The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya - Episode 16 Discussion / Poll [2009 added ep. 6]

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by OverMaster

Well, if he thinks no one is suffering anything because of it, sure.

If he knows or even suspects it might be starting to take its toll on Nagato or anyone else, however, there's no way he shouldn't be acting.

What is he supposed to do? At least he TRIES to think of something, but he CAN'T.

I suspect you've read the novel, so you know the solution, but really, how obvious is it?

[Ithekro]

He's tired. He feels defeated. He feels the pressure, and as soon as Haruhi leaves...he feels like he's failed...no way out. At that point it becomes more like "screw it". He's also lazy.

Base problem, he doesn't know how to get out of the loop. He doesn't even know what they did at the end of the other loops (he didn't ask Yuki about it). Yuki doesn't give up information unless asked, and Kyon just doesn't ask.

He's tired of Haruhi caused problems and would rather just enjoy himself. He seems like he'd like to spend time away from all of them, but because Haruhi calls, he must come (or else the Universe might be destroyed...again).

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Base problem, he doesn't know how to get out of the loop. He doesn't even know what they did at the end of the other loops (he didn't ask Yuki about it). Yuki doesn't give up information unless asked, and Kyon just doesn't ask.

Actually, he cuts her off.

I keep noticing that, how he stops her short every time.

[Malkuth]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

You know, maybe they're just old-school, but I bet Kadokawa prefers the days where the people in foreign markets weren't pirating their works left-right-and-center and then claiming to be "customers" without paying a single cent for the content. Where customers of services or entertainment were supposed to vote with THEIR WALLETS if they didn't like what was being served up.

But I guess that, for those who like being on the cutting edge and have the audacity to tell them from half-way around the world that they're doing it all wrong, THIS is truly what they deserve.

So you suggest that this is Kadokawa's answer to torrents, ed2k, IRC, darknets, etc? Should I generalize this that new movies and music also sucks because of piracy and technology?

Or do you imply that when we do not like something we must shut up because we got it for free? and not warn all those who are about to lose their money? I still have fond memories of the time when I moved away from my parent's house, some 10 years ago and threw away half my CDs, simply because I had no access even to a single to decide.

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

I'm being mostly facetious (yes, I know that people in Japan are mad too, and I know that Kadokawa is streaming it with subtitles), but you're not getting "screwed". They don't owe you entertainment. Of course it's fine that your expectations haven't been met and that you're disappointed, but don't make this into some sort of master plan to screw people over. We're in this by choice. If you don't like what they're selling, don't buy it. If and when you do like what they're selling, buy it. If you don't want to wait, watch/buy something else.

The customer isn't always right, but they're always the customer... except, in some cases, when they're not.

(I guess I'm trying to say, "quit acting so butthurt", but I guess that's sort of your point, so... )

And then you can all sing in unison how the hell some fanboys put a 10 before they actually see the episode and have the the inverse resulting using the same argument

[Takamura Mamoru]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

I think everyone here would act exactly like Kyon, if you ask me.

Would you actually be able to think of a way to stop summer from looping again?

And besides, Kyon isn't stupid, he's lazy. This is perfectly in character for him.

Even if I wouldn't, I'd still try saying something. Even if it's just some completely random event, but don't let her walk away when you know it's gonna end up with a repeat. Trying is always better than just giving up. Even a "Haruhi, wait we're not done yet" would fucking be enough.

And Kyon may be lazy, but this isn't a situation where you even can be lazy.
"Yea, time will repeat itself for eternity. Who cares, I don't" - Hurr hurr durr.
This isn't some kind of riddle game, it's a question of whether the world will ever see a future.

If you would act like Kyon, I feel deeply sorry for you.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by OverMaster

Which was funny exactly because both sides were right and were wrong at the same time. Because although *technically* a company isn't contractually obligated to NOT offer their target public crap, the fact still stands that crap is crap regardless of the surrounding circumstances. And it's still the target public's right to say so as long as this is a free world. Do the companies have to act on it? Not really, but it's pointless to try and discourage criticisms based on those strawmen grounds. They have the right to fail, we have the right to vent complains about it.

Well, with a comment like the original, you can do nothing but either accept or dismiss it. That wasn't really a criticism of the show so much as it was a simple expression of disgust. I'm fine with criticism, but I think some people take it too far by playing the "hurt" card, as with the bit before where people claimed it was some sort of "fraud". If all people are going to do is vent their anger and frustration, then I'm at least led to question "why do you keep putting yourself in this position voluntarily?". It's not about dismissing the argument, but more about questioning/tempering the emotion. It's the only way to objectively discuss what's going on (and I'm at least glad to see that the forum has calmed down somewhat from last week in that regard).

Originally Posted by OverMaster

And rest assured, I'm not into Haruhi Suzumiya piracy, thank you very much.

Well, I guess I assume by default that people on this fansub-oriented forum and commenting on this episode probably are. Granted, though, that this show is being streamed officially 6 days later.

Originally Posted by Charred Knight

All that needs to be said about the ''Customer is always right" thing is when someone tried to pull this off by breaking his pirated copy of the first season.

...which was a joke, but still deliciously ironic.

Originally Posted by Malkuth

So you suggest that this is Kadokawa's answer to torrents, ed2k, IRC, darknets, etc? Should I generalize this that new movies and music also sucks because of piracy and technology?

Or do you imply that when we do not like something we must shut up because we got it for free? and not warn all those who are about to lose their money? I still have fond memories of the time when I moved away from my parent's house, some 10 years ago and threw away half my CDs, simply because I had no access even to a single to decide.

Not suggesting either one. But I am suggesting that I don't feel oh so upset when this culture of entitlement finds themselves a bit hurt by their own expectations. Plus, I have no sympathy for the "we're being screwed" and "I'm so hurt" and "this is crap" arguments as a substitute for actual criticism of the show's content and storytelling approach. I think the anger is out of proportion to the actual "wrong" being claimed, and we'll look back at this whole thing as just a lot of drama from something that wasn't all that big of a deal. But I guess we'll see...

Originally Posted by Malkuth

And then you can all sing in unison how the hell some fanboys put a 10 before they actually see the episode and have the the inverse resulting using the same argument

Well, in all seriousness, I'd like if no one votes on episodes before they view them, because it's stupid either way. Then again, I hate episode polls (and episode threads), so...

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Malkuth

Or do you imply that when we do not like something we must shut up because we got it for free?

Actually, that's pretty much true. We're getting this completely for free here, as all we're wasting is time.

Do we have a right to complain? Not really. Are we still going to complain? Hell yes.

Originally Posted by Takamura Mamoru

If you would act like Kyon, I feel deeply sorry for you.

But what is he supposed to do? He doesn't know of anything that CAN solve the loop.

Even if he stops her, what is he supposed to say? If he can't think of anything, she'll just ignore him and go on her way like she always does.

[Triple_R]

I'm inclined to agree with OverMaster.

Also, this isn't an unique-to-Haruhi original approach.

It's been done before - it dates back at least as far as the early 90s movie Groundhog Day. The story approach here isn't revolutionary. Even within anime this has kind of/sort of been done before - within Higurashi (although Higurashi was at least creative enough to have substantial plot differences from one time loop iteration to the next).

This isn't like the chronological out of order episode sequence, which truly was unique, and arguably added a distinctive charm and feel to Haruhi.

I can understand big-time Haruhiists wanting to defend the show and the anime production team behind it - to ensure that it gets good PR which of course is good for the Haruhi franchise - but, at the same time, I think that there comes a point where damage control ends and pushing for needed changes is practical.

There also comes a point where putting something off that has been longed for by the fans results not in more anticipation (and hence more buzz when it finally arrives), but rather results in a sense of apathy setting in as more and more people gradually start caring less and less as their patience runs out.

Now, I certainly don't go everywhere on the internet, but from where I do go, I've seen how Haruhi's popularity is starting to wane a bit on more general anime and pop fiction forums, and gradually her prominence within the collective consciousness of the general anime fan base has lessened.

I've also read a few anime-oriented blogs - my impression from them is that people aren't getting angry with this anime so much as they're getting bored with it - and that's not a good sign. Especially when you couple it with how Haruhi's distinctive look is getting K-ONified (yes, I'm aware that this isn't entirely true for all episodes, but it's noticeable for more than enough).

I'm worried - not for my own short-term enjoyment, but about the future of this particular anime franchise that has loads of potential, and that I like a lot. It has significant cross-over appeal by wedding "slice of life" otaku-focused comedy/spoof with sci-fi action adventure mystery and philosophy. A lot of the people into the sci-fi action/philosophy side of things are losing interest - keep in mind that not only is this five episodes of Endless Eight in a row (and with at least one more to go), it's also six episodes of pure slice of life (Bamboo Rhapsody was pretty much slice of life). It's not even particularly comedic slice of life - to be brutally honest, it makes me think of taking one of the episodes of the first half of Season 2 of Shakugan no Shana and making it into a time loop...

Anyway, those are just my thoughts.

[Ice Block]

And I'm gonna post it again! Seriously, are people just blind and gloss over this or is my wording too deep?

As of this episode, Kyon doesn't exactly know how many times they have gone through the Revelation -> BAD END scenario. He could be thinking: Hey, we've only found out about the time loop a couple dozen times at most, so maybe next time we'll figure something out.

Coupled with his inherently lazy personality, he just accepts defeat and waits for the next round to come -- no one's getting physically hurt anyway. Plus, Yuki even says she's just fine.

Originally Posted by Takamura Mamoru

Even if I wouldn't, I'd still try saying something. Even if it's just some completely random event, but don't let her walk away when you know it's gonna end up with a repeat. Trying is always better than just giving up. Even a "Haruhi, wait we're not done yet" would fucking be enough.

Look at it this way. They always find out about the loop the night after the part-time job. Now, wouldn't you think that they had already had all that time to brainstorm and experiment? How would they know anyway that these are the exact same things they've tried countless times to try and break the cycle. Why don't they ask Yuki? Lol. Mikuru is afraid, Koizumi is enjoying the loop, and Kyon is just lazy.

This is what happens when you instantly dump the episode -- you miss all the little details that only become apparent upon multiple viewings.

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

This isn't like the chronological out of order episode sequence, which truly was unique, and arguably added a distinctive charm and feel to Haruhi.

No it isn't. Look around, it's been done before.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Especially when you couple it with how Haruhi's distinctive look is getting K-ONified (yes, I'm aware that this isn't entirely true for all episodes, but it's noticeable for more than enough).

...

...

Sigh.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I'm worried - not for my own short-term enjoyment, but about the future of this particular anime franchise that has loads of potential, and that I like a lot.

Just read the books if you're worried about direction, maybe?

[vaden]

Originally Posted by Takamura Mamoru

And Kyon may be lazy, but this isn't a situation where you even can be lazy.
"Yea, time will repeat itself for eternity. Who cares, I don't" - Hurr hurr durr.
This isn't some kind of riddle game, it's a question of whether the world will ever see a future.

If you would act like Kyon, I feel deeply sorry for you.

We've seen time loop over itself several times already. Kyon, as far as he knows, has only been through a single iteration, and when he eventually wakes up on 1 September, he'll only remember that one time through. The nonexistence of the future just doesn't make sense to him, so where would he begin to solve the problem? (And he's not even completely confident that it is a problem — the occurrence of 15,000 loops takes a lot of suspension of disbelief if you haven't experienced more than one.) If I were confronted with something as incomprehensible as that, I'd probably give up 99.99% of the time too.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

No it isn't. Look around, it's been done before.

I'm not personally aware of any.

Some animes may have flashback/prequel episodes thrown in half-way through (Shakuga no Shana comes to mind), but I can't think of any show that has a chronological episode order and totally randomized it... other than Haruhi.

...

...

Sigh.

I'm not saying that the K-ON art style is bad - I'm mainly saying that Season 1 Haruhi had a distinctive look to her that I think helped on a promotional level.

Heck, Haruhi's image was streamlined brand-like - very bold, colorful, unique and yet instantly recognizable - not unlike Mario, Link, Hulk Hogan, Superman, etc... This is very, VERY good for promotional purposes, and truly helps sells DVDs. I know people who bought Haruhi DVDs just because they liked the distinctive look of Season 1 Haruhi Suzumiya. She had become the Mario of anime. People see the face, and they buy it.

Turning Haruhi into Yui from K-ON lessens that major promotional strength.

Just read the books if you're worried about direction, maybe?

...Wow. I'm just offering an opinion. Isn't one of the valid topics of discussion for a Haruhi Suzumiya board the overall direction of the anime? And if a particular episode relates to that overall direction (which this one clearly does), then isn't it on topic to discuss that direction within an episode thread like this one?

If you disagree with me, fine - it's no big deal to me. I'm just expressing my viewpoints like anybody else.

[mokuseimaru]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

I'm being mostly facetious (yes, I know that people in Japan are mad too, and I know that Kadokawa is streaming it with subtitles), but you're not getting "screwed". They don't owe you entertainment. Of course it's fine that your expectations haven't been met and that you're disappointed, but don't make this into some sort of master plan to screw people over. We're in this by choice. If you don't like what they're selling, don't buy it. If and when you do like what they're selling, buy it. If you don't want to wait, watch/buy something else.

The customer isn't always right, but they're always the customer... except, in some cases, when they're not.

(I guess I'm trying to say, "quit acting so butthurt", but I guess that's sort of your point, so... )

They may not "owe" us episodes of Haruhi. However, since Kadokawa owns the license to the Haruhi line and thus has the final say on Haruhi adaptations, one can reasonably lament that the source material is being adapted in a way that one feels is unworthy of the original.

For example, supposing I were the head of a multi-million dollar Japanese animation company, and after seeing all these Endless Eights I decide I could do a better adaptation and start making my own "The Disappearance of Haruhi Suzumiya" and try to get it aired. Of course, the Japanese government will never allow me to do so because that would be copyright infringement. Of course, Kadokawa has that right as the legal owner---they could air a half-an-hour of a jar of mayonnaise (I stole this idea from someone else here, I mean the mayo part) and call it "The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya" and no one could stop them. But that doesn't mean I'm obligated to approve of how they handle their license.

[Ice Block]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

...Wow. I'm just offering an opinion. Isn't one of the valid topics of discussion for a Haruhi Suzumiya board the overall direction of the anime? And if a particular episode relates to that overall direction (which this one clearly does), then isn't it on topic to discuss that direction within an episode thread like this one?

Apologies, but this has already been discussed to death 15521 times in the previous E8 threads, the General Discussion, Spoilers and Speculation (for experienced viewers) and the Future Episode Predictions thread. As you can see, just as most are fed up with all the repetition in the show, we are also fed up with all the repetitions in the forum discussion.

[Slick_rick]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I'm not personally aware of any.

Some animes may have flashback/prequel episodes thrown in half-way through (Shakuga no Shana comes to mind), but I can't think of any show that has a chronological episode order and totally randomized it... other than Haruhi.

Boogiepop phantom comes to mind as well as one that was played primarily backwards but the name escapes me.

[Midonin]

Rental Magica aired its episode out of order, and it looks like this season's Yoku Wakaru Gendai Mahou is doing likewise.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I can understand big-time Haruhiists wanting to defend the show and the anime production team behind it - to ensure that it gets good PR which of course is good for the Haruhi franchise - but, at the same time, I think that there comes a point where damage control ends and pushing for needed changes is practical.

I want to ask a serious but slightly tangential question: do people actually do this for real? Like, post for the express purpose of "defending the show", or "ensuring it gets good PR"? That just seems crazy to me. If I post, it's because I'm expressing my legitimate point of view. I assume that everyone else is doing the same. I can't imagine that anyone posts with anything but their own interests in mind; they want to express their own opinion and ensure that it's represented. They're not going "oh damn, I need to do my part to change the global balance of opinion on Haruhi before it's too late!", because, really? This just seems like a not-so-classy way of dismissing people who have positive opinions, which is the same as the way people who have legitimate negative opinions feel when they're accused of being trolls.

It's also presumptive like crazy. What are the supposed "needed changes"? In the grand scheme of things, I think this arc will be fine. People are just extra-uptight because they're living in the moment and are watching the clock ticking (in some cases, literally...) Worse comes to worst, we can be like Kyon and make like all the other time loops never happened. This isn't the end of Haruhi. (Oh wait, am I just "doing damage control"? )

Originally Posted by Triple_R

There also comes a point where putting something off that has been longed for by the fans results not in more anticipation (and hence more buzz when it finally arrives), but rather results in a sense of apathy setting in as more and more people gradually start caring less and less as their patience runs out.

We'll see. I have a hard time believing that, except for a few who will boycott out of spite, most people won't come back when the time comes. Only time will tell, though.

Originally Posted by mokuseimaru

They may not "owe" us episodes of Haruhi. However, since Kadokawa owns the license to the Haruhi line and thus has the final say on Haruhi adaptations, one can reasonably lament that the source material is being adapted in a way that is unworthy of the original.

...but only if they do this instead of animating the parts you want. I suppose you could look at it as "filler". Worst case, it's a blight, but it only becomes a "scar" if they never get to the "good parts" or do the good parts poorly. So far, it just seems to me like they're making us wait more, which is annoying, but not necessarily "lethal".

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Ice Block

Apologies, but this has already been discussed to death 15521 times in the previous E8 threads, the General Discussion, Spoilers and Speculation (for experienced viewers) and the Future Episode Predictions thread. As you can see, just as most are fed up with all the repetition in the show, we are also fed up with all the repetitions in the forum discussion.

Well, I appreciate the kind sentiment from you.

I haven't read through all of the previous E8 threads, and this is my first time commenting.

I've only got caught back up with the Haruhi anime itself recently. I decided to wait awhile until a few episodes where out as I generally prefer to watch several episodes in one sitting instead of watching them on an one per week basis...

In retrospect, that might have been a mistake on my part in this instance at least.

[aorta]

There is the theory of the Möbius — a twist in the fabric of space where time becomes a loop from which there is no escape. So when we reach that point, whatever happened will happen again.

[panzerfan]

I don't mind discussing Möbius , but the "cake is a lie" sign is on the wall about that, and the whispers to my ears are pointing to Ontology thread/spoiler thread.

(looks around, seeing how people can't take it easy at all about this, laments, then heads out)