated the ashford students, at all ?
aside from comments on "thats why i dislike britannians" after they act crazy and get her wet she is never shown hostile or hateful of any of them
she has friends in school in her class who clearly were worried about her being "sick" in ep 3
she is worried about the SC when they get taken hostage (and proud of helping to save them)
and she shows real concern for them near the end of season 1 (hoping they get to safty)
she may dislike britannian culture becouse its built on the ruins of japan's, but she is never shown to feel the same way towards the britannian's themselves

True. She just hated the monarchy-elitists {such as Cornelia and Euphie and so on, she was shown raging towards them quite a few times} and the people, that do actually are involved in the system she loathes pretty much.

About the students, not at all. She has actually grown to care a lot about the Student Council specifically. Sure, she had some nice fetishes with her knife-pocket in the first epis {lol} but as series do progress, she actually values them a lot.

[Frostfire]

Originally Posted by Eleonore Magilinon

Well, after seeing how Sound Episodes and other stuff are taken into account I thought that anything more or less related (as long as it's official, and it is) can be considered canon. Especially when I don't see the contradiction, but well, different opinions on this.

Sound Episode are made by the staff and are purposefully crack. They are made for fun with no relevance on the reality of the story. The KoR Light Novels are written by someone entirely different, and unrelated to the staff. They are that author's own ideas not the staffs and the contradictions are in the show.

Bradley's comments about Gino being the "Silver Spoon Knight" do not make sense with the story given in the KoR novel for Gino. This is no surprising as the little jousting of words between Bradley and Gino came after the KoR novels, or so I recall.

Sound Episodes, KoR Novels, and so on are not canon, the only canon thing that the staff has even remotely supported were the Picture Dramas (mostly in Season 1) and less than half of the Sound Episodes of Season 1. Most of R2's bonus is crack and not canon in the sense that it is part of the canon of the show.

Originally Posted by Eleonore Magilinon

He was prepared in the Knightmare simply because it's his job. KoR are of no use on the ground if the situation get out of hand (Suzaku in that situation acted rather like Nunnally's representative then KoR). But I rewatched it again, I admit you're right, I thought revolt was meant as a planned thing, but now I see, it was meant as people revolting after hearing Zero betrayed them. Right. My opinion of Gino of that time lowered greatly))))
But than again, we never saw him actually doing anything of the sort, so we'll never know if it was just his usual way with words (he's always too much when he talks and is quite cruel) or he would really do that (although I admit it's probable).
But still, the idea of him enjoying the slaghter of unarmed civilians makes him same as Bradley and seriously contradict in my mind with him "questioning Bradley's honor" (which means that his ideas are somewhat different) and him being able to respect his opponent.
Plus the idea about him picking up with Bradley because of Suzaku contradicts both the theory that he doesn't care about anybody and the fact he was not present while the argument took place.

And yet the other KoR were not preparing their knightmares. The only person anticipating the slaughter was Gino.

Bradley does not massacre civilians. He likes to kill people in battle and earn his glory through it. That is what he said, he enjoys killing people and he enjoys killing them in battle. But "honor" of torturing a prisoner is far different from "honor" of wanting to commit a purging. Gino's own honor for "sticking up" for Kallen is also just a shallow personal interest, he wanted to try and convert her, which failed and he then condemned her hopes for the future.

I never said Gino doesn't care about people, at most I would say he is narrowminded. He simply stops caring about them when it is no longer convenient for him, like with Suzaku. As for him not having seen the nonsense between Luciano and Suzaku, why did he even appear where Kallen was? A place he's not allowed to be, when she was clearly not his interest on any subsequent visit for why he was there. He was there for Suzaku more than anything. His not having seen the dispute does not mean he'd overhear about it. It may not even have anything to do with Suzaku or Kallen, it could just be bad blood between him and Luciano, which is very believable.

Originally Posted by Eleonore Magilinon

I admit that failing to mention her brother was a mistake on my part, but I believe it wasn't her only reason (although main). But also, hatred for Britannia because of her brother's death sound even closer to Lelouch's reasons) And I don't remember her giving any hint that she understands she owns him. For Kallen of the beginning her "britannian" life is nothing more than a cover.
And about her hating her mother... because she's weak and gave up... That's Karen, and for example, we have her saying she really hates Suzaku several times, and from what she said in their final battle she still respected him and thought that although by different means he still fought for the same thing. So with her words that she hates her mother... You can't hate your mother because she's not strong willed. But Kallen is a person usually not honest with herself.

Her reason was because of her brother's death. The author stated so much, that is why she fights. There are no ifs ands or buts about it, her reasons are very similar to Lelouch's reasons for fighting. In the beggining Kallen's life was a normal one, that had both Britannian part and Japanese parts. It wasn't until her brother died that it went to hell. (What do you mean she understands she owns him? Are you referring to Lelouch's wish for her to be herself? That was also stated by the creators.)

She hates Suzaku because he: tried to refrain her. Refrain. The same thing that nearly destroyed her mother, prior to that she does not hate Suzaku, she is simply his opponent and does not agree with his way of thinking. Kallen hates her mother, again, not because she is weak, but because she believes that her mother allowed her family to fall apart. Her mother, unlike her father, didn't explicitly do anything for them. Her father was the one who arranged that her identity be secret and that she be able to live a good life, her mother, conversely, did nothing. That is why Kallen hates her, not because she is weak.

Originally Posted by Eleonore Magilinon

And that's what I was talking about when I said about author's opinion. In the beginning Kallen is portraited not only as a person trying to change the situation and help oppressed people, but also as I person rejecting everything about Britannia she hated, she hated her school and school life, disliked students there, she hated being called Kallen Stadtfield... And it is shown how she also changes through the series (and that's probably one of the reasons for her to tell us the "ending", as well as being a person who saw Zero's actions from the beginning to the end, knew and understood in the end both Lelouch and Suzaku, her changes are show us other, small but important changes Lelouch brought with his actions), beginning to understand that it's more complicated than just "bad Britannia" and in the end finding her true self. "Being herself" is it was said does mean accepting who she is, both japanese and britannian. The prooves that she did accept her britannian's heritage are both in her doing back to Ashford (and although it's not Area 11 any more, I'm sure it's still being run by Ashfords (or uniform and stuff would have changed)) and its not just because of Lelouch (although it's vertainly part of it, sorry I forgot to mention that), she's happy to go there and also she's standing with Ashford students, basicly on "britannian" side on Oghi and Viletta's wedding picture (although she was far closer to Oghi than Viletta). It's not like she became britannian, but she finally accepted herself that she's also britannian and has great friends who are britannians.

You have a strange view on the author's opinion when most of the things you've said are in contradiction to that opinion as stated by the creator/author. Kallen is also not even trying to change the situation, when everything starts, she's at the end of her rope and she's just waiting to die. She had lost hope and was basically clawing at the insides of her coffin. She did not hate her school nor did she just hate Britannians. She hated the system.

The reason Kallen told the ending is not because of her evolution or because she somehow changed. She tells the ending because she is the one and only person who understood Lelouch's plan without voodoo magic. She is the person who knows what Lelouch wanted for the world and for herself.

There is no "just bad Britannia" and I don't know where you are getting the idea from. Kallen did not just resent the people and the nation for no reason, she resented the system and the racist assholes that used it. Kallen never did not accept her own heritage, Lelouch made her quite aware of that in S1 when he helped her find friends in Ashford. They had become her friends long before R2's ending, so your point is entirely moot in that sense.

And, it is all because of Lelouch. She says so herself in her poem, and its stated about her character several times, and its pretty obvious in the show itself. Lelouch was the reason she changed. She's not on the Britannian side of the wedding unless Tianzi and that fat Chinese man are suddenly part of the Japanese side. The picture is a mesh of people possing, They did not sort themselves out by race.

I don't know what you're trying to accomplish, the author stated himself that Kallen's change is because of Lelouch. He is why she became what she became, it has nothing to do with any one else, least of all Gino. For whom the same show ends them as "nothing more than comrades" and the PD puts the two as friends with some issues. He is in no way comparable to what Lelouch was for Kallen.

Originally Posted by Eleonore Magilinon

Both Nina and Anya noted while discussing if FLEIJA should be attached to Suzaku's Knightmare that it'll be massacre of "elevens", it was quite clear. So what made such an impression on Gino was not just britannian's deaths.

The show shows it, the casualties are predominantely and for the large part Britannian. Yes, it was a whole lot of Britannians and very, very few Japanese. Gino isn't taken aback by the death of anything more than a bunch of his people. Look at the names that Nina's looking at, they are all Britannian.

Originally Posted by Eleonore Magilinon

But yesterday I rewatched last 5 eps and got a lot out of it. While my opinion of original Gino lowered quite dramaticly (thanks to the discussion =)), I see that around the time Suzaku questioned him what he's fighting for (and I'm quite sure it was part of the plan, as Gino was the only he left alive, although Suzaku could easily finish him, and then he predicted (knowing him) Gino would join BK and after living through Zero Requiem would become part of the new Britannia's force, there's no other reason to continuesly let him live later in the battles) Gino actually started to change.
Of course I'll be laughed at for quoting his phrase "I think now I understand youe feelings just a little", but I believe it wasn't put there for nothing and can't be ignored. Also, he joined not some pure "old" Britannia's force (Shneizel for example, as although they were allies Schneizel and BK didn't always coorperate, for example Schneizel hid in Cambodia all the time during the UN hostage case), but asked to join Black Knights, international organization wwhich also clearly fought not for "his" old Britannia (as you say he is) but new and reformed one. Supporting them would mean bringing grave changes to Britannia and he knew that.
So I see it as he found something outside of his view of just a person loyal to Britannia (as he wasn't any more), his ideas, and because of his comment to Kallen, these ideas wasn't of racist past.

That may be the case, that he found that being a racist prick wasn't the best thing, but that won't suddenly make him stop being a racist prick. Not to mention that his comment may well have to do with fighting his nation, something like what Kallen did, for what he believes in. Which could still mean he believes in his own racist views. The line is so shallow and undeveloped past any point that its impossible to say for what reason Gino was even fighting at the end.

The ending is so contradictory for Gino's role that I don't even want to bother thinking about it. He sides with the BK who are siding with Schneizel who just blew up Pendragon, killing several million people. But Gino does not seem to care and sides with the man, yet he minds Lelouch's take over of Britannia. Gino one of the largest most painful plot holes in this show.

Also, there's no indication that Gino joined the BK. He is still fighting as a KoR, in his KoR uniform, in his KoR unit, and he still talks about personal reasons when fighting Suzaku and Lelouch. He's not part of the Black Knights, he's his own force.

[Eleonore Magilinon]

It's funny how most of the people ar trying to proove she's grown to care about Ashford students when it's exactly what I've told. And as I don't see her capable of that from the beginning, I see it as a development.
And yes, they became her friends way before R2 and that doesn't contradict what I've said.

I don't know what you're trying to accomplish, the author stated himself that Kallen's change is because of Lelouch. He is why she became what she became, it has nothing to do with any one else, least of all Gino. For whom the same show ends them as "nothing more than comrades" and the PD puts the two as friends with some issues. He is in no way comparable to what Lelouch was for Kallen.

Originally Posted by Eleonore Magilinon

and that's probably one of the reasons for her to tell us the "ending", as well as being a person who saw Zero's actions from the beginning to the end, knew and understood in the end both Lelouch and Suzaku, her changes are show us other, small but important changes Lelouch brought with his actions

And where's the contradiction. I've said just that, Lelouch and his actions through the series changed her.

The reason Kallen told the ending is not because of her evolution or because she somehow changed. She tells the ending because she is the one and only person who understood Lelouch's plan without voodoo magic. She is the person who knows what Lelouch wanted for the world and for herself.

There're people like Nunnally, who understood him in the end, and there's Suzaku as Zero who probably understood him even better.
But I see her telling the ending because she's seen Lelouch's plans more than anybody else, although not till the very end, and because she's an indicator of how Lelouch and his action changed people, as an example of the person whos life was so dramaticly changed thanks to him.

She's not on the Britannian side of the wedding unless Tianzi and that fat Chinese man are suddenly part of the Japanese side. The picture is a mesh of people possing, They did not sort themselves out by race.

Ok, but all britannians did gather on side and all japanese (and other nations, well, china and japan were old allies, well, more time in R2 than any other) but Kallen on the other. Of course they didn't sort themselves out but it just happened somehow and plus I think some people well... wouldn't feel especially happy standing next to each other, like Lloyd and Rakshata, and that somehow made people close to Oghi thus japanese (Tianzu most probably staying there because she's close to Kaguya and Kaguya is japanese) stand on one side and people close to Viletta on the other. Thus I pointed out that Kallen stood with her Ashford friends rather than with her BK friends, it's not that she preffered that but she didn't mind and was quite happy about that and wasn't ashamed to show it openly.
(Sidenote - she was sooo cute on that pic!)

Her reason was because of her brother's death. The author stated so much, that is why she fights. There are no ifs ands or buts about it, her reasons are very similar to Lelouch's reasons for fighting. In the beggining Kallen's life was a normal one, that had both Britannian part and Japanese parts. It wasn't until her brother died that it went to hell. (What do you mean she understands she owns him? Are you referring to Lelouch's wish for her to be herself? That was also stated by the creators.)

No, I meant the statement was about her father, "but she also understands that he let her live a good life and kept her mother around."
And about her similarity to Lelouch, I've said just that.
And about her mother... not doing anything in this situation could be considered the same as not having strong will to do something, since it was't easy. I called it being weak, but well, I've meant the same thing.
And about Suzaku, I was trying to show that in Kallen's book word "hate" doesn't always mean the feeling. You basicly confirmed that. Although in my opinion she didn't really hate him even afterwards. Just extremely pissed off, that he did something like that and then came to apologize thus not letting her hate him propely)

I don't know what you're trying to accomplish, the author stated himself that Kallen's change is because of Lelouch. He is why she became what she became, it has nothing to do with any one else, least of all Gino. For whom the same show ends them as "nothing more than comrades" and the PD puts the two as friends with some issues. He is in no way comparable to what Lelouch was for Kallen.

When I was talking about Kallen and her character, it was just about her (without any back thought about Gino), I'm sane, I'm not trying to say it was Gino who changed her or something (although I did say he might have had a tiny contribution to that).

And I did notice that most of the names on the death list were Britannian, and that surprised me after what Anya and Nina said, and as I thought they knew better than killing millions of their own people I thought the list was either currently about Britannians or just only for Britannians (seems logical as they didn't care much about elevens anyway). So I still think that more japanese died than britannians.

And I wonder if I'm bad at explaining myself as the last comments seems to try to correct me while basicly saying the same thing (well, from my point of view). I apologize and try to be more accurate in the future)

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Eleonore Magilinon

And about Suzaku, I was trying to show that in Kallen's book word "hate" doesn't always mean the feeling. You basicly confirmed that. Although in my opinion she didn't really hate him even afterwards. Just extremely pissed off, that he did something like that and then came to apologize thus not letting her hate him propely)

She was pissed off because he tried to act like it was some minor thing you can just excuse and be done with.

Originally Posted by Eleonore Magilinon

When I was talking about Kallen and her character, it was just about her (without any back thought about Gino), I'm sane, I'm not trying to say it was Gino who changed her or something (although I did say he might have had a tiny contribution to that).

He didn't, at all.

Originally Posted by Eleonore Magilinon

And I did notice that most of the names on the death list were Britannian, and that surprised me after what Anya and Nina said, and as I thought they knew better than killing millions of their own people I thought the list was either currently about Britannians or just only for Britannians (seems logical as they didn't care much about elevens anyway). So I still think that more japanese died than britannians.

You're not making any sense. Anya and Nina are talking about Suzaku nuking the Black Knights, not the center of the Tokyo Settlement. The Britannian population was hit the hardest, plain and simple. Elevens don't live dead-center of the settlement. They live on the outskirts.

[Frostfire]

Originally Posted by Eleonore Magilinon

It's funny how most of the people ar trying to proove she's grown to care about Ashford students when it's exactly what I've told. And as I don't see her capable of that from the beginning, I see it as a development.
And yes, they became her friends way before R2 and that doesn't contradict what I've said.

You said that she hated Britannians, and her school life, and the people at Ashford, which is not true. She did not hate any of them and she had friends or at very least acquaintance at Ashford before everything started. That was what was being pointed out to you.

Originally Posted by Eleonore Magilinon

And where's the contradiction. I've said just that, Lelouch and his actions through the series changed her.

The point is, it was only Lelouch's. Originally you had talked about how Gino helped her on her way to accepting both parts, which he did not. He did not help her in any way toward that end, in fact he told her her Japanese half was inferior to her Britannian half. That's counter productive.

Originally Posted by Eleonore Magilinon

There're people like Nunnally, who understood him in the end, and there's Suzaku as Zero who probably understood him even better.
But I see her telling the ending because she's seen Lelouch's plans more than anybody else, although not till the very end, and because she's an indicator of how Lelouch and his action changed people, as an example of the person whos life was so dramaticly changed thanks to him.

Nunally did not understand the plan, she just saw it with her voodoo magic. Kallen is the only one "alive" who understood the plan and what Lelouch did for everyone. Suzaku is, for lack of a better term, dead and he cannot be giving the epilogue that has to do with the future. As for why Kallen is telling it, it has to do with Lelouch's wish for her. She was the one he wished to live and have her dream come true.

Lelouch's actions changed her but they changed countless people, they changed Suzaku too, just as much as Kallen. But the reason she's giving it is because it was more than just "change".

Originally Posted by Eleonore Magilinon

No, I meant the statement was about her father, "but she also understands that he let her live a good life and kept her mother around."
And about her similarity to Lelouch, I've said just that.
And about her mother... not doing anything in this situation could be considered the same as not having strong will to do something, since it was't easy. I called it being weak, but well, I've meant the same thing.
And about Suzaku, I was trying to show that in Kallen's book word "hate" doesn't always mean the feeling. You basicly confirmed that. Although in my opinion she didn't really hate him even afterwards. Just extremely pissed off, that he did something like that and then came to apologize thus not letting her hate him propely)

Kallen doesn't hate her mother for being weak, you're just spinning the words. She blames her for not doing anything and letting her family fall apart. Never does she dismiss her mother, or anyone for that matter, because they are weak. Her entire purpose was to protect those who couldn't protect themselves and fight for her nation.

She hated him, he was about to drug her with what nearly killed her mother.

Originally Posted by Eleonore Magilinon

And I did notice that most of the names on the death list were Britannian, and that surprised me after what Anya and Nina said, and as I thought they knew better than killing millions of their own people I thought the list was either currently about Britannians or just only for Britannians (seems logical as they didn't care much about elevens anyway). So I still think that more japanese died than britannians.

And I wonder if I'm bad at explaining myself as the last comments seems to try to correct me while basicly saying the same thing (well, from my point of view). I apologize and try to be more accurate in the future)

Most of the names? All of the names are. Several million britannians lived in the area that was bomb, little to no Japanese lived there. The Japanese had all been moved out from that area, Cornelia established that fact in Season 1. The Japanese are limited to the Ghettos, the Britannians live in Tokyo.

[Eleonore Magilinon]

You're not making any sense. Anya and Nina are talking about Suzaku nuking the Black Knights, not the center of the Tokyo Settlement. The Britannian population was hit the hardest, plain and simple. Elevens don't live dead-center of the settlement. They live on the outskirts.

They did plan to use it in uncoming combat. And he did use it on BK, slightly missed (the difference if he hit Guren would have been mere meters), but seeing the damage it had done, it would have been like this either way. I don't know if Nina was so stupid misjudging the damage while telling Suzaku to shoot or just plain crazy about killing Zero, but it's starting not to make sense to me. I don't get how everybody - Lloyd, Anya and Nina - didn't predict such an outcome of FLEIJA was to be used. It was obvious.
They just didn't mind millions of Britannians dying?

You said that she hated Britannians, and her school life, and the people at Ashford, which is not true. She did not hate any of them and she had friends or at very least acquaintance at Ashford before everything started. That was what was being pointed out to you.

Well, she did have a strong dislike for all the britannians beating up "elevens" and I don't see her liking students that are there just because their families are rich becuase of "elevens" working on them. All right, "hate" is too much, but dislike/irritation certainly. And we don't know if it was true about her friends before joining Student Council, or just a front not to attract attention. And she got into student council mostly because of Lelouch.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Eleonore Magilinon

They did plan to use it in uncoming combat. And he did use it on BK, slightly missed (the difference if he hit Guren would have been mere meters), but seeing the damage it had done, it would have been like this either way. I don't know if Nina was so stupid misjudging the damage while telling Suzaku to shoot or just plain crazy about killing Zero, but it's starting not to make sense to me. I don't get how everybody - Lloyd, Anya and Nina - didn't predict such an outcome of FLEIJA was to be used. It was obvious.
They just didn't mind millions of Britannians dying?

He didn't miss by mere meters. He missed by a good half a mile and it detonated near the government complex, smack dab in the center of Tokyo. The intention was to use it on the main forces of the Black Knights. Suzaku's an idiot and brought it into a crowded population center. They never expected Lelouch to invade Tokyo directly. No matter how you argue it, he did not kill more Japanese than Britannians. He killed millions of Britannian civilians.

Originally Posted by Eleonore Magilinon

Well, she did have a strong dislike for all the britannians beating up "elevens" and I don't see her liking students that are there just because their families are rich becuase of "elevens" working on them. All right, "hate" is too much, but dislike/irritation certainly. And we don't know if it was true about her friends before joining Student Council, or just a front not to attract attention. And she got into student council mostly because of Lelouch.

What are you talking about? No one is rich because of the Elevens working for them. That's just plain silly. They're rich because they're nobles or business owners.

[Eleonore Magilinon]

The point is, it was only Lelouch's. Originally you had talked about how Gino helped her on her way to accepting both parts, which he did not. He did not help her in any way toward that end, in fact he told her her Japanese half was inferior to her Britannian half. That's counter productive.

Ok, it was a mistake on my part, I correct myself after seriously rewatching it and separating what I wanted to see there and what I've actually sen.

She blames her for not doing anything and letting her family fall apart.

And why did her mother let her family apart (although I don't even see much of a full family to begin with, or you mean just her and Naoto)? I see it as not having a will not to let it fall apart.

What are you talking about? No one is rich because of the Elevens working for them. That's just plain silly. They're rich because they're nobles or business owners.

Em, and who is working for their fortunes? Most of bisness also rely on some labor man in the core, especially all production. Money come from somewhere. And we see both Cornelia and Miss Romeyer talking about loosing the workforce of elevens. And even if they work for the government than it goes mostly to nobles because they're nobles.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Eleonore Magilinon

Em, and who is working for their fortunes? Most of bisness also rely on some labor man in the core, especially all production. Money come from somewhere. And we see both Cornelia and Miss Romeyer talking about loosing the workforce of elevens. And even if they work for the government than it goes mostly to nobles because they're nobles.

The labor doesn't change the fact that the business is what gains them their fortunes, and not all labor is done by Elevens.

[Eleonore Magilinon]

The labor doesn't change the fact that the business is what gains them their fortunes, and not all labor is done by Elevens.

Elevens and other Numbers mostly. Every Empire works this way, using the resources (including human ones) of concoured countries.
Remember the real Empire of Great Britain and its excessive use of colonies, India for example.

And I assume mostly it works like Empire giving them monopoly and also sometimes is like selling some facilities to them (so they take care of them, it's more effective) or making them administrators (examples from real life strategies, for example there're some historic figues who got excessivly rich because they were given/bought governmental property(companies) and then used it more effectively, and most of them based their bisness on cheap workforce - and here we do have really cheap workforce). And government does use workforce of elevens and other numbers.

[morbosfist]

You're oversimplifying. You assume that every bit of wealth solely originates from cheap labor. It doesn't work like that. Cheap labor is only part of the equation. If the goods can't be sold then there's no profit. Furthermore, your assumption of monopolies is also shown to be untrue. There wouldn't be advertising from an in-universe perspective for a monopolistic company. Knightmare design was also a competitive business. People aren't rich because they have Eleven labor. It is stupid to make such a generalized claim. Some businesses aren't even labor-intensive.

Fact is, we don't even know what Kallen's dad does, other than it requires him to be away from home often. This would imply his job is logistical in nature, and thus not based on cheap labor.