AnimeSuki Forums

ac195 · 2009-09-15, 07:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by poko-kun

#158

Spoiler for spoil:

Hahaha, now that would be pretty funny.

Bambi · 2009-09-15, 08:28

Looks like pitchers e-peen measuring chapter

158km/s vs 150km/s

poko-kun · 2009-09-15, 12:00

Anyone has LJ account?
I just found this community
http://community.livejournal.com/clover_cafe/
It just opened, but looks promising.

joeboygo · 2009-09-15, 16:30

Goldangit! I can't read Chinese. Why is the Japanese raw so slow this week?

poko-kun · 2009-09-15, 21:12

chinese scanlation can be faster than raw... most of the time.

The Rumblefish · 2009-09-16, 03:35

No success reading the chapter so far either. Damn. Hopefully the scanlators can do miracles. I would not mind relying on the unofficial translation again, given how good it is.

Quote:

Why is the Japanese raw so slow this week?

I don't know how public / well known this is but Kodansha cracked down on raw scans in recent days, putting strong pressure on prominent raw release providers. Although CG is released in Shônen Sunday (i.e. Shogakukan), it was also affected by the general panic. The less popular a comic is, the harder it will be to find sources for raw scans for a while. And Cross Game is obviously not as popular/requested as huge Shônen Jump franchises, so...

~unrelated to the current storyline~

Here is one thing I was wondering about: I can't really remember if this was addressed in the manga so far but do we know anything about Wakaba's gift list for Kô? I remember the two alarm clocks but did we either get the information that she made her own list for Kô's birthday? It would fit her character completely.

From the "Kô is Risa's slave for a day" episode/chapter, we can suspect that Aoba is at list partially aware about Kô completing his list. I would not be surprised if we found out around the end of the manga that, first out of obligation/remorse toward her sister and now out of affection/love for Kô, Aoba is secretly completing Wakaba's list for Kô but (currently) does not intend to give him the gifts... or even being caught dead with the list.

It would fit the symetric personalities and it's quite romantic but also naive at the same time, which is a flavor Adachi likes to display about teenage romance.

joeboygo · 2009-09-16, 06:07

I subscribe to Shounen Sunday through an import service, but it gets to me a week and a half later than the original release. I'm an avid follower of three series on it, and I like the large format print on the weekly. But I'm too impatient to wait, and so I rely on various sites for scans of the raws, which usually hit the web around late Monday night pacific. This week's Kekkaishi raw has been out several hours as of this writing, but I'm still waiting for Conan and Cross Game. I can't freakin sleep until I see them. It's going to be rough day at work later.

Fish, it should intrigue you to remember that the final item on Waka's wish list is an engagement ring. I think Aoba knows about the list ether because she saw Waka writing it up, or because she has been inside Kou's room on more than one occasion. Remember thats where Senda caught her changing into Kou's shirt. Plot-wise, the gift list is significant because Adachi has made much of Kou's postumous effort to complete it that it's now only fair for the readers to expect to see and be shown when and how the list will be completed.

A more interesting topic to explore, now that you've brought it up, is WHY Kou continues to complete the list. I've read it said so many times how this evinces that Kou still carries a torch for Waka, but I think this conclusion is too simplistic in light of the complex character Adachi has created in Kou. I have my own theories but I'd like to see others weigh in first. Is the true reason in any way connected to the fact that Aoba's dad is a widower? Such a detail doesn't normally happen by accident in an Adachi story, and it isn't crucial or even necessary to the plot for Aoba's mom to be dead unless Adachi meant a greater significance for it (compare this to Kou's mom, who is very much alive, but we hardly ever see her). We can intersperse this discussion with the latest game developments as soon as the blasted chapter comes out.

PS: As to Stephen's translation, I will personally vouch for its excellence. The guy is switching Japanese baseball slang to its American slang equivalent. How often does that happen? You must have noticed by now that a literal point-for-point translation will make absolutely no sense. I have one of those big Obunshas with onion skin pages, and there are verb usages in this manga that don't even show up there.

PPS: Now I remember. Aoba did see Waka writing up the gift list. She noticed the engagement ring at the end and expressed her disapproval. Waka then reassured her by saying it's far into the future (this statement is super-duper loaded-it implies Waka's certainty that Aoba's feelings towards Kou will eventually change, but hers will not). Akaishi knows about the list because he and Nakanishi are in Kou's room a lot.

BetoJR · 2009-09-16, 10:08

Well, I don't remember either of the boys ever actually seeing the list. It is not prominently displayed in his room, now is it?

As for why Kou still tries his best to complete the list... I cannot really say. I find it poignant and sad, but I can't really think of a good enough reason - unless it ends up having to do with Aoba. Like, her being the recipient of the 20th birthday present, or something.

Proto · 2009-09-16, 10:14

I doubt he has been thinking of Aoba as a replacement all these years though.

It doesn't have to be anything complicated. Honouring the death and their memory seems good enough for me.

ac195 · 2009-09-16, 10:41

It could also be seen as a coping method/ritual.

Diedrupo · 2009-09-16, 10:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Proto

I doubt he has been thinking of Aoba as a replacement all these years though.

Yeah, Kou hasn't showed any real romantic interest in Aoba at all the entire series, which is why it'll be really annoying, but very much Adachi-like, if they hook up at the very end.

Quote:

It could also be seen as a coping method/ritual.

This. And he's using Akane as a coping method as well. Pretty twisted stuff. I love it, haha.

Proto · 2009-09-16, 10:59

Kou may not be the most obvious guy out there so it may be a little fuzzy, however I think it is a little too much of a stretch to say that he has no romantic interest whatsoever. Heck, refer to the chapter where they said he excelled at lying, do you think the reader is exempt from that given how often they break the 4th wall?

Diedrupo · 2009-09-16, 11:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Proto

Kou may not be the most obvious guy out there so it may be a little fuzzy, however I think it is a little too much of a stretch to say that he has no romantic interest whatsoever. Heck, refer to the chapter where they said he excelled at lying, do you think the reader is exempt from that given how often they break the 4th wall?

I think that was the one single time that Adachi laid out a hint to Kou's feelings (and Aoba's) in the entire series. Which is really frustrating, as in his other recent works (and i emphasis recent here, so as to exclude Miyuki, where Adachi really fucked up in), there is obvious buildup and obvious interactions that become more romantic over time. Here, it's just two close friends who are being pushed together by the author.

Proto · 2009-09-16, 11:12

It may have different interpretations for each person though. Adachi has made a point to remark that this is a "my second love" type of story as other people have mentioned, where both of the participants have a heavy past that dramatically warp their personal dynamics, as to what they would be if they had just meet each other recently. The characters obviously lie to themselves and hide their feelings in a not-so-obvious-look-at-me-im-a-tsundere kind of way, which makes the whole thing more human.

The whole point is that they relationship has gone from pseudo-rivals-to i pseudo hate you-to mutual respect, to strained friendship to plain admiration, with a lot, a lot of overlapping of all the stages. This makes their relationship difficult to read, but that does not mean that it precludes us to discover subtle romantic hints here and there. (heck, if you take it from a in universe POV it's kind of obvious for everyone and their cat except for the 2 involved persons. What's more, from the latest developments it'd seem even them have caught the hints). From my point of view, while I have liked Adachi's more straightforward take on romance in some in his past works, I don't mind the way he has chosen to present his characters in Cross Game. On the contrary, I think this series is superior in that respect to his previous works, but that's just my humble opinion.

BetoJR · 2009-09-16, 12:08

I believe anyone advocating Kou has no feelings (romantic or whatever) for Aoba, doesn't remember the whole "umbrella" scene, way back when her cousin was first introduced.

Also, I never said Kou had to have feelings for Aoba ever since he was a kid. But... I wouldn't put it past him, tho.

joeboygo · 2009-09-16, 12:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by BetoJR

Well, I don't remember either of the boys ever actually seeing the list. It is not prominently displayed in his room, now is it?

As for why Kou still tries his best to complete the list... I cannot really say. I find it poignant and sad, but I can't really think of a good enough reason - unless it ends up having to do with Aoba. Like, her being the recipient of the 20th birthday present, or something.

It is still taped to the wall where Waka herself put it six years ago. If you go into his room, you won't miss it.

Edit: I'm waiting for Fish's opinion before I say anymore, beause he was the one who started this. It is possible that the reason Kou may have had to stick wth the list in the beginning is not the same reason now - the gifts are getting more expensive, and Kou had to think about whether he was going to continue. If I recall, he said something like "my finances are in trouble" or something to that effect.

The Rumblefish · 2009-09-16, 19:58

Proto's post #494 sums up my point of view regarding Kô's demonstration of feelings for Aoba. We have had several clues that Kô cares deeply and genuinely for Aoba, even if you put aside romantic considerations and the teenage hormones kicking in. Kô might not often display genuine romantic interest but an important part of their couple's dynamic is that at this point in the story, other characters are strongly hinting that they are the oblivious type. And as Proto mentioned, some scenes do tell us Kô and Aoba are not so blind about how much their relationship has changed in the last three years. One must also remember how much Wakaba's memory is weighting on both kids' minds.

In short, I am slightly surprised by Diedrupo's comment but I suppose we all chime in our own sensibility and personal past experiences in this type of college love story. As a result, I can understand that somebody would perceive Kô's attitude very differently depending on their own experience. I went through a couple of similar halfway-oblivious romances in my youth so I completely relate to both kids' behaviors.

Quote:

I'm waiting for Fish's opinion before I say anymore, beause he was the one who started this.

Well, err... I was rather wondering about a potential list for Kô on Wakaba's side. I must admit I did not mean to start a discussion about Kô's list.

My impression has always been that Kô felt following the list was the proper way to honor the passing of Wakaba. You have to remember he decided to honor this when he was still very young. This promise is probably an primordial aspect of his childhood. Furthermore, the list ends when Kô is 20 no matter what since his birthday is the same day as Wakaba's. So he knows (if only on a subconsicous level) that putting a closure to this commitment will also be a sign of him reaching adulthood. In Japan, true majority comes at 21. Kô's first day as an adult will also be the first birthday without any physical commitment to Wakaba.

No news yet regarding the new chapter...

I am off to Japan tomorrow. I swear, if the situation has not improved by then, I'll find a way to scan the raw myself over the weekend. (By the way, I checked the FAQs and stickied topics but I am still not quite sure I understand how exactly "open" we can be about discussing the specific raw issue, so please tell me if I am stepping over the line here.)

golthin · 2009-09-16, 20:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diedrupo

Kou hasn't showed any real romantic interest in Aoba at all the entire series, which is why it'll be really annoying, but very much Adachi-like, if they hook up at the very end.

actually, he had a little streak of unconcious jealousy in an episode. It is pretty much the same way that his relationship with wakaba was, he didn't know he loved her that "way" till she was dead.

joeboygo · 2009-09-16, 20:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Rumblefish

Well, err... I was rather wondering about a potential list for Kô on Wakaba's side. I must admit I did not mean to start a discussion about Kô's list.

My impression has always been that Kô felt following the list was the proper way to honor the passing of Wakaba. You have to remember he decided to honor this when he was still very young. This promise is probably an primordial aspect of his childhood. Furthermore, the list ends when Kô is 20 no matter what since his birthday is the same day as Wakaba's. So he knows (if only on a subconsicous level) that putting a closure to this commitment will also be a sign of him reaching adulthood. In Japan, true majority comes at 21. Kô's first day as an adult will also be the first birthday without any physical commitment to Wakaba.

Oh, sorry for misunderstanding. I guess I kinda misread your intention because that's a short discussion right there - there isn't such a list and I'm not sure how it would fit into the story if there was.

But since we're talking about it already, I think the root of the difficulty most of us here encounter in trying to comprehend Kou's adherence to the gift list lies in trying to approach it from a Christian or Jewish perspective. The characters Cross Game are obviously adherents of some form of Shinto animism, so their attitudes towards death and the afterlife would differ slightly from ours. You can tell from the shrine to Waka at her house that they observe ancestor worship, and the gift list is a stylized form of this practice by Kou. The bell, the funerary portrait and the offering of grave goods in the shrine at Waka's house are mirrrored in the alarm clocks, the photo pinned to the bulletin board and, of course, the box of gifts in Kou's room - it's his own little shrine to her. When you view it that way, suddenly it doesn't feel so wierd or creepy at all and seems perfectly consistent with the way the Japanese venerate their dead.

But that doesn't answer all the questions about the posthumous gifts. I think the key to understanding Kou's motivation may lie in two conversations he had: the first one was with Ichiyo and the second was with Waka's dad, in front of the family burial plot. I'll get into all that later when I get home, but right now I have to get out of the office because it's been a long day.

Have a nice time in Japan. I myself will be going in November for about three weeks.

DanielSong39 · 2009-09-16, 22:00

While Aoba is not quite as overtly hostile to Koh as she was in the past - there's still something that just doesn't feel right. They seem too stiff and uncomfortable; there's a critical element missing - that "it" factor.

Wakaba and Koh had it. They didn't need to say "I like you" or try hard to be honest to each other - it's something that came naturally and openly. They knew they liked each other, everyone else knew they liked each other, and they were free to be themselves and enjoy each others' company. And though Wakaba died in tragic fashion at a young age, she managed to set a bar that Aoba hasn't been able to clear, despite having advantages of time, age, and lack of competition. No matter what Aoba does at this point, she will be second best.

That's why I just can't root for Aoba. Koh deserves someone who is better suited for him - someone who is honest and open and has a bright personality. Aoba may have other good qualities but I don't think she's his "type". There will always be a level of awkwardness that will never go away, one that was present from the very beginning of the story.

I'm probably hoping in vain but I'm rooting for a "no-girl" ending. Of all the remaining girls, I think Momiji fits the archetype the best but she's a bit young - Koh will have to wait 10 years before it's possible. But maybe it's for the best - after all, isn't high school a bit early to make life-long decisions about love?

2009-09-15, 08:28	Link #482
Bambi Member Join Date: Oct 2008	Looks like pitchers e-peen measuring chapter 158km/s vs 150km/s __________________

2009-09-16, 06:07	Link #487
joeboygo mechaii Join Date: Jul 2009 Age: 44	I subscribe to Shounen Sunday through an import service, but it gets to me a week and a half later than the original release. I'm an avid follower of three series on it, and I like the large format print on the weekly. But I'm too impatient to wait, and so I rely on various sites for scans of the raws, which usually hit the web around late Monday night pacific. This week's Kekkaishi raw has been out several hours as of this writing, but I'm still waiting for Conan and Cross Game. I can't freakin sleep until I see them. It's going to be rough day at work later. Fish, it should intrigue you to remember that the final item on Waka's wish list is an engagement ring. I think Aoba knows about the list ether because she saw Waka writing it up, or because she has been inside Kou's room on more than one occasion. Remember thats where Senda caught her changing into Kou's shirt. Plot-wise, the gift list is significant because Adachi has made much of Kou's postumous effort to complete it that it's now only fair for the readers to expect to see and be shown when and how the list will be completed. A more interesting topic to explore, now that you've brought it up, is WHY Kou continues to complete the list. I've read it said so many times how this evinces that Kou still carries a torch for Waka, but I think this conclusion is too simplistic in light of the complex character Adachi has created in Kou. I have my own theories but I'd like to see others weigh in first. Is the true reason in any way connected to the fact that Aoba's dad is a widower? Such a detail doesn't normally happen by accident in an Adachi story, and it isn't crucial or even necessary to the plot for Aoba's mom to be dead unless Adachi meant a greater significance for it (compare this to Kou's mom, who is very much alive, but we hardly ever see her). We can intersperse this discussion with the latest game developments as soon as the blasted chapter comes out. PS: As to Stephen's translation, I will personally vouch for its excellence. The guy is switching Japanese baseball slang to its American slang equivalent. How often does that happen? You must have noticed by now that a literal point-for-point translation will make absolutely no sense. I have one of those big Obunshas with onion skin pages, and there are verb usages in this manga that don't even show up there. PPS: Now I remember. Aoba did see Waka writing up the gift list. She noticed the engagement ring at the end and expressed her disapproval. Waka then reassured her by saying it's far into the future (this statement is super-duper loaded-it implies Waka's certainty that Aoba's feelings towards Kou will eventually change, but hers will not). Akaishi knows about the list because he and Nakanishi are in Kou's room a lot. Last edited by joeboygo; 2009-09-16 at 07:09.

2009-09-16, 10:14	Link #489
Proto Knowledge is the solution Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: St. Louis, MO Age: 39	I doubt he has been thinking of Aoba as a replacement all these years though. It doesn't have to be anything complicated. Honouring the death and their memory seems good enough for me. __________________ How to play Japanese games in Linux

2009-09-16, 10:59	Link #492
Proto Knowledge is the solution Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: St. Louis, MO Age: 39	Kou may not be the most obvious guy out there so it may be a little fuzzy, however I think it is a little too much of a stretch to say that he has no romantic interest whatsoever. Heck, refer to the chapter where they said he excelled at lying, do you think the reader is exempt from that given how often they break the 4th wall? __________________ How to play Japanese games in Linux

2009-09-16, 11:12	Link #494
Proto Knowledge is the solution Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: St. Louis, MO Age: 39	It may have different interpretations for each person though. Adachi has made a point to remark that this is a "my second love" type of story as other people have mentioned, where both of the participants have a heavy past that dramatically warp their personal dynamics, as to what they would be if they had just meet each other recently. The characters obviously lie to themselves and hide their feelings in a not-so-obvious-look-at-me-im-a-tsundere kind of way, which makes the whole thing more human. The whole point is that they relationship has gone from pseudo-rivals-to i pseudo hate you-to mutual respect, to strained friendship to plain admiration, with a lot, a lot of overlapping of all the stages. This makes their relationship difficult to read, but that does not mean that it precludes us to discover subtle romantic hints here and there. (heck, if you take it from a in universe POV it's kind of obvious for everyone and their cat except for the 2 involved persons. What's more, from the latest developments it'd seem even them have caught the hints). From my point of view, while I have liked Adachi's more straightforward take on romance in some in his past works, I don't mind the way he has chosen to present his characters in Cross Game. On the contrary, I think this series is superior in that respect to his previous works, but that's just my humble opinion. __________________ How to play Japanese games in Linux Last edited by Proto; 2009-09-17 at 11:48.

2009-09-15, 12:00	Link #483
poko-kun Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2007	Anyone has LJ account? I just found this community http://community.livejournal.com/clover_cafe/ It just opened, but looks promising.

2009-09-15, 16:30	Link #484
joeboygo mechaii Join Date: Jul 2009 Age: 44	Goldangit! I can't read Chinese. Why is the Japanese raw so slow this week?

2009-09-15, 21:12	Link #485
poko-kun Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2007	chinese scanlation can be faster than raw... most of the time.

2009-09-16, 10:41	Link #490
ac195 Koh nara dekiru!!! Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: August 17th - 31st	It could also be seen as a coping method/ritual.

2009-09-16, 22:00	Link #500
DanielSong39 Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2005	While Aoba is not quite as overtly hostile to Koh as she was in the past - there's still something that just doesn't feel right. They seem too stiff and uncomfortable; there's a critical element missing - that "it" factor. Wakaba and Koh had it. They didn't need to say "I like you" or try hard to be honest to each other - it's something that came naturally and openly. They knew they liked each other, everyone else knew they liked each other, and they were free to be themselves and enjoy each others' company. And though Wakaba died in tragic fashion at a young age, she managed to set a bar that Aoba hasn't been able to clear, despite having advantages of time, age, and lack of competition. No matter what Aoba does at this point, she will be second best. That's why I just can't root for Aoba. Koh deserves someone who is better suited for him - someone who is honest and open and has a bright personality. Aoba may have other good qualities but I don't think she's his "type". There will always be a level of awkwardness that will never go away, one that was present from the very beginning of the story. I'm probably hoping in vain but I'm rooting for a "no-girl" ending. Of all the remaining girls, I think Momiji fits the archetype the best but she's a bit young - Koh will have to wait 10 years before it's possible. But maybe it's for the best - after all, isn't high school a bit early to make life-long decisions about love?