[Manga] Chapter 465 Discussion

[AuroraFlash]

Originally Posted by james0246

Would the villagers hold Naruto responsible if he had simply let Nagato go (and Nagato did not immediatly die)? Yes, of course they would. This is a group of people that "killed" Kakashi's father because he failed an important mission, and they ostracized a young boy simply because he was the prison for a demon. So, of course they would have sought Naruto's death for not giving them some form of revenge.

Kishimoto undoubtedly realzed this, which is why he did kill of Nagato, and to sweeten the deal (and to prove, within the universe at least, that good deeds do have good rewards) Nagato brought back everyone that had died, effectively making Naruto's decision look like the absolute best course of action possible (while I certainly believe that diplomacy is the best option, the Nagato finale takes this to the extreme).

Good and interesting point there. "What would have happened if...?" I thought you would not ask such questions, and in fact you don't. You simply answer them, but this question is hard to answer. Naruto saved the village and saved the Hokage. His softness is something hey might not have tolerated to some point and he might have ended up unreputed respectively dishonored by the village, but it might aswell have happened that he would simply not be praised and some guy like Danzou would be famous because he clamps down on things.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by james0246

Would the villagers hold Naruto responsible if he had simply let Nagato go (and Nagato did not immediatly die)? Yes, of course they would. This is a group of people that "killed" Kakashi's father because he failed an important mission, and they ostracized a young boy simply because he was the prison for a demon. So, of course they would have sought Naruto's death for not giving them some form of revenge.

Kishimoto undoubtedly realzed this, which is why he did kill of Nagato, and to sweeten the deal (and to prove, within the universe at least, that good deeds do have good rewards) Nagato brought back everyone that had died, effectively making Naruto's decision look like the absolute best course of action possible (while I certainly believe that diplomacy is the best option, the Nagato finale takes this to the extreme).

I was thinking of that too but I wished Kishimoto would capitalize on it instead of avoiding it altogether. Something like Nagato explaining it to Naruto so Naruto Naruto has no choice but to kill him (which in turn would fuck Naruto up considerably and explain why he's acting such a pathetic loser now.)

[mahbod]

Naruto: Rasengan
sasuke: Susanoo
naruto : Wtf? Balance please
fans: Yeah i agree balance:
Kishimoto : Stfu newbs this is not a game its a story and this is how it goes retards

[Akachou]

I wonder if Naruto will truly understand that the world is more important than Sasuke. This is something they actually have in common. Both – Naruto and Sasuke overestimate Sasuke's importance. In a way, Sasuke has become a role model and even Shikamaru said that they would eventually avenge Sasuke's death, but then again, Sasuke is nothing you could possibly defend now. He's clearly a villain and he's about to destroy every chance to survive by the help of others. Nobody who is accepted by the ninja world can help Sasuke now, not even Naruto.

[ZGoten]

Originally Posted by Akachou

I wonder if Naruto will truly understand that the world is more important than Sasuke. This is something they actually have in common. Both – Naruto and Sasuke overestimate Sasuke's importance. In a way, Sasuke has become a role model and even Shikamaru said that they would eventually avenge Sasuke's death, but then again, Sasuke is nothing you could possibly defend now. He's clearly a villain and he's about to destroy every chance to survive by the help of others. Nobody who is accepted by the ninja world can help Sasuke now, not even Naruto.

Well, it´s not that easy. Naruto (Kishimoto) is one of the few persons in the world who know what a promise means. It´s a contract you are bound to unless the one the promise is given too frees you from it.
Until Sakura frees Naruto from his promise, he is forced to chase Sasuke ´till the end of the world.
On top of that there´s the whole idea of Naruto changing the world. I think he sees saving Sasuke as some kind of challenge he must master before he can attempt the greater task. He´s probably wondering: "How am I supposed to change the world, if I can´t even save a single friend of mine".

[Cub-Sama]

Originally Posted by ZGoten

"How am I supposed to change the world, if I can´t even save a single friend of mine".

Sasuke: Naruto...you wanted to be hokage right? Wouldn't the time spent chasing me better be spent training
Naruto: How can someone who can't even save their friend be Hokage

Wouldn't be surprised if he was thinking that.

Originally Posted by Akachou

I wonder if Naruto will truly understand that the world is more important than Sasuke. This is something they actually have in common. Both – Naruto and Sasuke overestimate Sasuke's importance. In a way, Sasuke has become a role model and even Shikamaru said that they would eventually avenge Sasuke's death, but then again, Sasuke is nothing you could possibly defend now. He's clearly a villain and he's about to destroy every chance to survive by the help of others. Nobody who is accepted by the ninja world can help Sasuke now, not even Naruto.

Thing is Sasuke isn't even a villain, the worse thing he has done is attack Killer Bee and even then Killer Bee survived everything else has been self defense against people trying their best to kill him. Thing is Sasuke is too arrogant and stupid to tell anyone and get them off his back the only person he will probably ever tell is Naruto.

Funny thing is Sasuke's revenge has done more good than bad because most of his targets are the enemies of Konoha as well: Danzou, Orochimaru, Itachi, Madara.

[ZGoten]

Originally Posted by Cub-Sama

Sasuke: Naruto...you wanted to be hokage right? Wouldn't the time spent chasing me better be spent training
Naruto: How can someone who can't even save their friend be Hokage

Wouldn't be surprised if he was thinking that.

Hey, I´m not trying to be something special with my replies. Of course this is an obvious thought of Naruto. That´s one more reason for me to state it.

[Killer Bee]

Originally Posted by james0246

Since I was tired last time, here is a full response...



You have me interested, now what will you say next...



...Oh, never mind then, you lost me right off the bat...

Only you could equate not being overpowered to having a bijuu or some other malevolent spirit .

Well, if its a necessary adjustment so that Sasuke could be the opponent at the endgame ... then no, he isn't overpowered. He is simply modified so that the combat would be competitive and interesting. I understand how you'd be lost there.

Originally Posted by james0246

Not necessarily. Naruto hates the Kyuubi, and I do not see how even the total subjugation of the beast would change Naruto opinion. Rather, if you analyze Naruto as a character that is righting all of Konoha's wrongs (Pain, Hyuuga slavery, Madara and the Uchiha Clan, etc), then the Kyuubi becomes a task/opponent Naruto must face and defeat for the sake of Konoha - were the 4th failed, Naruto must succeed.

That being said, you appear to be forgetting one key detail: the Sahringan/MS already controls the Kyuubi. So, it stands to reason that anything less (from Naruto) than complete subjugation of the beast would result in Sasuke sealing off the power. Additionally, since the MS is meant to control the Kyuubi anyway, it seems probable that the individual techniques (Tsukuyomi, Amaterasu and Susano'o) are already powerful enough without needing the help of a foreign power source/demon/spirit/etc.

Well maybe you can't see it, but that doesn't mean it isn't so. Naruto's contempt for the Kyuubi stems from the fact that it has used him to hurt those he swore to protect. That wouldn't be the case anymore if he had complete control. As it were, Naruto unleashed the 9 tails against Pain when he thought that was his only option. Sure, it can be argued that he weak and easily influenced at that point, but I would disagree and say that he was merely without hope, which his father then later gave to him.

There has been some controversy as to whether the MS can actually control a tailed beast. If the MS could in fact do so, then wouldn't Itachi could have rounded up all the beasts himself without a fight. If that were so, Sasuke could have easily defeated the 8tails, which he obviously couldn't. We have never actually seen an instance where the MS has controlled a bijuu. We have seen Sasuke enter Naruto's mind and suppress the influence of an already sealed and powerless kyuubi, but that was it.

Originally Posted by james0246

I postulated something smilar a year or two ago on NF (and others over the years have made similar hypothesis), but decided that the theory was too arm-chaired. But, I kept it on the backburner in case something new had come up. But, now that we have the info on the Sage of Six Paths, I find it more unlikely that there is any real "pressence" behind the Sharingan, but rather this generational hatred seems to be the specter that surrounds the Uchiha Clan.

It's still an interesting idea you (we) have come up with .

Oh really? Well kudos to you and a few others! I'm sure many people have backburner, never-before-mentioned ideas that are only brought up once its safe and not too "arm-chaired". LMAO

Originally Posted by james0246

Minato defeated the Kyuubi...and Madara and Hashirama had the ability to control/defeat it. So, even if Naruto does become supremely powerful, that doesn't make him undefeatable.

And only you could equate Minato committing suicide in order to merely trap the kyuubi as a "win". I don't think Naruto would be "unbeatable". I simply meant that no one currently in the manga would stand a chance against Naruto the Pain slayer. Perhaps someone new will be introduced or one of the younger generation will surpass Naruto, but as of right now no one outside of Sasuke and Madara stands a chance. And Naruto doesn't even have control of the bijuu yet.

Originally Posted by james0246

The first part I fully agree with. Sasuke's hate empowers his techniques. It not only makes sense, it is more or less canon (we all know that will and intent matter more than physical power (this is Shounen after all), so Sasuke's powerful will enforcing his techniques makes perfect sense).

Well yes and no. Willpower isn't some sort of shounen trump card. There are limits. All the willpower in the world wouldn't allow Kiba to defeat Sasuke at this point.

Originally Posted by james0246

But, the second part of your statement is what is troubling. Why can't it simply be that Sasuke's rage, hate and pain causes him to fight more strongly and more powerfully than he would without the emotions. In other words, why does any external force have to exist to make him stronger when a more immediate and obvious answer (emotions influence power) exists?

To put it another way, berserker rages were once thought to be influenced by demons and other external forces, but, in reality, it is just an emotional frenzy certain very disturbed individuals can work themselves in to (drugs could also work, but that is getting a little to debatable for my point ).

It can be. Anything is possible. That's the point. I'm not trying to disqualify other possibilities. I'm just sharing backburner speculation before it becomes safe to do so.

Originally Posted by james0246

Considerng the fact that Sasuke told Juugo he was going to use some new moves, it seems that Sasuke had full knowledge of the various techniques. Hell, he even had names for everything.

Good point. Then I guess I can chalk it up to bad illustration of the emotions he was feeling at the time.

Originally Posted by james0246

Now this I like. This crates a greater and more justifiable reason for Sasuke having the CS/CS2 were before it was merely a tool for Sasuke to equal Naruto's bijuu, now it becomes an interesting device by which Sasuke is able to expand his hatred reserves .

I do aim to please.

Still, my only gripe at this point is Raikage. I won't forgive Kishi for making him seem like some non-thinking jackass who would sacrifice his hand on a whim when there were plenty of other options available. I really liked his character .. as minor a role as he might play. I understand that he was supposed to be the personification of impulsiveness, but that isn't the same as blatant stupidity. I can only imagine what kind of buffoonery Kishi has in store for 8tails.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Killer Bee

Well maybe you can't see it, but that doesn't mean it isn't so. Naruto's contempt for the Kyuubi stems from the fact that it has used him to hurt those he swore to protect. That wouldn't be the case anymore if he had complete control. As it were, Naruto unleashed the 9 tails against Pain when he thought that was his only option. Sure, it can be argued that he weak and easily influenced at that point, but I would disagree and say that he was merely without hope, which his father then later gave to him.

The Kyuubi hasn't really used him atleast not intentionally, but it is willing to hurt others, which is why he does hate the kyuubi.

Naruto didn't really unleash the kyuubi because he thought it was the only option. He was just really really pissed off. He hardly had any idea what was actually happening. (Chapter 439 Page 11)

Without hope can be the same as easily influenced.

There has been some controversy as to whether the MS can actually control a tailed beast. If the MS could in fact do so, then wouldn't Itachi could have rounded up all the beasts himself without a fight. If that were so, Sasuke could have easily defeated the 8tails, which he obviously couldn't. We have never actually seen an instance where the MS has controlled a bijuu. We have seen Sasuke enter Naruto's mind and suppress the influence of an already sealed and powerless kyuubi, but that was it.

The sharingan controlling a Bijuu and the sharingan controlling a Jinchikuuri are two different things. Killer Bee did explain why. (Chapter 413 Page 15)

[Ulquiorra]

Originally Posted by Cub-Sama

Thing is Sasuke isn't even a villain, the worse thing he has done is attack Killer Bee and even then Killer Bee survived everything else has been self defense against people trying their best to kill him. Thing is Sasuke is too arrogant and stupid to tell anyone and get them off his back the only person he will probably ever tell is Naruto.

Funny thing is Sasuke's revenge has done more good than bad because most of his targets are the enemies of Konoha as well: Danzou, Orochimaru, Itachi, Madara.

The Kage Summit stunt all but sealed his role as a villain. He's a villain and the most sought international criminal right now. Even those who were following him are starting to see the real Sasuke. Before Naruto could at least attempt to try and explain things for Sasuke. But Sasuke's actions are beyond words now.

As for Kirabi, If you attempt to capture an innocent which will result in their murder, then somehow they escape, that doesn't get you off the hook for attempted murder.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Killer Bee

Well, if its a necessary adjustment so that Sasuke could be the opponent at the endgame ... then no, he isn't overpowered. He is simply modified so that the combat would be competitive and interesting. I understand how you'd be lost there.

Sasuke simply with the MS/EMS (without outside interferrence) would be good enough...

In the end, I preffer this relatively simple explanation specifically because it is so simple. Instead of some unknown spirit thingie that has never once been hinted at in the past, we simply retain the knowledge that Sharingan/MS/EMS is real realy powerful (as we already knew) and Sasuke has amazing potential (again, we already knew that). Additionally, since the MS can control/disrupte the Kyuubi, that would mean that Naruto can only fight using his own strength, which in turn makes the battle far more personal than if one or both were using spirits/demons.

I don't want Kyuubi (or some amalgamation) to defeat Sasuke, and I do not want Naruto to defeat some spirit controlling Sasuke; I want Naruto to defeat Sasuke. Copping out and making Sasuke "evil" because of a spirit, rather than his own emotional turmoil (even in the possibility that said emotional turmoil could lead to being possessed), would completely destroy his character. I may not like Sasuke, but that doesn't mean I want his character development to be thrown under the bus.

Originally Posted by Killer Bee

There has been some controversy as to whether the MS can actually control a tailed beast. If the MS could in fact do so, then wouldn't Itachi could have rounded up all the beasts himself without a fight. If that were so, Sasuke could have easily defeated the 8tails, which he obviously couldn't. We have never actually seen an instance where the MS has controlled a bijuu. We have seen Sasuke enter Naruto's mind and suppress the influence of an already sealed and powerless kyuubi, but that was it.

Chapter 458 disagrees with you, as well as 385 (I think that was the chapter Itachi mentions how the MS controls the Kyuubi, please correct me if I am wrong). That being said, as Haak mentions, controlling a Jinchuuriki is not the same as controlling a Bijuu. The Bijuu seem to be fairly stupid without a host, so controlling them, especially with the abilities the MS offers, seems fairly easy (even if you doubt outright control, think of it like a circus performer controlling a Lion or Tiger: Susano'o is the body, Amaterasu is the whip/chair, and Tsukuyomi is the voice telling the beast what to do (yes, this is a very simplistic analogy, but it was the best I could come up with on my tea break )..

Originally Posted by Killer Bee

Oh really? Well kudos to you and a few others! I'm sure many people have backburner, never-before-mentioned ideas that are only brought up once its safe and not too "arm-chaired".

LOL, no need to get snippity . I brought up the issue simply because I found it funny that we stumbled upon very similar theories/ideas. I wasn't trying to be dismissive (though I did explain why I was reluctant to accept even my own idea), more nostalgic than anything.

Originally Posted by Killer Bee

Well yes and no. Willpower isn't some sort of shounen trump card. There are limits. All the willpower in the world wouldn't allow Kiba to defeat Sasuke at this point.

Obviously you haven't seen Gurren Laggen . Willpower alone will not solve everything, but willpower in cooperation with an intrinsically powerful tool? Now you're cooking with the good stuff .

Originally Posted by Killer Bee

It can be. Anything is possible. That's the point. I'm not trying to disqualify other possibilities.

Neither am I. I simply wish to point out discrepencies, etc, between possible theories and known facts.

[Supermutant]

Originally Posted by Hunter

Sasuke is obssessed with the idea of getting stronger to reach his goal but what he places over alll is the Uchiha clan in general, not his own strength.

I dunno. While I'm not sure if he's held himself as better or stronger than others, he certainly does like compare himself and place himself in a favorable light. His statements on his pain being greater, his being more special than Naruto, on having a more perfect defense... it is the way he likes to talk, even if it's not his defining trait.

[ChojinLocke]

He carries the Uchiha name since he is the last remaining Uchiha (apart from Madara). That means that the stronger he is the stronger in a sense the Uchiha clan is, so in a way he wants power to measure the Uchiha clan more favorably against all the other clans.

[That Other Ninja]

Originally Posted by ChojinLocke

He carries the Uchiha name since he is the last remaining Uchiha (apart from Madara). That means that the stronger he is the stronger in a sense the Uchiha clan is, so in a way he wants power to measure the Uchiha clan more favorably against all the other clans.

Dude... that's unnecessary projecting.

He wanted power for revenge and he pretty much got it after Itachi died. He's simply redirecting his revenge from his brother to Danzou.

[noven]

He's a revengeaholic.

He just can't live without revengeahol.

[Ulquiorra]

Does Sasuke still intend to destroy all of Konoha?

After Danzou, his target is all of Konoha, right? For instance, if he fought Naruto, Kakashi, and Yamato, or Shikamaru's group, he probably would not have simply move on like he did with Gaara and the Raikage. He would he tried to kill them since they are from Konoha.

[Waking_Dreamer]

Originally Posted by noven

He's a revengeaholic.

He just can't live without revengeahol.

lol. Then his only treatment is death!

[james0246]

^What are you talking about, Sasuke could always join Revengeaholics Anonymous...

[AuroraFlash]

Originally Posted by james0246

^What are you talking about, Sasuke could always join Revengeaholics Anonymous...

Yeah, of course he could! I think he's in really bad shape at the moment, because he's stuck with other revangaholics and his consumption of all that revengahol, hatanabis and stuff has increased dramatically. He has to do something about it.

Don' you worry, Doc Talkalot is on his way to save the day.

[Quzor]

Far be it from me to make a quick comparison, but lets examine the situation at the moment.

Sasuke: Fire, Lightning
Naruto: Wind

Sasuke: Sharingan/MS/EMS(?)
Naruto: Nature Chakra (Sage Mode)

Sasuke: Chidori (and all it's variations)
Naruto: Rasengan (and all it's variations)

My suspicion is that Sasuke still holds the advantage here on two fronts. He's got better chakra control via elemental mastery, and he's got abilities that Naruto has consistently struggled with since his first day of learning about them. When was the last time Naruto actually knew he was in a genjutsu, or avoided one, or broke free of one? When was the last time Naruto went up against someone with a definitive mastery of a particular chakra element? Certainly experience has to count for something when comparing these two, be this Shounen or not.

There seems to have been lots of discussion as to whether or not one is more powerful than the other, or how Kishi plans to balance them out for the big finale showdown, but I'd hazard a guess that, at this moment in the story, they're closer than they've ever been. We had a long period of flip-flop between one or the other being stronger, but now we're to the point where strength really can't factor in quite as much anymore. At this point, and at their levels, the better technician is the one who is going to win the day. We could still call Naruto tactless and impulsive, and we could still call Sasuke calculating but brash, but its plain to see how they've both matured in the time they've spent doing whatever they've been doing.

As a personal note, I'm excited to see where the progression of the two moves next. As I said, I feel like they're closer in ability than they have ever been in the story, but there are some interesting encounters ahead (Sasuke v. 5 Kages?), and we could end up seeing a dramatic shift which causes the resurfacing of the "Jesus, Sasuke is way too overpowered" arguments. Only time will tell.

Edit: Doc Talkalot never helps Sasuke. He's like so many insurance companies, billing for shit that you didn't want or need, and didn't help anyway.