[Manga] Chapter 449 Discussion

[Phenomenal]

Originally Posted by james0246

...I am not sure what you do not understand. Pain was firm and unmalleable in its beliefs and dedication to its cause. Nagato, though, needs a few cheap words from a person whose name is only one character off from his own, in order to sacrifice everything he had previously believed in. They may be the same person, but by there very actions, they are literally 180 degrees seperate from each other. Trust me, I completely understand the symbolic nature of Naruto and Nagato's relationship that Kishimoto is trying to shove down our throats, I simply do not buy the "conversion". The logical leaps that Nagato had to make should have been impossible for a wheelchair bound individual, but Naruto must have the healing touch, because his paltry responses allowed Nagato to make those extraordinary leaps of logic, and now we are forced into a situation were all of the drama and intense character development created by Pain is all of a sudden almost meaningless.

Everyone has a plan 'till they get punched in the mouth.

[aliasxn]

Raw is out.

I was still hoping the spoilers were fake, but no such luck...

[Hisoka??]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

The revival of people can be beliveable but only if the revived people are those who had their soul sucked out by Pain and not those who were physically killed. What i mean is that this would not be real revival but just the reverse of pulling out the soul.

Why is it that there was no rage about Pain being able to simply pull out the soul of people ?! I think that was the greates haxx jutsu i've ever seen in this manga, i mean before Pain revive jutsu. At first it seems completely ridiculous that Pain can do this without any effort on any number of people while the 3rd and 4th hokage had to die just to pull out one (or a few) soul(s). When Pain defeated Jiraiya why didn't he pull out his soul? And so on...

As for Kakashi: he should not be revived by Pain but be revived by the slug's chakra and medical ninjas. And all those who were exploded should stay dead. In that case i think the revival of a part of Konoha's ninja would be quite beliveable, considering that it is just the reverse of what Pain has already done.

There is one good side of this ending: Nagato had a graceful death, a death that is not shameful for a rinnegan user. If he were simply killed by konoha ninja then it would be a total failure of Nagato, the rinnegan user. The other possibility would be that he escapes, since Naruto spared him, but that would be even more shameful, then we would have a sharingan user who is laughing that a young boy defeated the rinnegan, we would have Madara joking about how pathetic Nagato/Pain is, that would be an even greater shame for the rinnegan. This was the only way to remove the rinnegan and Nagato from the story but not ruin the image of the rinnegan and Nagato.

there was no rage about the soul sucking because he never did it to any high lvl ninjas. There could have been ways to counter it or the person had to be immobilised and the soul could have merely been absorbed as energy.

Since they were all low lvl ninjas, there isn't a real difference from sucking their soul or poking their hearts with a kunai/rod.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Phenomenal

Everyone has a plan 'till they get punched in the mouth.

...and characters have convictions and beliefs that they would fight and die for until Naruto incorrectly lobotomizes them...

[Phenomenal]

Originally Posted by james0246

...and characters have convictions and beliefs that they would fight and die for until Naruto incorrectly lobotomizes them...

With a Rasengan to the frame....

[ThoHell]

Good chapter, good chapter. Unexpected happy outcome with a tent of unhappiness. I hope something good happens to Konan....

[GusGus]

This arc was good while Naruto was out, but in the moment he appeared everything went down hill.

[Orga777]

Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear

The line between good and evil is blurred. Nagato may have wiped out innocent lives in destroying Hanzou's regime, but isn't Konoha guilty of the same misdeed? Nagato's parents, who weren't even ninjas, were murdered in front of him. The Rain country was left in shambles by the Fire Nation. If Nagato is evil, then so is Sarutobi.

Problem. The Konoha Ninja that killed Nagato's parents did not know they were not ninja and went "Oh shit!" afterwards. That was not intentional. All the murders Nagato (with his Pain persona) were pre-mediated.

And Rain just was in the middle of a war that it ended up getting dragged into. Oh, and shit happens in war. (A war Konoha didn't even start at that.)

Anyway, Nagato changing beliefs because of this is still dumb even if they some how pull it off well (yeah right). It would be like Shishio changning his mind in his fight with Kenshin in Rurouni Kenshin. Totally outrageous to think of.

But of course, without that persona to protect his weakness, maybe Nagato wasn't as strong in his beliefs... He made a god avatar that was defeated, and behind that avatar he is just... a simpering sod of a character..... The real cool villain was Pain. Nagato was just the controller of a persona. Like a role-player. I feel like I repeated myself... XD

[danin8r44]

I can't help but feel betrayed by this chapter. A dramatic arc was built up with real consequences of every action and a strong theme.

Then it turns around and says, "Oh no, we were just joking, none of that actually mattered. It is like it never happened just forget it. The theme and all they aren't important we just wanted to move the antagonist again and show Naruto's sudden leetness."

I guess it is my fault for thinking that an ongoing shonen action series can have either a deeper plot or heavier consequences than this.

[Ermes Marana]

Originally Posted by james0246

...and characters have convictions and beliefs that they would fight and die for until Naruto incorrectly lobotomizes them...

I disagree completely.

Nagato DID fight for his convictions.

Naruto beat him.

Nagato's plan basically meant he would need to be unbeatable. He was setting himself up as a god.

Naruto proved he wasn't unbeatable, thus showing him his plan wouldn't work.

Before Naruto won, nothing would have changed his mind. But afterward, it makes perfect sense to change his mind.


Having said that, resurrecting characters is a very dangerous thing to do as a writer, and has a good chance of making everything seem pointless. This is no exception. Everything about this arc has been good, including Nagato changing his mind, but the resurrecting ends it on a serious downer and to a large extent ruins the whole thing. Stupid, stupid writing.

[King Lycan]

Just read the chapter it was ok Beside the fact that everyone who died got revived..
Can't wait till Sasuke Goes to Konoha can't wait to see what kind of magical things we'll see

[naruske]

interesting chapter.
so madara kisame and zetsu are the only ones left?
crazy

I wonder Tsunade's condition, she's probably all wrinkly

glad to see Konan always had a good heart...i think

and sasuke's arrival will be interesting

[ThoHell]

Nagato... is the ultimate haxor. Dang too bad he's dead now and Konan is alone. Bitter sweet bitter sweet.

[Alchemist007]

Revive everyone no jutsu! Well I guess everyone but Jiraya T_T
lol @ Sasuke and co. chillin in da crib while everyone was thinking they'd arrive at Konoha any second.

[Wargumm1i]

I just cant help but wonder after reading this chapter, that how many chapters or arcs are there still out there... I mean Pain is gone he is dead and Naruto is very strong, Sasuke seems too be making his move now and going for Konoha and its pretty obvious that Naruto and Sasuke will settle things soon.

[Alchemist007]

And maybe do a 1-2 team up on Madara.

[Orga777]

Okay, I just read teh chapter and it was not as bad as it could have been... Still pretty bad though... But it didn't ruin the arc for me like I thought it would. It hurt the effectiveness of the arc BIG TIME, but after reading it, Pain and Nagato really were two different characters. Nagato's Pain was Yahiko really. Nagato was practically pretending to be Yahiko and follow Yahiko's dreams to the tee. Nagato I am not so sure was fully commited to said goals. Pain was. I can see it as a split personality brought on by the loss of Yahiko. Nagato lowered that pain of loss by pretending to act like he felt Yahiko would act. If you do look at it that way, Pain itself was still a great villain. Nagato was teh weak one.

Still not a fan of the Mass Ressurection bullshit at all. It hurt the drama of the arc, but still, this arc was too good to be labled a failure despite weak writing in the end.

Chapter Rating: 5/10
Arc Rating: 8/10

This arc could have been a perfect ten if there was no mass ressurection. Because of that ressurection, it could not live up to the first two arcs of Part 2 (Rescue Gaara and Grass Country. It may not reach the hidan and Kakuzu arc either... better than the others though.)

[Freya]

Hahaha Sasuke is all healed up right after everyone is revived. This should be interesting. Douchebag Danzo still out there somewhere.

[Phenomenal]

Originally Posted by Ermes Marana

I disagree completely.

Nagato DID fight for his convictions.

Naruto beat him.

Nagato's plan basically meant he would need to be unbeatable. He was setting himself up as a god.

Naruto proved he wasn't unbeatable, thus showing him his plan wouldn't work.

Before Naruto won, nothing would have changed his mind. But afterward, it makes perfect sense to change his mind.

Glad a few of us actually understand the story!!!!!

Real recognizes real and you're looking familiar!!^^

Nagato resurrected everyone that he had killed for a good reason people...He remembered what J-man did for him. Naruto developed and he is still staying strong to his words since Naruto part 1 it was a fitting end to Nagato child of prophecy, Good chapter.

[james0246]

Highs: the various fights between Pain and the many shinobi (yes, even the Konohamaru pseudo-fight); the destruction of village; Naruto's defeat of the various Pain bodies; and Naruto not having an answer to one of the world's most complex questions.

Lows: Hinata living (if you were going to resurrect everyone anyway, why couldn't you just kill her off to begin with); Minato's appearance; Naruto's answer to one of the world's most complex question's (yeah, we all know that the answer, what ever it would be, would suck, but this is even worse than the drivel I had previously imagined); Nagato's acceptance of Naruto's answer to one of the world's most complex questions (I guess this just shows how truly insane Nagato was...); Konan walking off into the sunset after accomplishing absolutely nothing as a character or a person...she is so pathetic that she makes Tenten look multi-layered and interesting; learning that both Naruto and Nagato were the "Chosen One"; and, of course, the pitiful mass resurrection in which everyone in the village that died was brought back to life...seemingly just so Kishimoto can have fodder to kill when fighting Sasuke and Madara.

So, all in all, some great early highs that plateau into a nice dramatic story with only a few hiccups (Minato specifically) until finally finishing with a great fizzle. Sadly enough, due to the great fizzle I can't help but grade the entire arc as 6/10. Such a great, if simple, beginning that ended in such an overly-dramatic and overly-emo moments that answered nothing. Hell, Nagato and Konan couldn't even give Naruto some much needed info concerning Madara. Truly pathetic.

After loving Naruto so much during this arc (until the end), its sad to say, but I hope Sasuke can give me a pick up considering how much I disliked the ending of this arc. Here's hoping he can come to Konoha and actually accomplish something, at least until he is also lobotomized (hopefully in a far more realistic and understandable scenario).