Claymore Chapter 93

[Gangsta Spanksta]

Originally Posted by Cyclone

I remember the Dietrich issue too as well you standing with me on that one.

I asked you what it would take for the DoDs to be worse than the MiBs. You answered genocidial - fair enough, that would be worse. Now, I have to ask, do you think it's likely? We have no evidence that the DoDs have committed any atrocities what-so-ever, or even that they started the fight for that matter. The only thing we know is they allied with themselves with a powerful race of DoDs (and as I said earlier, in eastern mythology dragons are more often than not good guys)

The only reason that anyone would believe the MiBs are the good guys is because the story is from the perective of Clare, who is definitely a good person as is her immediate circle of aquaintances (ghosts, raki, father vincent, etc). In real life though, there are good people on both sides of a conflict/war - they just happen to be trying to kill each other because from their perspectives what they are doing is right. That's life. Surely you don't believe that all 16 year old enlisted privates in the German army during WWII were like Hitler?

In short, in order to continue to believe that the DoDs are the bad guys, due to the volume of wrong doings by the MiBs, you are almost forced to believe the DoDs are evil incarnate - genocidal maniacs on and insane quest to conquer and purge all life from the planet or something. Now, I ask you, do you think Yagi would ever give us such a one dimensional villian? Even Ophelia and the bandits had much more depth than that. Characters in Claymore act for personal reasons - and "I want to be evil" is typically not one of them.

At the moment I'm having a difficult time believing the DoD side is evil, so I believe anyone using this line of reasoning as a premise for further arguments is assuming a little more than is safe to assume. That's all.

I am assuming nothing though. XD I hardly recall how all this started. But thinking back, it was a discussion about recklessness, and I gave an example of how Miria's action of getting rid of the Org could be considered as reckless, because the org could be a necessary evil, the less or two evils, the only thing that was keeping the DoD plague from going out of control. Then someone asked how the Org could possibly be the lesser of two evils, and I gave one possibility which involved a Utilitarian approach taken by the org, one where it was willing to sacrifice everyone on the Island for the sake of humanity. It was the nature of the question; it didn't require me to prove anything; it only required me to provide speculation on the how.

I can't say if the DoD are the greater of two evils or not, but there is a 50/50 chance that they are evil, and a 33% chance that they are the greater evil. I don't get what the DoD being bad guys has to do with evil incarnate, unless you mean the greater of two evils, but even then they only have to be slightly worse to the org, or worse from the perspective of humans and Claymore, since the greater of two evils can depend on perspective. Claymore is a Manga based on a European Medieval world, which has a combination of western and eastern idea. I don't see how the concept of eastern dragons being good has to do with anything, since many Medieval manga use the concept of western dragons in them, so it certainly is not a given that Yagi would use a eastern concept in this case. Looking at the art, the dragons do look more western than eastern; they most certainly don't look like benevolent creatures to me, but I suppose you shouldn't judge a book by its cover. Still, they do look like monster, and there is certain thing about people allying themselves with monsters, making a deal with the devil so to speak, be it draconic or demonic, that makes both sides look evil. Then there is Rubel to consider. If the DoD are the good guys, then you have utilitarianism used by them instead of the org. It means that the other side is willing to sacrifice innocent people for their cause, the fabulous four, our half awakeneds to be exact. Rubel is trying to get them killed, instead of telling them something like there is a boat at the end of the island that can take you to safety, and you can live peacefully with our people. In fact, Rubel shows that the other side is willing to sacrifice and have experiments done on little girls as well. When Clare brought him the head of Teresa, did he not smirk, and accepted her request to be made a Claymore? Did he try to talk the young girl out of it, telling her that this is not what she wanted, that such an action could possibly ruin her life? So I have a hard time seeing the possibility that the DoD are good guys as you want them to be. My own view on the thing was that there probably weren't any good guys. The org is evil and so is the DoD. The only reason I like the idea of lesser of two evils, is that it makes things a little more interesting.

[Shiek927]

Originally Posted by MonsieurRosseau

*nomnomnom*

Also, why does everyone think Riful should be dead?

It's not because everyone hates or anything, it was going to be inevitable; something that was made especially clear with Isley died.

To me, Isley died, or rather, Yagi killed him off because he furfilled his purpose and could do nothing more for the story. To me, when a character has lost what makes them unique and/or can no longer contribute to the story, Yagi kills them off. Irene and Flora both gave Claire their signature techniques, so their really wasn't any reason to keep them around.

This may sound cruel, especially since theirs' much more to these characters then their powers, but we have to trust that Yagi knows what he's doing and again, what more did you expect or want Isley to do?

On topic, it's the same with Riful. She's lived for a very long time now and if she dies, she lives on in Raciella. Isley's death showed that the manga is going past the Abyssals now, their time is over. Riful has been on the chopping block ever since his death, it's got less to do with people just hating her, but more to do with it just being inevitable.

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The thing about your signature JB, is that your put the text directly below the picture and it's easy to miss it.

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I can't believe that a Awakening with such a weird Body, who is SO complex in Order to be most difficult to kill, is a "Offensive" Type...

I just don't believe it.

Well, let's settle this easily.

Somebody mind telling us whether or not the databooks say if Riful is Offensive or not?

I know they don't show her claymore symbol, neither for the males, but they made it clear what the Males all are(Offensive), no reason not the same for her.

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Thanks for the heads up on Gernot's translations.

Reading them, I get an even further impression that Renee is still alive.

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[sonotme_9FedriqSama]

Originally Posted by Shiek927

Thanks for the heads up on Gernot's translations.

Reading them, I get an even further impression that Renee is still alive.

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I say she' definately alive...

[Shiek927]

Originally Posted by sonotme_9FedriqSama

I say she' definately alive...

Some people seem to have the weird idea that she's already dead

Pretty silly if you ask me. Riful was just monologing.

[dweller of the deep]

Originally Posted by Shiek927

Some people seem to have the weird idea that she's already dead

Pretty silly if you ask me. Riful was just monologing.

Maybe Rennés purpose is fulfilled, so Yagi killed her off

[MisterJB]

Originally Posted by dweller of the deep

Maybe Rennés purpose is fulfilled, so Yagi killed her off

She needs to tell Clare or other of the Ghosts about Raki, first.

[MalakTawus]

Originally Posted by Gangsta Spanksta

I am assuming nothing though. XD I hardly recall how all this started. But thinking back, it was a discussion about recklessness, and I gave an example of how Miria's action of getting rid of the Org could be considered as reckless, because the org could be a necessary evil, the less or two evils, the only thing that was keeping the DoD plague from going out of control. Then someone asked how the Org could possibly be the lesser of two evils, and I gave one possibility which involved a Utilitarian approach taken by the org, one where it was willing to sacrifice everyone on the Island for the sake of humanity. It was the nature of the question; it didn't require me to prove anything; it only required me to provide speculation on the how.

I can't say if the DoD are the greater of two evils or not, but there is a 50/50 chance that they are evil, and a 33% chance that they are the greater evil. I don't get what the DoD being bad guys has to do with evil incarnate, unless you mean the greater of two evils, but even then they only have to be slightly worse to the org, or worse from the perspective of humans and Claymore, since the greater of two evils can depend on perspective. Claymore is a Manga based on a European Medieval world, which has a combination of western and eastern idea. I don't see how the concept of eastern dragons being good has to do with anything, since many Medieval manga use the concept of western dragons in them, so it certainly is not a given that Yagi would use a eastern concept in this case. Looking at the art, the dragons do look more western than eastern; they most certainly don't look like benevolent creatures to me, but I suppose you shouldn't judge a book by its cover. Still, they do look like monster, and there is certain thing about people allying themselves with monsters, making a deal with the devil so to speak, be it draconic or demonic, that makes both sides look evil. Then there is Rubel to consider. If the DoD are the good guys, then you have utilitarianism used by them instead of the org. It means that the other side is willing to sacrifice innocent people for their cause, the fabulous four, our half awakeneds to be exact. Rubel is trying to get them killed, instead of telling them something like there is a boat at the end of the island that can take you to safety, and you can live peacefully with our people. In fact, Rubel shows that the other side is willing to sacrifice and have experiments done on little girls as well. When Clare brought him the head of Teresa, did he not smirk, and accepted her request to be made a Claymore? Did he try to talk the young girl out of it, telling her that this is not what she wanted, that such an action could possibly ruin her life? So I have a hard time seeing the possibility that the DoD are good guys as you want them to be. My own view on the thing was that there probably weren't any good guys. The org is evil and so is the DoD. The only reason I like the idea of lesser of two evils, is that it makes things a little more interesting.

Agree 100%

[Goofus Maximus]

Originally Posted by Gangsta Spanksta

But they would move in own their own accord, if they seek Yoki. In fact, now that you mention that line, it sounds less like it is telepathy that is controlling them. I just think one of his greatest power, was ineffective against the ZACS. Yoki seeking arrows are pretty cool, unless you are facing the Ghost or the ZACS.

If I remember right, didn't Easley's guided arrows have eyeballs of their own? That would imply that they can seek their targets just because they can see where they're going, though Luciela does some plot exposition, explaining that he guides the arrows with his will.

The description of these ZACs specifically mentioning that they are intentionally blinded to youki, and only go by sense of smell. Kind of like Miata's "sixth sense".

Spoiler for "evidence from previous chapters:

There is some sort of telepathy involved, since they were explained as synching their minds.

Spoiler for "more evidence from previous chapters:

[irvinethearcher]

Originally Posted by Cyclone

I remember the Dietrich issue too as well you standing with me on that one.

I asked you what it would take for the DoDs to be worse than the MiBs. You answered genocidial - fair enough, that would be worse. Now, I have to ask, do you think it's likely? We have no evidence that the DoDs have committed any atrocities what-so-ever, or even that they started the fight for that matter. The only thing we know is they allied with themselves with a powerful race of DoDs (and as I said earlier, in eastern mythology dragons are more often than not good guys)

The only reason that anyone would believe the MiBs are the good guys is because the story is from the perective of Clare, who is definitely a good person as is her immediate circle of aquaintances (ghosts, raki, father vincent, etc). In real life though, there are good people on both sides of a conflict/war - they just happen to be trying to kill each other because from their perspectives what they are doing is right. That's life. Surely you don't believe that all 16 year old enlisted privates in the German army during WWII were like Hitler?

In short, in order to continue to believe that the DoDs are the bad guys, due to the volume of wrong doings by the MiBs, you are almost forced to believe the DoDs are evil incarnate - genocidal maniacs on and insane quest to conquer and purge all life from the planet or something. Now, I ask you, do you think Yagi would ever give us such a one dimensional villian? Even Ophelia and the bandits had much more depth than that. Characters in Claymore act for personal reasons - and "I want to be evil" is typically not one of them.

At the moment I'm having a difficult time believing the DoD side is evil, so I believe anyone using this line of reasoning as a premise for further arguments is assuming a little more than is safe to assume. That's all.

I only remember what clare said about rubel. And she really isn't the naive kind of girl. Her life simply was to hard for that.
Yuma:
Aren't our goals the same?
Are you implying he can become our ally?
Clare: I wouldn't go that far.
He may have given us information but he is not helping us.
You could say he is even more dangerous than them!
In fact the truth was...
he was trying to get rid of the four of us who half awakened over those seven years.

As my favourite all time character i trust in clare's judgement. And clare probably knows rubel better than anyone else on the island
Therefore i can only warn those who think those DoD's are the saviours. In a war inocence dies first.
I know this is just about rubel and his mission but rubel stands for the other still unknown side and i have a bad feeling about that.
I think yagi showed only how bad the org is to make the truth about the dod's even more shocking.
I know one thing for sure: I can always become worse than before.

[Arkham]

Damn crazy otaku's! Don't you guyz eat or sleap or defecate?
Who can keep up with you? Gangsta and Shiek, go on a vacation

Just kidding. I'm enjoying

[Gangsta Spanksta]

Poll: Can Duaf stand up straight, instead of squatting all the time?

1) Yes
2) No

[Arkham]

I'l say 2. until i see him stand up (if he last's that long )
Anyway,if he can stand up that means he is (maybe) bigger than Isley

[Shiek927]

Originally Posted by Gangsta Spanksta

Poll: Can Duaf stand up straight, instead of squatting all the time?

1) Yes
2) No

Probably not, I think the armor is too heavy so it's the reason he's stationary most of the time.

Roflmao, I would Arkham, but the rest of my family isn't the vacationing type. In fact, vacation was brought up last night, and while I was enthusiastic, no-body else really was, especially since money is such a concern. We might go somewhere this year and I'd love too, but it will probably be in August. Again, money is too much of a concern and no-one else seems interested in going anywhere but me.

In other words, I have all the free-time in the world until school starts again, so I'm usually spending it on here

[Arkham]

Duaf's just lazy bum walking around like a monkey

[MisterJB]

Originally Posted by Gangsta Spanksta

Poll: Can Duaf stand up straight, instead of squatting all the time?

1) Yes
2) No

Is he walking straigth here?

Spoiler for manga page:

[Gangsta Spanksta]

That's hard to Tell JB. It could be the upper leg, above the joint since it seems to be one oval which doesn't change directions.

[dweller of the deep]

It really looks like he is standing. He has his back straight, well, kind of..

[Shiek927]

The thing about Dauf, is that he seems to be hunchbacked. Calling him a baboon(Riful) was probably a good description since he seems to walk like a monkey, probably because of the weight of his armor.

[Arkham]

What do you think Gangsta 1. or 2.?

[Gangsta Spanksta]

It is inconclusive. At first look, I said it looks like he is walking straight. On reexamination, however, I see one oval object, probably the leg above the knee, where there is no sign of joint or a change of direction for the lower leg. Also the oval seems kind of short, if the lower leg is in the same direction as the upper leg? It could be that Clare and co. are on higher ground though. But proportionally, I say the oval is about the size of the upper leg.