[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 5 End of the golden witch

[Jan-Poo]

Well if I reread my first post on this page, while I did say it was a lame choice I specified "imho" and "I didn't like it". I'm aware there are no solid arguments to back this. As the ancient roman saying goes: "de gustibus non disputandum est".

Not like my opinion of Ryukishi will change for such a trivial "flaw" anyway ^^;

BTW to change the course of the discussion to something related, I can't help but to notice the general confusion there is around the knox rules in umineko. I've seen a lot of theories that are based on the rules the way they are described by Knox, but I think it is kinda obvious that there are some significative differences.

To make it worse I've also seen some questionable translations.

Like here: http://umineko.wikia.com/wiki/Red_Text

Knox´s 1st Commandment。The criminal must be mentioned earlier in the story but must not be someone whose thoughts the reader has been allowed to see！！

This isn't a translation at all it is a copypasta of the original Knox rule, and it is wrong, because in Umineko it cuts before the "thoughts" are mentioned.

Knox´s 4th Commandment. Undiscovered poisons or method of murders are forbidden！！

And this is the opposite situation, a copypasta would have been more accurate than this. For once that Ryukishi didn't change a rule at all XD

Knox´s 10th Commandment. The existence of twins or duplicates can only exist if the reader is warned beforehand.

There is no mention of twins just "people disguised as others". Of course it includes twins pretending to be their twin sibling, but not the twins themselves.

[MeoTwister5]

Okay guys.... really late but here's the final summary for Ep5 Ura Tea Party, likewise the end of Ep5 itself.

Spoiler for Ep5 Tea Party Final Summary:

- Dlanor is blown aside.
- The witches are shocked by the gold truth, with Lambda even saying that she as the game manager cannot use it. Dlanor calls it inferior.
- Dlanor and Erika reluctantly accept his gold truth. Bern and Lambda giggle at this turn of events.
- Erika will bring into question Hideyoshi's death and his button.
- Battler says in red that The absence of Kinzo is proven. The dishonor heaped on Natsuhi and Kinzo is disproven. Natsuhi is a chaste and proper person. Battler cannot forgive the tastless story about Natsuhi.
- He adds in red that there is renewed doubt on the alibis of all the persons. The possibility of the crime is no longer exclusive to Natsuhi.
- Dlanor insists in red that this confirmation was done by Battler (suggesting he is the detective), however this violated Knox 7 that states the detective cannot be the criminal. The detective is obligated to present his reasoning and Battler violates this. Erika is the detective and by Knox 9 observers are allowed their own interpretation of the facts she presents. Knox 8 prohibits unpresented clues. You (Battler) are not the detective but an observer with his own interpretation.
- Battler says in red that with Kinzo status, witnessing his status (?) is impossible. Therefor there is no objective viewpoint to this entire issue.
- Dlanor says in blue that this is Battler's interpretation that there was a misidentification, and again by Knox 9 he is entitled to this.
- Battler counters with red that as Beato's revelation in the fourth game, no one would mistake identifying Kinzo
- The narrator reminds again that previous attempts have shown that no one would misidentify Kinzo's corpse.
- Battler says in red that while Knox 9 allows the observer's interpretation, only the red truth can validate whether he was really misidentified.
- Dlanor seems to suggest that if it wasn't an accidental misidentification, perhaps it was intentional (???).
- Battler says in blue that since he goes by Knox 9 and not Knox 7, his insistence on the truth of Kinzo's true status is his proof.
- Dlanor is struck by Battler's blue and falls to the floor.
- Dlanor resigns. Erika is irate and Battler admonishes her for her actions and treatment of Dlanor.
- Battler says in blue to Erika that Natsuhi's reasons are due to being threatened by a man of 19 years ago, who is really him, through an internal line. This is to portray Natsuhi as the culprit of the murders as his mode of revenge.
- Erika says in blue that his reasoning causes a conflict in her mind. Lambda wonders what she means while Bern admits that, due to all the spears stabbing Erika, she made a mistake.
- The narrator likens this admission to an admission of defeat. Erika seems stunned.
- Bern is apparently angry at Erika and admonishes her too. She seems to suggest that Erika is now a useless piece. Erika sheds tears. The correction allows some (?) of the blue spears in Erika to shatter and freeing her somewhat.
- Battler admits that their truth exists in the same way as his in this world. Dlanor agrees and likewise criticizes Erika.
- Lambda says that while Battler's truths have run over Erika's truths, Erika's truths still cannot be denied. She withdraws a declaration of a victor and says the game still goes. She admits that game master status has been moved to Battler and appoints him game manager thusly.
- Battler accepts being the new game master for the sixth game. Erika begs for a chance to continue fighting in the sixth game.
- Bern says Erika's survival of the fifth game was miraculous and tells her to expose his sixth game. Dlanor will likewise join.
- Erika calls this a declaration of war and declares herself the detective.
- Battler talks to a "Beato" saying he will succeed in her role in this game and take back control of the game board.
- Battler restates his challenge.
- End of Ep5 ??? Tea Party.

Spoiler for Tea Party Red Truth:

- Beato wished for Battler to solve the mystery and the way it was invented was for it to be solved.
- Battler: The truth can differ because of differing interpretations.
- Dlanor: Knox article 1 says a criminal that was not presented as one of the current characters is not allowed.
- Dlanor: Knox article 8, that a solution from an unpresented clue is not allowed.
- Battler: In the 4th game he was presented as someone with no identifiable mother. It is clearly specified the questionable nature of his birth and existence.
- Erika: Battler was in the dining room during this time.
- Battler: It was not specifically done in the one hour after 12mn.
- Erika: it is impossible to have done it after 1am.
- Dlanor: Knox article 8 again. It is impossible for Erika to have not noticed a clue pertaining to the murder during this time.
- Erika: The red has confirmed them dead by then. People have confirmed their corpses. If the autopsy is unmistaken, all have beend declared dead by the red.
- Ronove: Lambda made a declaration as to their time of death.
- Gaap: Kinzo not existed since the games began.
- Seven Stakes: Asmodeus says in red that George's remains are not moved after her death. Beelzebub says Jessica was not moved either. Mammon says Maria was likewise not moved. Belphegor says it is the same for Rosa. Satan says Genji in the mansion was also unmoved. Leviathan says even Kinzo is in unmoved. Lucifer clinches that with Kinzo nonexistent him carrying out the bodies fail.
- Battler: the remains identifying Kinzo are presented (Kinzo being there I presume).
- Battler: In this closed island there is no objective method to show that this is really Kinzo's corpse.
- Battler: The absence of Kinzo is proven. The dishonor heaped on Natsuhi and Kinzo is disproven. Natsuhi is a chaste and proper person. Battler cannot forgive the tastless story about Natsuhi.
- Battler: There is renewed doubt on the alibis of all the persons. The possibility of the crime is no longer exclusive to Natsuhi.
- Dlanor: This confirmation was done by Battler (suggesting he is the detective), however this violated Knox 7 that states the detective cannot be the criminal. The detective is obligated to present his reasoning and Battler violates this. Erika is the detective and by Knox 9 observers are allowed their own interpretation of the facts she presents. Knox 8 prohibits unpresented clues. You (Battler) are not the detective but an observer with his own interpretation.
- Battler: Kinzo status, witnessing his status (?) is impossible. Therefor there is no objective viewpoint to this entire issue.
- Battler: Knox 9 allows the observer's interpretation, only the red truth can validate whether he was really misidentified.

Spoiler for Tea Party Blue Truth:

- Dlanor: The solution based on Erika's reasoning is truth based on the evidence.
- Battler: Revenge by the baby of 19 years ago admitted by Natsuhi is possible.
- Battler: The person was introduced at the beginning. What if it was him?
- Erika: It is impossible for Battler to do it in the 1 hour after 12mn. The crime is impossible.
- Battler: It could have been done on 1am after 12mn. (?)
- Battler: The event in question is in the time he screamed and everyone arrived. It is possible to have killed them after this.
- Ronove: The red truth declaration was not made at this time.
- Erika: That the denial cannot be done, and that the death declaration cannot be specified at the time of this event.
- Ronove: The death declaration was made at the end of the game, at 12mn. It was only called after the event came to light. You can't deny that the homicide since the second morning.
- Ronove: If the autopsy is not mistaken even if the corpses are identified, it is not said that one that is not a corpse cannot (body is missing?) be called a corpse. Ok in other words I think it has something to do with the disappearance of the corpses, that you can't call a missing corpse a corpse.
- Virgilia: Her reasoning fails, since Kinzo's does not exist and there is nobody to do it, therefore her logic fails.
- Dlanor: This could easily be another corpse presented as Kinzo. This red truth stated could be invalidated. (?) You cannot consider this evidence until it is proven to be Kinzo. Checkmate.
- Dlanor: Battler's interpretation that there was a misidentification, and again by Knox 9 he is entitled to this.
- Battler: since he goes by Knox 9 and not Knox 7, his insistence on the truth of Kinzo's true status is his proof.
- Battler: Natsuhi's reasons are due to being threatened by a man of 19 years ago, who is really him, through an internal line. This is to portray Natsuhi as the culprit of the murders as his mode of revenge.
- Erika: Battler reasoning causes a conflict in her mind.

Spoiler for Tea Party Gold Truth:

- I guarantee this is Kinzo's corpse.

And with that... my summaries come to an end.

Thanks for tuning in!

[kite11]

Thank you so much, can't wait for this to be animated... Actually, all the red vs. blue battles. No wait, this entire episode was awesome.

[Tjfarmer]

Anything with lots of Natsuhi is bound to be awesome, of course.

But I still can't really judge the episode yet, because I have yet to read it XD But the summaries do make it look great.

[Volcanic]

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

Spoiler for Ep5 Tea Party Final Summary:

- Battler talks to a "Beato" saying he will succeed in her role in this game and take back control of the game board.
- Battler restates his challenge.

Spoiler for Tea Party Red Truth:

- Beato wished for Battler to solve the mystery and the way it was invented was for it to be solved.

No matter how intense this part was, those are definitely going to be Crowning Moments of Heartwarming when animated. ;_;

What a good ending. I thought at first this was going to be insane crazy "WTFBBQ" due to

Spoiler for EP5:

Golden Sorcerer Battler

but man, it's a great ending that isn't as cliffhanger-ish as I heard but instead closes EP5 beautifully and sets the stage for EP6, unlike the rest of the games, which I kinda felt lead into each other like one story.

Thanks, Meo-san. This was really great and helped a lot of us. You did awesome~!

[Antera Caramichael]

Well this ending makes me think of the one of the first Ep as it was a sort of introduction to the following games.

[luckyssol]

- Lambda says that while Battler's truths have run over Erika's truths, Erika's truths still cannot be denied. She withdraws a declaration of a victor and says the game still goes. She admits that game master status has been moved to Battler and appoints him game manager thusly.

Did anyone else get the feeling that the only reason Lambda did this was to make Bern think it was her plan all along?
Lambda didn't want Bern to see that she lost control of the kakera due to Battler's actions.

- Bern is apparently angry at Erika and admonishes her too. She seems to suggest that Erika is now a useless piece. Erika sheds tears. The correction allows some (?) of the blue spears in Erika to shatter and freeing her somewhat.

Of course Bern blames it on Erika being weak but mabye meta-Battler is becoming more powerful than the two witches.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Ssol

Did anyone else get the feeling that the only reason Lambda did this was to make Bern think it was her plan all along?
Lambda didn't want Bern to see that she lost control of the kakera due to Battler's actions.

I doubt that, Lambda doesn't feel the least discomforted with Battler's revival, on the contrary she looks very amused. She's the one that recognizes Battler as a "majutsushi". If Lambda didn't do that, Battler couldn't have done anything, because only witches and magicians can still play after the game has ended, and one needs to be recognized as a "mage" by another "mage" to receive such a title.

Rather than the idea that Lambda "did this to make Bern think it was her plan all along" I'm more of the idea that: "did this because it was her plan all along"

As I have previously pointed out, Dlanor knew that Battler would come back, so Lambda could have predicted it as well. There's also that scene where Bern and Erika are talking and then they wonder where Lambda went, only to find out she's talking alone to the impaled Battler. If Battler was really gone for good, why Lambda bothered?

There is however something very strange about Lambda. She didn't feel the least threatened by Bern and Erika winning the game, and she doesn't feel the least threatened by Battler becoming the knew gamemaster and getting to know all the truth behind the game.
This makes me think that Lambda knows something that the others do not. There must be something that gives her confidence that the game won't end even when someone discloses every truth.

[Ithekro]

Battler is still filling in the rock role to Bern's scissors and Lambda's paper. He can defeat Bern, but not Lambda. Unless be becomes a Giant Rock so that the Super Paper can't cover him.

[TsundereCake]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Battler is still filling in the rock role to Bern's scissors and Lambda's paper. He can defeat Bern, but not Lambda. Unless be becomes a Giant Rock so that the Super Paper can't cover him.

That's TOTALLY what's gonna happen XDDD

[MeoTwister5]

Supah Paypah!

My biggest concern is how Lambda seems so willing to relinquish game master control to Battler. To me it screams more of her priority to be entertained by some new means rather than simple victory. She obviously cares less abut victory than being entertained.

[Jan-Poo]

She didn't relinquish the game master control to Battler, she relinquished it to Erika.
Then Erika saw it snatched away by Battler before she could even use that power.

[MeoTwister5]

Meh. I guess I read it wrong.

[k//eternal]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Battler is still filling in the rock role to Bern's scissors and Lambda's paper. He can defeat Bern, but not Lambda. Unless be becomes a Giant Rock so that the Super Paper can't cover him.

GIANT ENEMY ROCK

You attack his weak point for massive damage?

[Jan-Poo]

Well I hope I am not getting it wrong but...

Bern: "エピソード６は何てタイトルにするか、あなたが決めなさい。@もはや、この物語の紡ぎ手でありマスターで あるのは、あなたなのだから"

"What will be the title of episode 6, you must decide it. Because, At this point, the "master" who's weaving this story it is you" <- sucky translation

and later Lambda (one of my favourite quotes **):

くすくす、悔しい？　ねぇねぇ、悔しい？！@　せっかく領主になれたのに、いきなり剥奪ッてどんな気持ち？ ！どんな気持ちッ？

"Hu hu, are you frustrated? tell me, tell me, are you frustrated? After going to all that trouble to be the master, how does it feel to be suddenly deprived of it? How does it feel?"

I hope I haven't made a huge mistake, but it should be correct ^^;;;

[Dlanor .A. Nox]

Wow I was waiting for that for so long lol congrats on finishing your summaries, that was one long haul lol.

[MeoTwister5]

That's sort of the thing, since Lambda uses a pronoun for you and we know don't actually know who she's talking to. She doesn't mention a name, and if she uses no noun or pronoun at all she would be referring to herself, so since Battler takes the mantle of GM I automatically assumed she was referring to Battler and just mocked Erika at the side.

[Li Jianliang]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

BTW to change the course of the discussion to something related, I can't help but to notice the general confusion there is around the knox rules in umineko. I've seen a lot of theories that are based on the rules the way they are described by Knox, but I think it is kinda obvious that there are some significative differences.

To make it worse I've also seen some questionable translations.

Like here: http://umineko.wikia.com/wiki/Red_Text

I've been making edits and correcting things in the Red Text from episode 5 on that page, but only at the rate I'm playing the game, so it's only up to the end of the knocking and the letter stuff. *eyestrain*
...I'm not sure why someone threw in 'people die when they are killed XD'.

[Jan-Poo]

I'd do it myself if I were confident enough, but while I can see some evident errors I can't know for sure what is completely correct ^^;

Anyway I've noticed some changes in that page, you are not alone in such endeavor

[Escargotage]

Alright, I've finished Episode 5... sort of.

Anyway, I have a question. During the "meta-courtroom" scene, it was declared in red that Natushi isn't a culprit... so why does Erika continue pushing the theory that she is? Is she that much of a bitch?

Forgive me if this was answered in one of your summaries, Meo.

And on another note, my hatred for Bern skyrocketed after "reading" this episode. God damn.