[Manga] Chapter 452 Discussion

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by Killer Bee

How do you know that? There are literally hundreds of Root shinobi that we know nothing about! And its important to keep in mind that even if they were stronger than Itachi, you wouldn't have heard about them because Root operates pretty much for Danzou's agenda. We didn't hear about Sai until Naruto came back to the village with Jiraya ... and according to Danzou Sai is the strongest of his generation. We're not even sure if he were including Naruto and Sasuke in that comparison.

It's simple: they didn't do anything while the village was in great danger, the village was almost destroyed many times. These are: the kyuubi attack, Uchiha revolting, Orochimaru invading and Pain destroying the village. Did they do anything meaningful to stop all that? No. The third hokage and Danzou did fear that Uchiha will start a civil war and then a great ninja war will start and many will die. It was Itachi who stopped all that and not anyone else. Your example is good to prove how much weaker these root guys are, Sai is nothing compared to Sasuke or Naruto, yet he was Danzou's best man of that age. We are talking about a guy (Itachi) who was on Madara's level, who had crushed Kakashi in a second, while we see Kakashi was almost nominated hokage by the top jounins of Konoha. If there is anyone so strong in root then he has betrayed Konoha by not helping in any of the situations that i mentioned, because Konoha exists only because Yondaime, Itachi, 3rd hokage, Jiraiya and Naruto were there to protect the village. Having someone in root anbu who is on the level of these guys but who did nothing to help Konoha survive would make the whole story a nonsense.

Originally Posted by Killer Bee

If Itachi was killed, he wouldn't talk about anything.

It was Itachi's plan to die, but if Danzou were to kill Sasuke he would have not only talked but made even worse things.

Originally Posted by Killer Bee

I'm not so sure about that. I believe that villages have missing-nin hunters for that. I don't think that Team Kakashi would have attacked Zabuza had Zabuza not attacked the bridge builder.

Kakashi wouldn't have attacked Zabuza because the genins who were with him were too weak, but he would have sent a message to hunter nins to tell where Zabuza is, so that they hunt him down. But when Kisame and Itachi enter Konoha we see that two konoha jounins attack them, despite Itachi wants them to get away they try to kill them. These are called criminals so every jounin level ninja would probably try to kill them because that's their duty. The big difference between these jounins and hunter ninja is that for the hunter ninjas it's their job to do so while the jounins do it either because that is the mission given to them or because of some random encounter.

Originally Posted by Killer Bee

I disagree. Jiraya didn't seem that bent on killing Itachi or Kisame. He seemed more intent on protecting his godson. In fact, he even allowed Sasuke to engage Itachi, which could have meant the end of Sasuke at that point. And before anyone brings up that Jiraya understood that Sasuke needed to act out his revenge, even Jiraya later admitted that it was bad judgement.

I was talking about average jounins of a village, Jiraiya is a special character. Asuma and Kurenai were so dumb that they couldn't even understand that they have absolutely no chance there, so are most of the average ninja in this manga. Jiraiya was always very independent of the village, he was loyal to the village but mostly acted on his own will. Notice how he didn't wear a konoha head protector. Sasuke's little fight with Itachi was a plot device to make Sasuke leave the village and go to Orochimaru, so it had to happen regardless of Jiraiya. And it had to happen while Naruto is watching, so that Naruto begins to understand Sasuke's problems, therefore Jiraiya had to be present because otherwise Itachi would have no excuse to tell Kisame why he didn't take Naruto with him. But in the end all this does not change the fact that Jiraiya did attack Itachi and Itachi had to use amaterasu to get away alive, and probably that was the point where Jiraiya did understand that he was lucky not being killed by Itachi.

Originally Posted by Killer Bee

I disagree to a point. The team that fights Sasuke will have to have Naruto on it ONLY because of story development, not because Sasuke is the only one who can beat Sasuke. Seems to me that Yamato was about to lay the smackdown on Sasuke when Team 7 first reunited with him, but as he stated he "refrained" from hurting Sasuke in front of Naruto and Sakura. And before everyone begins talking about how powerful Sasuke is, let's not forget that every time he's come up against a S-Class shinobi he's gotten his ass kicked. His fights with Killer Bee and Deidara were exactly displays of unparalleled might and skill. And we all know why Sasuke won against Itachi and Oro. So I'm thinking that any solid jounin who understands how to combat the Sharingan is capable of matching Sasuke. Chiyo made this clear IMO. MS is another thing entirely.

Deidara was insanely strong, Sasuke's luck was that all his jutsu were perfect to beat Deidara. However he never wanted to kill Deidara, that made things more difficult. The same with KillerBee, he had the task to capture him. In KillerBee's case Sasuke was very unlucky, every ability of killerbee nullified Sasuke's powers. Add to that Sasuke's arrogance, he had no plan against KillerBee, just jumped in without knowing his opponent. Yamato is an above the average jounin, however the level of Deidara, KillerBee and Sasuke is way above his, he would have no chance against those. And on top of all this the fight with killerbee had shown that Sasuke has leveled up after his fight with Itachi: even when all his skills are nullified by an opponent who is very lucky to have the skills against Sasuke still there is the MS that beats everything. The manga says "new power", Sasuke is now able to kill almost anyone. If Sasuke had MS back when he fought Orochimaru and Deidara he could have killed them instanly, the CS2 powerup that he had was nothing compared to the MS powerup.

[Killer Bee]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

It's simple: they didn't do anything while the village was in great danger, the village was almost destroyed many times. These are: the kyuubi attack, Uchiha revolting, Orochimaru invading and Pain destroying the village. Did they do anything meaningful to stop all that? No. The third hokage and Danzou did fear that Uchiha will start a civil war and then a great ninja war will start and many will die. It was Itachi who stopped all that and not anyone else. Your example is good to prove how much weaker these root guys are, Sai is nothing compared to Sasuke or Naruto, yet he was Danzou's best man of that age. We are talking about a guy (Itachi) who was on Madara's level, who had crushed Kakashi in a second, while we see Kakashi was almost nominated hokage by the top jounins of Konoha. If there is anyone so strong in root then he has betrayed Konoha by not helping in any of the situations that i mentioned, because Konoha exists only because Yondaime, Itachi, 3rd hokage, Jiraiya and Naruto were there to protect the village. Having someone in root anbu who is on the level of these guys but who did nothing to help Konoha survive would make the whole story a nonsense.

That's not true at all. Danzou and his Root soldiers didn't hide because they lacked "courage" or the necessary power to battle. They hid because Pain's attack was calculated. Danzou wanted all that to happen. He was even told by one of his Root shinobi that there would be no village left to rule, and he replied by predicting Tsunade's sacrifice to keep the majority of the villagers alive. He killed the frog because he didn't want Naruto to show and become a hero ... which led to the villagers and the jounin who are to vote on the Hokage situation hailing Naruto as the hero instead of Danzou, who probably intended on making his move once Pain was fully exhausted. Now Danzou has to be careful not to seem in conflict with Naruto and his compatriots.

That has nothing to do with power levels.

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

It was Itachi's plan to die, but if Danzou were to kill Sasuke he would have not only talked but made even worse things.

Well that doesn't mean that Danzou knew that Itachi planned to die. Which is why it's possible that Danzou had a hand in the illness that killed Itachi. My point simply was that if Danzou had successfully killed Itachi, well ... dead men tell no tales.

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

Kakashi wouldn't have attacked Zabuza because the genins who were with him were too weak, but he would have sent a message to hunter nins to tell where Zabuza is, so that they hunt him down. But when Kisame and Itachi enter Konoha we see that two konoha jounins attack them, despite Itachi wants them to get away they try to kill them. These are called criminals so every jounin level ninja would probably try to kill them because that's their duty. The big difference between these jounins and hunter ninja is that for the hunter ninjas it's their job to do so while the jounins do it either because that is the mission given to them or because of some random encounter.

If it were true that Kakashi avoided attacking Zabuza because of the weak gennin he was with, then Team Kakashi would have used evasive maneuvers to escaped Zabuza instead of fighting him head on. I don't know that its the duty of all jounin to hunt down missing-nin. I'm inclined to disagree with that. When Kisame and Itachi showed up in Konoha, it was a TOTALLY different situation than when Team Kakashi bumped into Zabuza. Two S-class members of Akatsuki were actually in the village. That's called an invasion. So of course the jounin acted immediately. Its hardly the same thing.

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

I was talking about average jounins of a village, Jiraiya is a special character. Asuma and Kurenai were so dumb that they couldn't even understand that they have absolutely no chance there, so are most of the average ninja in this manga.

Some could argue that Shikamaru is an average ninja. He certainly isn't powerful. Yet he defeated the Akatsuki member that killed his teacher. Some might argue that Naruto was an underachiever. He certainly wasn't as powerful as Neji when he defeated him. Still, he did defeat Neji. Just because some of the characters aren't constantly highlighted as the most "badass ever" doesn't mean that they don't have their strengths. Are you forgetting that Konohamaru took out a Pain body?

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

Jiraiya was always very independent of the village, he was loyal to the village but mostly acted on his own will. Notice how he didn't wear a konoha head protector.

He was ALWAYS a part fo Konoha. That's where his loyalty lied. That's where his teacher was, and that's where he grew up and received the training that made him into one of the great Sannin. Just because he didn't stay in the village all the time doesn't mean that he didn't love it. He threatened to kill Tsunade if she healed Oro because that would be seen as an act of treason against Konoha as Oro would have surely attacked it again. He's as much a part of the village as anyone. Hell ... Tsunade had been away from Konoha longer than Jiraya and she's the 5th Hokage now. When they found her she wasn't wearing a head plate either. Does that mean she wasn't a patriot of Konoha?

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

Sasuke's little fight with Itachi was a plot device to make Sasuke leave the village and go to Orochimaru, so it had to happen regardless of Jiraiya. And it had to happen while Naruto is watching, so that Naruto begins to understand Sasuke's problems, therefore Jiraiya had to be present because otherwise Itachi would have no excuse to tell Kisame why he didn't take Naruto with him. But in the end all this does not change the fact that Jiraiya did attack Itachi and Itachi had to use amaterasu to get away alive, and probably that was the point where Jiraiya did understand that he was lucky not being killed by Itachi.

That wasn't the catalyst for Sasuke to leave the village. Sure it was a part of it, but it was Naruto's rapid and sudden improvement, which was evident in their fight, that made Sasuke realize that he wasn't making enough progress. That's what made Sasuke so open to the Sound Four's invitation.

I don't doubt that Jiraya could have been taken out, but if you remember correctly Itachi said that Jiraya could have killed both he and Kisame. So go figure.

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

Deidara was insanely strong, Sasuke's luck was that all his jutsu were perfect to beat Deidara. However he never wanted to kill Deidara, that made things more difficult.

Deidara was not insanely strong. He was S-class which means in comparison to most other ninja we've seen(and you made a point earlier to mention that most other ninja are basically dumb and weak - I'm paraphrasing) but he wasn't that special in comparison to other S-class shinobi we've seen. Naruto almost killed his ass before he even had a proper FRS or Sage mode with Kakashi's help.

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

The same with KillerBee, he had the task to capture him. In KillerBee's case Sasuke was very unlucky, every ability of killerbee nullified Sasuke's powers. Add to that Sasuke's arrogance, he had no plan against KillerBee, just jumped in without knowing his opponent.

Sasuke was killed in that fight. He may not have died but if it were not for his ally, he would be dead. Sasuke didn't fight Killer Bee by himself either. All of Team Hawk was in that fight and they were all getting stomped the fcuk out before the almighty hax mangekyo sharingan made an appearance. With or without a plan, Sasuke by himself wouldn't have last 60 seconds were it not for Karin.

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

Yamato is an above the average jounin, however the level of Deidara, KillerBee and Sasuke is way above his, he would have no chance against those.

I'm not so sure about that. Yamato seemed pretty confident that he could put a beating on Sasuke when they finally ran into him at Oro's hidden base. As I mentioned earlier, Yamato explained that he had held back against Sasuke so not to upset Naruto and Sakura. I don't think you've ever seen Yamato in serious action to judge accurately whether Sasuke is stronger than him. The same goes for Gai sensei. Itachi states that Kisame shouldn't underestimate Gai because he is powerful enough to defeat him. Gai is said to be stronger than Kakashi. He beat the Kisame clone by himself, while it took both Naruto and Kakashi to defeat the Itachi clone. The way people perceive power in this manga often seems based on who gets the most face time. Gai, when opening 5 gates, is said to be at Kage level. Gai can maintain that state for much longer than Lee. Yet, he's not perceived to be at Sasuke's level.

Doesn't make much sense.

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

And on top of all this the fight with killerbee had shown that Sasuke has leveled up after his fight with Itachi: even when all his skills are nullified by an opponent who is very lucky to have the skills against Sasuke still there is the MS that beats everything. The manga says "new power", Sasuke is now able to kill almost anyone. If Sasuke had MS back when he fought Orochimaru and Deidara he could have killed them instanly, the CS2 powerup that he had was nothing compared to the MS powerup.

This is very debatable.

First and again, Sasuke did not fight Killer Bee alone. Had he fought alone he would have died. That's not an opinion. Its a fact. Karin save Sasuke who was certainly going to die.

Second, the MS doesn't beat everything. If that was true then Madara would have beaten the first Hokage. He didn't ... because the MS does NOT beat everything. Granted Amaterasu is a VERY formidable weapon, but its one of the only MS abilities that Sasuke has displayed. I've had long debates on this board whether amaterasu and susanoo are even MS abilities. No one to date has shown where its says that every MS user can use those techniques, which means that Sasuke would have to acquire those abilities. It was never shown that Itachi gave Sasuke all of his techniques.

And with all that said, even if amaterasu was some disintergration ray, if Sasuke misses with it, can he use it again to save his ass? As it is, he's already going blind from using it ... and he has missed before.

[ChojinLocke]

^^

1. Amaterasu indeed beats everything until proven otherwise. To be more specific it is an S class ninjutsu activated on sight and burns fire itself while the effect of the fire lasts for 7 freaking days and nights..go figure). And it burned the 8 tails and since Madara was using the 9 tails it is very probable that it can burn the nine tails too. Madara was fighting together with Kyubi and the first was fighting with a couple of other tailed beasts too (until proven otherwise) so your argument is a bit weak since we dont know the exact circumstances of the fight which might disprove a lot of current surmises.

2. Sasuke would have demolished mr Yamato if he wasnt occupied suppresing the nine tails, beating up the entire team 7 and stabbing Yamato as well..might as well have killed him then. That's a fact by the way.

3. Sasuke would have easily beaten the 8 tails if he knew the Amaterasu jutsu before the fight. As it happens the whole fight was a plot device to get the new power and the plot moving towards Danzou movements. That is also a fact.

4. Itachi would have destroyed poor Jiraya back on the day if he had activated the MS while he was staring at him. Since we all know he didnt like conflict he made an excuse not to capture Naruto (he could have captured him many times given the opportunities, just like he would have killed Sasuke too if he wanted) by saying that poor Jiraya would have killed both of them. Kisame had no idea of Jiraya's abilities (he only knew he was one of the legendary sannin) so he could easily believe such a claim. And finally that is a fact as well. By the way it is also a fact that Itachi is the only guy in the show who was never shown to lose a fight (since he let Sasuke kill him).

[Haak]

Originally Posted by ChojinLocke

^^
3. Sasuke would have easily beaten the 8 tails if he knew the Amaterasu jutsu before the fight. As it happens the whole fight was a plot device to get the new power and the plot moving towards Danzou movements. That is also a fact.

Hey it can't be a plot device then. At least say it's a good plot device. -_-'

[AuroraFlash]

Originally Posted by ChojinLocke

4. Itachi would have destroyed poor Jiraya back on the day if he had activated the MS while he was staring at him. Since we all know he didnt like conflict he made an excuse not to capture Naruto (he could have captured him many times given the opportunities, just like he would have killed Sasuke too if he wanted) by saying that poor Jiraya would have killed both of them. Kisame had no idea of Jiraya's abilities (he only knew he was one of the legendary sannin) so he could easily believe such a claim. And finally that is a fact as well. By the way it is also a fact that Itachi is the only guy in the show who was never shown to lose a fight (since he let Sasuke kill him).

Sounds a little too fanboyish for me. First of all, Itachi was known as the killer of the whole Uchiha clan. No matter what the Sannin were good for, one Uchiha himself was fearsome (as told by Chio and so on), but Itachi was known as the killer of the whole clan and it was unknown that Madara was with him. Itachi killed the whole Uchiha clan, that was the measuring stick to Jiraiya and yet Kisame said they could fight on par.

It's a good idea that Itachi denied that because he didn't want to fight Jiraiya, but I think a lot more comments and skills have been shown that actually point out well that Jiraiya was nothing Itachi could kill easily. Sorry, but from my point of view, we can never tell who would have won.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Killer Bee

That has nothing to do with power levels.

Well, in the broader sense fo things, it does have to do with power levels. Specifically, Danzou cannot confront monsters such as Itachi or Pain/Nagato, hell even Tsunade (which seems to be the reason Jiraiya then Tsunade were chosen over Danzou originally). Arguably, Danzou only became Hokage because the next best choice, Kakashi, was hardly a choice at all.

Originally Posted by Killer Bee

Well that doesn't mean that Danzou knew that Itachi planned to die. Which is why it's possible that Danzou had a hand in the illness that killed Itachi.

It sems more likely that Orochimaru or Madara or even the MS may have had a hand in Itachi's illness, or at least they seem like more likely targets than Danzou.

Originally Posted by Killer Bee

Some could argue that Shikamaru is an average ninja.

I don't think anyone has ever labeled Shiki-kun as being average...especially not Temari . (That one was for DeDe...)

Originally Posted by Killer Bee

Are you forgetting that Konohamaru took out a Pain body?

Konohamaru did not take out a Pain body, he merely pushed one over.

Originally Posted by Killer Bee

That wasn't the catalyst for Sasuke to leave the village. Sure it was a part of it, but it was Naruto's rapid and sudden improvement, which was evident in their fight, that made Sasuke realize that he wasn't making enough progress. That's what made Sasuke so open to the Sound Four's invitation.

No, the catalyst was Itachi. Naruto's growth was merely an indicator to Sasuke of his own failure to measure up to Itachi.

Originally Posted by Killer Bee

Deidara was not insanely strong. He was S-class which means in comparison to most other ninja we've seen(and you made a point earlier to mention that most other ninja are basically dumb and weak - I'm paraphrasing) but he wasn't that special in comparison to other S-class shinobi we've seen. Naruto almost killed his ass before he even had a proper FRS or Sage mode with Kakashi's help.

Naruto and Kakashi threw attacks at a fleeing figure who wasn't even trying to defend himself nor fight. So, I wouldn't be using this "fight" as evidence of anything...

Originally Posted by Killer Bee

Sasuke was killed in that fight. He may not have died but if it were not for his ally, he would be dead. Sasuke didn't fight Killer Bee by himself either. All of Team Hawk was in that fight and they were all getting stomped the fcuk out before the almighty hax mangekyo sharingan made an appearance. With or without a plan, Sasuke by himself wouldn't have last 60 seconds were it not for Karin.

We can't really say that. Specifically, if Sasuke had taken the time to do his research, as any compotent shinobi should do (Shikimaru proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that a weaker shinobi can defeat a stronger shinobi, as so long as info is obtained and a strategy is created), then the outcome could have been completely different (well the outcome would have always been the same (Sasuke capturing the "fake" Kirabi, but the process could have been different). That being said, I don't really like discussing "What Ifs...", and I do agree that the way the Sasuke fought led to his defeat several times in the fight.

Originally Posted by Killer Bee

The same goes for Gai sensei. Itachi states that Kisame shouldn't underestimate Gai because he is powerful enough to defeat him. Gai is said to be stronger than Kakashi. He beat the Kisame clone by himself, while it took both Naruto and Kakashi to defeat the Itachi clone. The way people perceive power in this manga often seems based on who gets the most face time. Gai, when opening 5 gates, is said to be at Kage level. Gai can maintain that state for much longer than Lee. Yet, he's not perceived to be at Sasuke's level.

You have a lot of info here that is not actual fact. Itachi never claimed that Gai could defeat Kisame, rather he claimed the overall fight could turn out bad since more Shinobi were coming. Gai has never been said to be more powerful than Kakashi (they are generally always held equal). And, the Itachi-clone fought completely different from the Kisame-clone, so saying Gai beating Kisame-clone makes him greater than Kakashi/Naruto beating the Itachi-clone, doesn't make much sense. And, Gai opening 5-gates has never been said to be "Kage Level" (rather it was opening all gates that could turn someone Kage Level).

Originally Posted by Killer Bee

Second, the MS doesn't beat everything.

The MS beats most things. Not everything, but most things. Like Kirabi, for instance. This has always been true, and will always be true.

Originally Posted by Killer Bee

And with all that said, even if amaterasu was some disintergration ray, if Sasuke misses with it, can he use it again to save his ass? As it is, he's already going blind from using it ... and he has missed before.

Sasuke has never really missed with the Amaterasu, rather Kishimoto has made it so that he doesn't kill with the Amaterasu (i.e. Madara can defeat or dispell the technique, and Kirabi formed a "meat shield" out of his own bijuu).

[Sasuke_Bateman]

I really like the new character Omoi, he seems very talented. I didn't think I would him being associated with that filth who almost killed my beloved Sasukayyy but my taste for good characters can't be denied


Looking forward to next week

Spoiler for Kage summit:

[james0246]

^I didn't know that CBS covers the Kage Summit....

[Sasuke_Bateman]

Originally Posted by james0246

^I didn't know that CBS covers the Kage Summit....

That's zetsu!!!!

[Phenomenal]

Originally Posted by james0246

Sasuke has never really missed with the Amaterasu, rather Kishimoto has made it so that he doesn't kill with the Amaterasu (i.e. Madara can defeat or dispell the technique, and Kirabi formed a "meat shield" out of his own bijuu).

Saskue used a "replacement technique [Orochimaru's]"...To evade Amaterasu.

Originally Posted by Sasuke_Bateman

Looking forward to next week

Spoiler for Kage summit:

Bwhahwhahwha...

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by Killer Bee

That's not true at all. Danzou and his Root soldiers didn't hide because they lacked "courage" or the necessary power to battle. They hid because Pain's attack was calculated. Danzou wanted all that to happen. He was even told by one of his Root shinobi that there would be no village left to rule, and he replied by predicting Tsunade's sacrifice to keep the majority of the villagers alive. He killed the frog because he didn't want Naruto to show and become a hero ... which led to the villagers and the jounin who are to vote on the Hokage situation hailing Naruto as the hero instead of Danzou, who probably intended on making his move once Pain was fully exhausted. Now Danzou has to be careful not to seem in conflict with Naruto and his compatriots.

What "courage" has to do with all this? We are talking about having the strength, if someone is weak then he will die regardless of courage or not.
How could Danzou calculate that:
- Yondaime will stop the 9 tails and Madara from destroying the village, nobody was able not even the 3rd hokage
- Itachi will be able to single handedly kill the strongest clan of Konoha
- The old 3rd hokage being able to defeat Orochi and make him run away
- Naruto stopping the rinnegan, and Yondaime helping Naruto to regain control over the demon, etc.
This is nonsense, such things cannot be calculated. If the root didn't defend Konoha that simply means they didn't have the necessary power to do so. Root anbu will be used as cannon fodder ninja.

Originally Posted by Killer Bee

That has nothing to do with power levels.

In shonen manga everything is about power levels, powerups and becoming stronger. That is why Shikamaru's father tells to his son that the best teamwork is not to get into Naruto's way because Naruto has surpassed them so much that they would be just another trouble for Naruto.

Originally Posted by Killer Bee

If it were true that Kakashi avoided attacking Zabuza because of the weak gennin he was with, then Team Kakashi would have used evasive maneuvers to escaped Zabuza instead of fighting him head on. I don't know that its the duty of all jounin to hunt down missing-nin. I'm inclined to disagree with that. When Kisame and Itachi showed up in Konoha, it was a TOTALLY different situation than when Team Kakashi bumped into Zabuza. Two S-class members of Akatsuki were actually in the village. That's called an invasion. So of course the jounin acted immediately. Its hardly the same thing.

Kakashi did think about ending the mission, but in the end they decided to risk their life instead of letting Zabuza kill the bridge builder guy. Zabuza didn't give them a chance, but if they had a chance than Kakashi would have called for help of other jounins.
Walking around in Konoha is not called an invasion, it's called spying or something like that. So they had the option to tell Itachi to run away and don't return ever, but instead of that they wanted to kill them. I don't know what's your argument here, it's a fact that both Jiraiya and Kakashi/Asuma/Kurenai call these guys S-class criminals that have to be killed or captured.

Originally Posted by Killer Bee

Some could argue that Shikamaru is an average ninja. He certainly isn't powerful. Yet he defeated the Akatsuki member that killed his teacher. Some might argue that Naruto was an underachiever. He certainly wasn't as powerful as Neji when he defeated him. Still, he did defeat Neji. Just because some of the characters aren't constantly highlighted as the most "badass ever" doesn't mean that they don't have their strengths.

Guys like Shikamaru or Neji are all the strongest of the ninja world, but when compared to Naruto, Sasuke and top akatsukians they are weak. Just look at how Kakashi and a dozen other konoha ninja were used as a measuring stick, just 2 pains have crushed them.

Originally Posted by Killer Bee

Are you forgetting that Konohamaru took out a Pain body?

You should read the chapter again, Pain was hit by Konohamaru's rather small rasengan, but we don't know the outcome. Kishi never wanted a fight because konohamaru would have lost easily, such an interrupted fight was used to show Konohamaru's growth as a ninja, to show Naruto's influcence on him so that we know he will become a great ninja.

Originally Posted by Killer Bee

He was ALWAYS a part fo Konoha. That's where his loyalty lied. That's where his teacher was, and that's where he grew up and received the training that made him into one of the great Sannin. Just because he didn't stay in the village all the time doesn't mean that he didn't love it. He threatened to kill Tsunade if she healed Oro because that would be seen as an act of treason against Konoha as Oro would have surely attacked it again. He's as much a part of the village as anyone. Hell ... Tsunade had been away from Konoha longer than Jiraya and she's the 5th Hokage now. When they found her she wasn't wearing a head plate either. Does that mean she wasn't a patriot of Konoha?

I did say exactly the same about Jiraiya: he was always loyal to konoha. However that does not mean that he will follow orders mindlessly, he never did that. He was always on his own path, going around in the world. Just check out Danzou's words in the recent chapter: he says that Jiraiya caused all this by teaching the rinnegan guy how to fight. By Danzou's standards this would be treason and he would want to throw Jiraiya in jail for this, but the 3rd hokage had different ideas. I was trying to tell you that there's a fundamental difference between average ninja and Jiraiya: average ninja just follow orders, they don't ask questions about morality or truth. For example: if Jiraiya was told to kill some ninja who had already surrendered he would not do that, but an average ninja would most likely follow the order. If a ninja like Sai is given the order to give some military secret to Orochimaru he simply does it, he will not ask Danzou if doing that will risk the life of many konoha ninja. On the other hand if Jiraiya is given orders that are against the "will of fire" he would instead rebel against Danzou because he is loyal to the village.

Originally Posted by Killer Bee

That wasn't the catalyst for Sasuke to leave the village. Sure it was a part of it, but it was Naruto's rapid and sudden improvement, which was evident in their fight, that made Sasuke realize that he wasn't making enough progress. That's what made Sasuke so open to the Sound Four's invitation.

Orochimaru did say that Naruto was changing Sasuke, Sasuke was slowly forgetting his revenge obsession. That's why Orochimaru invaded Konoha, to take away Sasuke. But he failed and Naruto became Sasuke's best friend. Itachi mindraping Sasuke has reversed all the good effect that Naruto had on Sasuke.

Originally Posted by Killer Bee

I don't doubt that Jiraya could have been taken out, but if you remember correctly Itachi said that Jiraya could have killed both he and Kisame. So go figure.

You should think about Itachi as a good guy already, then just think what would you do in his place. He wanted to avoid fighting but at the same time Kisame was watching him so he had to act like an evil guy.

Originally Posted by Killer Bee

Deidara was not insanely strong. He was S-class which means in comparison to most other ninja we've seen(and you made a point earlier to mention that most other ninja are basically dumb and weak - I'm paraphrasing) but he wasn't that special in comparison to other S-class shinobi we've seen. Naruto almost killed his ass before he even had a proper FRS or Sage mode with Kakashi's help.

Naruto was nowhere near killing him, it was Deidara who almost killed everybody with an exploding clone, Kakashi had to save the day using MS. At that point Deidara had already lost both of his hands, yet he almost killed Kakashi's and Gai's team. Before all that Deidara had been sealing 1 tailed for 3 days, and before that he captured the kazekage and almost destroyed the sand village. He was fighting with Gaara over the village, and there was nobody who could do anything, Deidara was a one man army who could have destroyed the sand or konoha if he wanted to. And we were thinking that Deidara is damn strong, but it was not all: against Sasuke he did show even more insane jutsu.

Originally Posted by Killer Bee

Sasuke was killed in that fight. He may not have died but if it were not for his ally, he would be dead. Sasuke didn't fight Killer Bee by himself either. All of Team Hawk was in that fight and they were all getting stomped the fcuk out before the almighty hax mangekyo sharingan made an appearance. With or without a plan, Sasuke by himself wouldn't have last 60 seconds were it not for Karin.

True that Sasuke died twice there, both times magically saved by his team. But when he decided to use the MS he won instantly. The fight was meant to show that Sasuke has become much stronger after Itachi gave him the MS. It was meant to hype up Sasuke before he goes against Konoha and Naruto.

Originally Posted by Killer Bee

I'm not so sure about that. Yamato seemed pretty confident that he could put a beating on Sasuke when they finally ran into him at Oro's hidden base.

Do you really think that Yamato or other jounins, even Kakashi or Gai have a chance against Sasuke? That wouldn't make sense, the story is about Sasuke and Naruto now, both have been hyped up by beating enemies that are well above the level of Yamato and Kakashi.

Originally Posted by Killer Bee

Second, the MS doesn't beat everything.

Obviously, but to fight such a power you must be at a very high level, above the level of Kakashi and all other konoha ninja. In a 1on1 fight Sasuke with his MS is almost unbeateable. However Sasuke beating Konoha alone with his team does not make sense, so we see Sasuke's arrogance again when he plans to attack Konoha by himself. What i'm telling is that right now there's noone in Konoha who is strong enough, only Naruto. I really don't understand how can you assume that there's someone on Naruto's level in Konoha who was hiding for the entire time.

[Trafalgar Law]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

The same with KillerBee, he had the task to capture him. In KillerBee's case Sasuke was very unlucky, every ability of killerbee nullified Sasuke's powers. Add to that Sasuke's arrogance, he had no plan against KillerBee, just jumped in without knowing his opponent. Yamato is an above the average jounin, however the level of Deidara, KillerBee and Sasuke is way above his, he would have no chance against those. And on top of all this the fight with killerbee had shown that Sasuke has leveled up after his fight with Itachi: even when all his skills are nullified by an opponent who is very lucky to have the skills against Sasuke still there is the MS that beats everything. The manga says "new power", Sasuke is now able to kill almost anyone. If Sasuke had MS back when he fought Orochimaru and Deidara he could have killed them instanly, the CS2 powerup that he had was nothing compared to the MS powerup.

Sauke stated himself that their only chance to capture Killerbee alive was all of them going all out, but I think not even that wouldn't have been enough.
Yamato is not an everage ninja, he has Mokuton which is not easy to rate.
MS does not beat evrything, what Sasuke burned with Amaterasu wasn't even Killerbee, who got out of the fight unharmed.

Originally Posted by Killer Bee

If it were true that Kakashi avoided attacking Zabuza because of the weak gennin he was with, then Team Kakashi would have used evasive maneuvers to escaped Zabuza instead of fighting him head on. I don't know that its the duty of all jounin to hunt down missing-nin. I'm inclined to disagree with that. When Kisame and Itachi showed up in Konoha, it was a TOTALLY different situation than when Team Kakashi bumped into Zabuza. Two S-class members of Akatsuki were actually in the village. That's called an invasion. So of course the jounin acted immediately. Its hardly the same thing.

They couldn't do maeuvers because their duty was to protect the bridge guy. It is the duty of any Shinobi to kill any missing-nin they meet, except when they are to strong for them.

Deidara was not insanely strong. He was S-class which means in comparison to most other ninja we've seen(and you made a point earlier to mention that most other ninja are basically dumb and weak - I'm paraphrasing) but he wasn't that special in comparison to other S-class shinobi we've seen. Naruto almost killed his ass before he even had a proper FRS or Sage mode with Kakashi's help.

Pain himself stated that Deidara was something special and that it would be a shame to lose him. And yeah, Naruto was able to punch Deidara in the face - after Kakashi and Gaara cut both his arms off. I mean, yeah, it's so difficult to beat up a cripple!

[james0246]

@Ero-Senn1n: Hmm, I don't think we can really say that Orochimaru invaded Konoha for Sasuke. He infiltrated the exams for Sasuke, sure, but the actual invasion of Konoha was a separate plan of action.

@Phenomenal: Can we really say that Sasuke evaded Amaterasu? He was still hit, and his body did burn, but because he had a White Snake technique (did it every have a name?), he was able to regurgitate a new body from his mouth.

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by Killer Bee

Deidara was not insanely strong. He was S-class which means in comparison to most other ninja we've seen(and you made a point earlier to mention that most other ninja are basically dumb and weak - I'm paraphrasing) but he wasn't that special in comparison to other S-class shinobi we've seen. Naruto almost killed his ass before he even had a proper FRS or Sage mode with Kakashi's help.

I think you completely forgot what happened during this fight, Naruto barely managed one or two punch on Deidara and only because Kakashi had cut off his arm. Naruto then beat the crap off a clone and would have been killed again if it wasn't for Kakashi's Kamui. All that when Deidara had almost no weapon, no arms and very outnumbered.

I'm not so sure about that. Yamato seemed pretty confident that he could put a beating on Sasuke when they finally ran into him at Oro's hidden base. As I mentioned earlier, Yamato explained that he had held back against Sasuke so not to upset Naruto and Sakura. I don't think you've ever seen Yamato in serious action to judge accurately whether Sasuke is stronger than him. The same goes for Gai sensei. Itachi states that Kisame shouldn't underestimate Gai because he is powerful enough to defeat him. Gai is said to be stronger than Kakashi. He beat the Kisame clone by himself, while it took both Naruto and Kakashi to defeat the Itachi clone. The way people perceive power in this manga often seems based on who gets the most face time. Gai, when opening 5 gates, is said to be at Kage level. Gai can maintain that state for much longer than Lee. Yet, he's not perceived to be at Sasuke's level.

Yamato wasn't going all out when Sasuke crushed him but then again Sasuke wasn't either. We have seen Yamato trying to attack Kakuzu, and failling, I very much doubt he was also holding back not to upset his team. Yamato is good, probably almost as good as Kakashi, but he is simply not in the league of of the very good ninja. That includes most of Akatsuki, KillerBee, Naruto, Sasuke, etc.
Incidentaly Itachi never said Gai was strong enough to defeat Kisame, it wasn't said either that Gai was stronger than Kakashi and opening 5 Gates isn't said to be at Kage level so I'm afraid you also imagined all that.

Ninja like Kakashi, Gai or Yamato are very powerful, even the strongest ninja can't take them lightly because it would be very dangerous for them to do so. But without backup or without very good matchup for them they would end up beaten with mid-difficulty.

I've had long debates on this board whether amaterasu and susanoo are even MS abilities. No one to date has shown where its says that every MS user can use those techniques, which means that Sasuke would have to acquire those abilities. It was never shown that Itachi gave Sasuke all of his techniques.

There is nothing to debate about it, the answers were given in the third Databook : not all MS user had all those abilities but those with enough talent did and Itachi didn't give to Sasuke those abilities, he only sealed one Amaterasu attack into his eye in order to kill Madara.

Originally Posted by Phenomenal

Saskue used a "replacement technique [Orochimaru's]"...To evade Amaterasu.

No he used Orochimaru's jutsu to make a "new" body after he was hit precisely because he couldn't evade Amaterasu.
That said if you can't evade a jutsu then just make your opponent strikes the wrong one, Kage Bunshin is the perfect jutsu for that.

[ChojinLocke]

Originally Posted by AuroraFlash

Sounds a little too fanboyish for me. First of all, Itachi was known as the killer of the whole Uchiha clan. No matter what the Sannin were good for, one Uchiha himself was fearsome (as told by Chio and so on), but Itachi was known as the killer of the whole clan and it was unknown that Madara was with him. Itachi killed the whole Uchiha clan, that was the measuring stick to Jiraiya and yet Kisame said they could fight on par.

It's a good idea that Itachi denied that because he didn't want to fight Jiraiya, but I think a lot more comments and skills have been shown that actually point out well that Jiraiya was nothing Itachi could kill easily. Sorry, but from my point of view, we can never tell who would have won.

I was not referring to Itachi's credential as killer of the Uchiha clan, or the fact that he is one of the greatest geniuses the otherwise already genius Uchihas produced. If you want to talk about simple logic then here it is : Jiraya and Orochimaru were around the same power level (you could argue for one being stronger or the other but fact is both failed to kill Hanzo combined with Tsunade). Yet Itachi effortlessly owned Orochimaru 2 times. So what exactly makes you think Jiraya had any chance in the world against someone of probably around Pain's level (When we know what happened to poor Jiraya when he faced Pain's level..), trained from Madara himself, with jutsus like Susanoo, Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi (All uber haxed more or less)? At least I hope you concede the fact that Itachi + Kisame would play with Jiraya not defeat him..

Itachi was a spy inside Akatsuki. He had no reason to harm Konoha or steer tension. That is the only thing that saved Jiraya from being slaughtered outright. That and the fact that Kisame respected Itachi's opinion a lot because he regarded Itachi as stronger than him. Anyways this topic is exhausted.

[naruske]

So I just read the Sasuke/Madara convo over again. so did Sasuke lose his cursed seal mark?

[james0246]

Originally Posted by naruske

So I just read the Sasuke/Madara convo over again. so did Sasuke lose his cursed seal mark?

Yes. Sasuke's curse seal is gone (when Orochimaru left Sasuke's body, he took the curse seal with him, and then Itachi sealed both away with Susanoo).

[Alchemist007]

Originally Posted by james0246

Can we really say that Sasuke evaded Amaterasu? He was still hit, and his body did burn, but because he had a White Snake technique (did it every have a name?), he was able to regurgitate a new body from his mouth.

Is that what it was? I thought it was just the general substitute technique but he was semi-specific about it.

[Phenomenal]

Originally Posted by james0246

@Phenomenal: Can we really say that Sasuke evaded Amaterasu? He was still hit, and his body did burn, but because he had a White Snake technique (did it every have a name?), he was able to regurgitate a new body from his mouth.

Well, lets look at what Itachi says..

Naruto 390: Page 16..

Itachi: "The replacement you used to dodge my Amaterasu was a move straight from Orochimaru's repertoire.
Although it's extremely difficult to detect, it also consumes a massive amount of chakra."

Originally Posted by Hunter

No he used Orochimaru's jutsu to make a "new" body after he was hit precisely because he couldn't evade Amaterasu.
That said if you can't evade a jutsu then just make your opponent strikes the wrong one, Kage Bunshin is the perfect jutsu for that.

Those techniques are an evasion, "replacement technique" is just like a Kage Bunshin....It fools the opponent, allowing the user to escape.

[Hanzoman]

Originally Posted by Killer Bee

Naruto supposedly now has to go on an undefeated ass-kicking streak because of the way he beat Pain. That's stupid. Doing that leaves little room for growth or drama in the story. And as someone pointed out, even Konohamaru took out one of Pain's bodies. Pain was only formidable because NO ONE understood that they were only fighting pawns and not the king.

That, and naruto was ridiculously prepared to face this particular opponent. He had clones in the other realm, appropriate information while fighting the bodies, and not to mention the mysterious “coincidences”, like appearing right when peins most powerful body is fatigued. People are definitely getting carried away.

Originally Posted by Killer Bee

I think that so many Naruto fans have felt so dejected for so long because of Naruto's lack of growth in comparison to Sasuke that now this is supposed to be the start of his reign of power.

If that happens, a lot of people won't even be bothered with it anymore. I personally like the way Yu Yu Hakusho was done. The main character was a beast, but that didn't stop his comrades from also improving exponentially along with him. And in the end, most of his group were S-Class, and many of his adversaries were already at that level. That left room for growth and further adventure had they ever decided to continue the story at a later time ala DBGT.

I guess we can expect a lot of bitching and moaning from people who expect the Uzumaki Express to just run over anyone who gets in his way. This isn't much different than when people were practically crying over the fact that Konohamaru managed to perform the rasengan ... as if it were some insult to Naruto, Yondaime and the rasengan.

I agree 100%. People were complaining as if it were somehow inconceivable for someone like Konohamaru to learn the rasengan as if he was any worse than naruto at that age. As if they all forgot who his grandfather was, and that he had tremendous determination… I also remember someone being upset because the 8-tailed beast had the same chakra ball attack the four tailed fox used on Orochimaru… They actually said “that was supposed to be naruto’s move!” stuff like that makes me cringe sometimes. It was pretty annoying to those posts where people where bitching about naruto getting hit; one poster even stated “I just feel like stuff like that isn’t supposed to happen anymore”. I mean, are you serious?