What the hell was Zabuza thinking?

[Terriator]

Originally Posted by M1540

oh god...we do not know Haku's FULL STRENGHT!!

stop compare him with other characters
from the manga n anime, both din show Haku use other tecnics other then the mirrors n needles, does it mean Haku only know 2 jutsu? i sure he can walk on the water surface, but they din show it, Zabuzza use kunai, but Haku din, he prefer needle

just like this, me is from Asia, u r from UK, our language totally difference, does tat mean i cannot do anything better then u?

NO, both of us still has our own weakness, just depends on how we overcome it

I agree...we can't compare Haku as we don't know his real stregth. It's impossible.We have no chance of doing so, as we simply don't know, and we can't get to know. we can only make up theories about who would win, but how could we ever know for sure?

[The-Wolf-Of-Mibu]

Haku's full strenth is obviously in his master technique. Theres no point arguing that. He may have been keeping naruto and sasuke alive but htat was still his ultimate move.

[realdeal]

Originally Posted by The-Wolf-Of-Mibu

Your english and grammer are terrible.
Please make an attempt to sharpen it up.

To real deal

Your boxing analogy doest work for two one reason. Boxing is a sport where the person with bigger mass and more muscle is usually the more advatageous.

That is why they have different weight classes.

While Naruto Ninjitsu is about intellingence, dexterity and skill. A 80 pounder like Hinata could beat people 5 times her weight if she was a good ninja.

Hence obviously the older boxer (teens grow alot during teenage years) has an advatage over the younger boxer.

But suppose we are dealing with something like sword fighting.

A 13 year old sword fighter who has been training for longer vs a 15 year old sword fighter who has been training for a shorter amount of time.

Who would win? Is it so clear now? Is the age difference so apparent now?

No if anything they cancel each other out. Haku had an advantage because he was older but that advatage was lessened or completely nullified by the fact that he started Ninjitsu very late and did not go through the Ninja school (which is obviously better for learning)

My english and grammar are fine. I am however typing very very fast...call it typos and shortening words. Id rather spend 5 minutes on a post than 10, simple as that.

Good point about the sword analogy. However ninja requires chakra..chakra develops by age too aswell as training. Strength is also required in ninja. Even in sword fighting the 15 year old will still have advantage due to his add strength by age. However your argument is still invalid as haku started personal training at 7. Sasuke too started at 7 and so most ninja's. Infact he had an advantage..personal tutor who is supposudley very famous vs some crappy classroom with a pretty weak teacher.

Also I really dont see how haku could defeat temari. In a fight scenario temari is simply the worst enemy for haku.

[The-Wolf-Of-Mibu]

Didnt mean you sorry. Meant about m150's grammer.

I really do not think so about calling iruka and the others crappy lol.

If Haku had gone through the academy, I honestly believe he would be stronger than he was.


Shit im late for work. GOTA GO

[hunterx]

Originally Posted by The-Wolf-Of-Mibu

Haku's full strenth is obviously in his master technique. Theres no point arguing that. He may have been keeping naruto and sasuke alive but htat was still his ultimate move.

sorry there is no proof that was his ultimate move. It may have been his bloodline limit but ultimate move we don't know. Take kimi for example. When he stated his bloodline limit it didn't really seem like a big deal until he kept pulling off one move after awesome move using that bloodline limit. Also take neji's fight with oro's henchman. The move that was used to stop the kaiten wasn't a bloodline limit at all, who knows if haku had some sort of ice freezing combination that achieved the same effect on the kaiten. And who knows of neji had some sort of chakra web thingy to stop haku from moving through the mirrors. Who knows even rocklee might have had enough speed in his open gates mode to catch haku while he was moving through them mirrors like naruto did. They are just too many unknown factors to come to a conclusion who would beat who.

[Nine Devil]

I wonder if someone already mentioned? Naruto can't summon Gamabunta without his second chakra source.

Second i doubt if Zabuza even would met Garaa and the other Leaf Genin. And if he could overthrow mizukage. He would be the leader and all peace

[Sazelyt]

If I'm not mistaken bloodline limit is not limited to one move. With Sharingan, you can react faster, copy techniques, use more than one bloodline-based techniques (e.g., Amaterasu, Tsukiyomi). We saw Haku's only mirror technique (and one hand seal, yet we don't know how he did that, whether the seal can be performed with one hand, or he can do any seal with one hand) and we don't know his limits or when he could have reached his limits. When a person has a specific bloodline, no matter how bad or good it is, he has to be given special importance. That's why Zabuza considered Haku as important and decided to use him.
Against Sasuke, we still cannot decide whether his Sharingan will be sufficient against Haku's movements. During their fight, without Naruto's clone attacks, we cannot know what he might really have done against Haku. In his improved state, despite his Sharingan, he could hardly avoid Gaara's attacks. Therefore, even his speed and his Sharingan was not sufficient to avoid some attacks. Considering Haku has more than enough knowledge on human anatomy (e.g., aiming a specific part of Zabuza's body with his needles), even one of his needles can immobilize or, in the worst case, kill Sasuke. So, until Sasuke detects Haku's movements and use Chidori on him, he might have injured in the process.

[Bakafool]

Hmm ... I wonder if Chidori can break those ice mirrors.

[The-Wolf-Of-Mibu]

Ofcourse it can.

When Kakashi was charging to kill zabuza, Haku jumped in the way and he put up an ice mirror thinking it would protect him.

Chidori went through it and killed haku.

What im more curious abou is why it didnt go through zabuza as well. Maybe kakashi was only planning to push it through one body. After all he didnt want to kill oen of his cute doggies.

[JubeiYamazaki]

Originally Posted by Bakafool

Hmm ... I wonder if Chidori can break those ice mirrors.

According to Naruto 2, the chidori can go through the Katon no Jitsu, so I believe it can break the mirrors.

[hunterx]

Originally Posted by The-Wolf-Of-Mibu

Ofcourse it can.

When Kakashi was charging to kill zabuza, Haku jumped in the way and he put up an ice mirror thinking it would protect him.

Chidori went through it and killed haku.

What im more curious abou is why it didnt go through zabuza as well. Maybe kakashi was only planning to push it through one body. After all he didnt want to kill oen of his cute doggies.

could be because the ice shield wasn't meant to block the attack but to slow it down. Haku's intention wasn't to block the attack, it was to take the attack so he could hold down kakashi while zabuza cut them both down (like that chick did in the kenshin ova)

[Inn3rchild]

You can't compare with Neji and Gaara, you know enemies are suppose to become stronger and more powerful as the anime gets deeper.

But why are u trying to make a main point of Haku's and Zabuza's relationship sound stupid. Mishimoto made Zabuza beleive that Haku was an ultimate weapon, then makes him realise at the end. This was put in delibratly. This was one of the big things put in to make Zabuza's 'saga' more interesting.

[Shadamehr]

Originally Posted by The-Wolf-Of-Mibu

Ofcourse it can.

When Kakashi was charging to kill zabuza, Haku jumped in the way and he put up an ice mirror thinking it would protect him.

Chidori went through it and killed haku.

What im more curious abou is why it didnt go through zabuza as well. Maybe kakashi was only planning to push it through one body. After all he didnt want to kill oen of his cute doggies.

He didn't put an ice mirror in the way, he used it to teleport himself there. The chidori hit him directly, it never went through any mirrors.

[The-Wolf-Of-Mibu]

Originally Posted by Shadamehr

He didn't put an ice mirror in the way, he used it to teleport himself there. The chidori hit him directly, it never went through any mirrors.

Go watch carefully.

[Truesquirrel]

Originally Posted by The-Wolf-Of-Mibu

Go watch carefully.

Shadamehr is right, Haku doesn't put the mirror in between himself and Kakashi, but rather it's off to the side. It's in episode 18, I just looked. I'm sure chidori could break through anyway, but it's never been tested.

[Sazelyt]

Originally Posted by Truesquirrel

Shadamehr is right, Haku doesn't put the mirror in between himself and Kakashi, but rather it's off to the side. It's in episode 18, I just looked. I'm sure chidori could break through anyway, but it's never been tested.

I also remember seeing a mirror that is on the left side of the space between Kakashi and Zabuza, though I don't remember if he also created one in the middle.

[Shadamehr]

Originally Posted by The-Wolf-Of-Mibu

Go watch carefully.

Manga ch 30 pgs 14-16. Or as truesquirrel said, anime ep 18. Check again yourself, there was never any ice mirror in the way. I'm not saying I don't think the chidori could pierce it (since it supposedly can bust through anything), I'm just saying we haven't seen it do so.

[UnCauzi]

Really there's no arguments that can be made because A: We don't know how fast Haku was with DIM compared to Lee, B: We don't know how much damage a DIM can withstand (They only started getting broken when Naruto was Kyuubified), C: We don't know all the shit that Haku could have done.

But I'll concede based on what we have seen Haku do in battle, Gaara and Sasuke could beat Haku at the point of the Chuunin Exams. I don't include Naruto since the only reason why Haku lost to him was because Naruto went nutz over Sasukes death. If Haku fought Naruto during the Chuunin exams Naruto would have just ate mad needles and passed out. The rest of the kids at Chuunin exam level are toast if Haku were trying to KILL them.

I'll give it up on Sasuke because I don't feel like argueing with Sharingan fanbois.
Gaara because although I don't think it's impossible for Haku to beat him it's unlikely. I think Haku only has one chance, and that's to kill Gaara before the "armor of sand" comes into play. How would he do this? As soon as he transported through a DIM Gaara would appear to be in slow motion. Avoid the sand and deliver needle to the brain. (Which shouldn't be to hard because Gaara wouldn't expect Haku to be able to breach the initial barrier anyway and just stand there like a dunce. Remember sand armor isn't always on, the sand applies it after the barrier is breached.)

I still believe Neiji would be too busy blocking and kaitening to make an offensive maneuver. If he didn't he'd be a pin cushion. Byakuugan isn't Sharingan, it wouldn't afford him the reflexes Sasuke has. (Go back to your own thread to discuss this neiji vs sasuke freaks lol)

Chouji would just meat tank around yeah that would be hard to dodge lol. Remember how slow things look to Haku while flying between mirrors? He'd throw a needle in his brain in rotation.

Temari? All depends on if the DIM's would be destroyed by the fans wind. If Haku got one DIM up Haku wins and remember it takes no time at all for Haku to make one mirror. He made 2 before Kakashi ran 20 feet with amazing speed to Zabuzza lol. Temari would be in slow motion, Haku would deliver needle to the brain.

Lee? Lee better gate quick, cause Haku would needle to the brain.

Shikamaru? Talk needle to the brain.

Flat out, you need some awesome defense or speed to beat Haku. To illustrate how fast Haku is remember Kakashi charging with Chidori. Haku does a one hand seal, creates 2 demon ice mirrors AND throws needles into Kakashis scrolls to cancel Kakashis Dog Summon before eating the Chidori.

Hakus was badass for such a pussy.

[UnCauzi]

Originally Posted by Shadamehr

Manga ch 30 pgs 14-16. Or as truesquirrel said, anime ep 18. Check again yourself, there was never any ice mirror in the way. I'm not saying I don't think the chidori could pierce it (since it supposedly can bust through anything), I'm just saying we haven't seen it do so.

Yeah supposedly, but although tough it's not like the DIM are indestructible. Kyuubi naruto punched through one, and knocked Haku through another. (Possible argument that Hakus Chakra keeps the Mirrors together and at that point Haku was low. Besides, who wants to splat on their own mirror lol)

[Shadamehr]

We talkin' transformed Gaara or non-transformed? Non-transformed, I dunno, since Zabuza explicitly stated that Haku knows every jutsu that he does. Can Gaara find him in the mist? Can Gaara's sand armor protect him from drowning in a water dragon blast, or being trapped in a water prison? Can Gaara tell what's going on if there's water clones all over the place? I mean if Gaara gets to carry a gourd of sand around (which magically has much more sand than its own volume), I don't see why Haku couldn't bring a gourd of water with him. Furthermore, say Haku does get Gaara in the water prison. He can now shred him to pieces with his bloodline. In fact, we saw in Haku's flashbacks that he has considerable control over water and ice, comparable even to Gaara's own control over sand. Not saying that Haku would definitely win, just that I think this would be a more complicated fight than 'can he get him before the armor of sand comes up'.

Originally Posted by UnCauzi

Yeah supposedly, but although tough it's not like the DIM are indestructible. Kyuubi naruto punched through one, and knocked Haku through another. (Possible argument that Hakus Chakra keeps the Mirrors together and at that point Haku was low. Besides, who wants to splat on their own mirror lol)

I know, I agree that the chidori could probably bust an ice mirror. I was just raising objection to that example, since it clearly did not happen.