The Final Romance Thread - How Not To Be Banned [Read Opening Post]

[Paladinoras]

Originally Posted by dec4rhapsody

Demo...I'm sorta freya-ed that Gauche has a sister (Mizuki Nana) who can't walk.
Kami-sama
Siscon is siscon...

Fufu, sorta off topic, do you guys like pairings because of their seiyuu?

In my case it is Xingke (Midorikawa) X Tianzi that reminds me of Seiran (Midorikawa) X Shuurei (or Ryuuki *gets shot*) from Saiunkoku Monogatari.

Not really. My favourite seiyuu is Horie Yui and Ami Koshimizu, and I generally think whether the characters they play are suitable for each other rather than the seiyuus.

[SonOfHeaven]

Originally Posted by dec4rhapsody

Can't help LOLing.
Fukuyama and Koshimizu in Tegamibachi as Gauche and Aria.

Naka no Hito (the person within) paro FTW!

That's interesting to say the least. I actually stated reading the manga last week.

[Nobodyman9]

Brought over from the Kallen thread. What do you think the romantic development ratio was between Lelouch and the three ladies: Kallen, Shirley, C.C. (and others if you wish) So for example we had a set amount of 100% of romantic development in total, but how was that dispersed among the three ladies? Here's my opinion for R1

Kallen: 30%
Shirley: 60%
C.C.: 10%

Here's my opinion for R2.

Kallen: 60%
Shirley:35%
C.C.: 5%

Now here's my opinion for the series in total

Kallen: 50%
Shirley: 45%
C.C.: 5%

Keep in mind I'm taking both quantity and quality into account. That is, the amount of scenes they each had and the meaningfulness behind them.

[Lolipopo]

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

Brought over from the Kallen thread. What do you think the romantic development ratio was between Lelouch and the three ladies: Kallen, Shirley, C.C. (and others if you wish) So for example we had a set amount of 100% of romantic development in total, but how was that dispersed among the three ladies? Here's my opinion for R1

Kallen: 30%
Shirley: 60%
C.C.: 10%

Here's my opinion for R2.

Kallen: 60%
Shirley:35%
C.C.: 5%

Now here's my opinion for the series in total

Kallen: 50%
Shirley: 45%
C.C.: 5%

Keep in mind I'm taking both quantity and quality into account. That is, the amount of scenes they each had and the meaningfulness behind them.

...How can you give Kallen a higher percent in the total if her ammount in R2+ R1 is less than the one you gave to Shirley ?

Now that's definitely not the same for me
In season 1 I can't even give some percents things since I didn't feel much of a romantic devellopment with Lelouch (and I was glad writers confirmed it was the case or they would have failed hard) so...

Yeah dunno.
Masquerade arc for Shirley, Tsundere part with Kallen...in a matter of interactions I'll give C.C. the upper end cause she got the Mao arc and the whole witch/warlock thing in the end.
But even there, no really romance sparkle so yeah in S1, I give up.

In R2 ? Ah !

Kallen : 80% (Cause everything is about discovering Lelouch, being saved by Lelouch and falling in love with Lelouch

That's it. Dunno, don't care about others. It was pretty fast.
It's either 10 each or 15 one and 5 the other. Take your pick.

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by Lolipopo

...How can you give Kallen a higher percent in the total if her ammount in R2+ R1 is less than the one you gave to Shirley ?

Yeah, I know this is kind of confusing, but assume, in my mind, that R2 counts for more than R1. As you said, R2 was more romance-heavy.

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

Brought over from the Kallen thread. What do you think the romantic development ratio was between Lelouch and the three ladies: Kallen, Shirley, C.C. (and others if you wish) So for example we had a set amount of 100% of romantic development in total, but how was that dispersed among the three ladies? Here's my opinion for R1

Kallen: 30%
Shirley: 60%
C.C.: 10%

Here's my opinion for R2.

Kallen: 60%
Shirley:35%
C.C.: 5%

Now here's my opinion for the series in total

Kallen: 50%
Shirley: 45%
C.C.: 5%

Keep in mind I'm taking both quantity and quality into account. That is, the amount of scenes they each had and the meaningfulness behind them.

For Season 1, I'd give C.C. more and Kallen less. As for R2...

I think a 3:4 ratio betwen Shirley and Kallen would be roughly accurate. The primary development of both were centered in their respective death/seperation scenes (Turns 13, 22), but Kallen edges Shirley out slightly but noticeably over the rest of the series by quantity.

I do think C.C.'s been undervalued though. Turn 15 was significant development, even if Turn 21 negated it. I'd approximate it to 10% C.C., 40% Shirley, 50% Kallen for R2 respectively, and 15% C.C., 40% Shirley, 45% Kallen for the show in general.

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

For Season 1, I'd give C.C. more and Kallen less. As for R2...

I think a 3:4 ratio betwen Shirley and Kallen would be roughly accurate. The primary development of both were centered in their respective death/seperation scenes (Turns 13, 22), but Kallen edges Shirley out slightly but noticeably over the rest of the series by quantity.

I do think C.C.'s been undervalued though. Turn 15 was significant development, even if Turn 21 negated it. I'd approximate it to 10% C.C., 40% Shirley, 50% Kallen for R2 respectively, and 15% C.C., 40% Shirley, 45% Kallen for the show in general.

Sounds like a fair assessment. The problem with me is that, as far as C.C. goes, I have the whole "Lelouch had no romantic attraction to C.C." line from the official guidebook in my mind, so it's hard for me to a lot of the scenes between them as romantic or that there was any truly deep romantic meaning behind them.

[Paladinoras]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

For Season 1, I'd give C.C. more and Kallen less. As for R2...

I think a 3:4 ratio betwen Shirley and Kallen would be roughly accurate. The primary development of both were centered in their respective death/seperation scenes (Turns 13, 22), but Kallen edges Shirley out slightly but noticeably over the rest of the series by quantity.
.

I don't get this... I mean, Kallen had a lot more memorable moments than Shirley in R2. The two moments of Shirlulu that was truly memorable is the Milly-retirement event thing, while the other...was her death. I forgot what Turn she died in, but one thing is for sure, Kalulu's epic kiss was after that. So was the BK's betrayal of Lelouch, and Kallen's one-girl-stand of personal loyalty to be with Lelouch. Even before her death, Kallen and Lelouch had more memorable moments, like when she got captured and Lelouch mobilized his whole friggin army to save her. Then when Kallen fell on top of Lelouch, who asked her to come back to Ashford with him after the war is over.

If she is not the highest probable canon mate, then god, for all we know, we might as well factor Suzaku or Rivalz in the equation.

[bladeofdarkness]

isnt it somewhat silly to try and assign percentages and probabilities when it comes to love ?

[Paladinoras]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

isnt it somewhat silly to try and assign percentages and probabilities when it comes to love ?

Pretty much. There is no real way to determine them...

But I need to uphold the truth, lol.

[Knightrunner]

the percentages and ratios are sores to my eyes

lets try how many pizza slices or teriyaki hamburgers

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

isnt it somewhat silly to try and assign percentages and probabilities when it comes to love ?

Perhaps you're right, but I thought it an interesting idea that might be good for some discussion. Actually, you have Loli to thank for planting the brain seed in my mind.

[Yami Sonozaki]

In my opinion, I give the biggest score to Shirley.
She was into Lulu from the begining of the series until the end (uhm, her end). There were quite a few romantic scenes between them, both in R1 and R2, and I think she was the best match for him in the end. Too bad she had to go like that.
The one on the 2nd spot is obviously Kallen, altough she didn't have so many romantic scenes with Lulu, or they weren't so deep as Shirley's.
C.C. is on the last spot because in the end she was just Lulu's acomplice, and as she lived for a few hundreds of years, she probably had other lovers as well in the past. I know they've kissed 2 or 3 times, but that's not enough <_<

[Paladinoras]

Originally Posted by Yami Sonozaki

In my opinion, I give the biggest score to Shirley.
She was into Lulu from the begining of the series until the end (uhm, her end). There were quite a few romantic scenes between them, both in R1 and R2, and I think she was the best match for him in the end.

Problem is, the feeling was never stated to be reciprocated. Lelouch was never shown to have thought of her as nothing more than a really close friend. They had their moments, sure, but by R2, they barely spent enough time together for any real romantic development. And the only problem I can see with the whole relationship is that...Shirley does not truly understand Lelouch. Lelouch never allowed her to really get to know the Zero side of him. Shirley loves Lelouch...but can she love Zero? Although granted, it is by Lulu's own volition that Shirley was excluded from his other life.

[Yami Sonozaki]

Originally Posted by Paladinoras

Problem is, the feeling was never stated to be reciprocated. Lelouch was never shown to have thought of her as nothing more than a really close friend. They had their moments, sure, but by R2, they barely spent enough time together for any real romantic development. And the only problem I can see with the whole relationship is that...Shirley does not truly understand Lelouch. Lelouch never allowed her to really get to know the Zero side of him. Shirley loves Lelouch...but can she love Zero? Although granted, it is by Lulu's own volition that Shirley was excluded from his other life.

Well, why would Kallen or C.C. get a bigger score than Shirley did then? Kallen had a few encounters, but not really romantic ones, and C.C. just kissed him 2 or 3 times, and probably slept with him too, but there's nothing romantic in that.
Lelouch didn't want to keep Shirley so close to him because he loved her, and didn't want her to get involved with the dangerous things he was doing. That's proof enough he cared for her quite a bit.

[Lolipopo]

Originally Posted by Yami Sonozaki

Well, why would Kallen or C.C. get a bigger score than Shirley did then? Kallen had a few encounters, but not really romantic ones, and C.C. just kissed him 2 or 3 times, and probably slept with him too, but there's nothing romantic in that.
Lelouch didn't want to keep Shirley so close to him because he loved her, and didn't want her to get involved with the dangerous things he was doing. That's proof enough he cared for her quite a bit.

Ah ? Kallen and Lelouch didn't have this much of romantic thing ? You mean, they didn't get a date so that Lelouch could geass a random guy and trump Rolo ?
Let's see...we have those teasing, from Lelouch's part (about her body, about their relationship...), we have Lelouch seeking comfort of her so, not forcefully romantic but really close anyway since this kind of comfort..well i'm not going to make an art to explain that.
We have her and him in this tower, her topping him, and both of them not even embarassed by the whole situation (as long as no one see them, that's fine to top each other) , while Lelouch is asking her if she will come back to Ashford with him when everytging is over (yeah. With my shipper glasses I would compare that to a proposal, a cliche proposal. And even without those, this scene screams romance).
We have after what Lelouch sending hiw whole army after her, while it was not a smart move, only because of his own feelings (Diethrad said that, not me), we have him considering her as one of his most important persons when he learns Suzaku caught her, we have him trading his life so she will be safe in episode 19, we have him asking for a last moment with her in episode 22, we have him thinking of a memory implying a date/dance with her (and not only that...) when he is supposed to think about a dear memory of his.

So...no romantice moment ? I can hardly see more romantic moments than what they got in Geass. And for me it was way more powerful that those 5845955985 moments which are happening in shojo manga between the girl and her guy.

So...yeah. I disagree.
And C.C. kissed him to lock and unlock his memories. And she never slept with hiom, no, or you can say he slept with Suzaku as well, and had an orgy with Schneizel, Cornelia and Euphie when he was a child.

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by Yami Sonozaki

Well, why would Kallen or C.C. get a bigger score than Shirley did then? Kallen had a few encounters, but not really romantic ones, and C.C. just kissed him 2 or 3 times, and probably slept with him too, but there's nothing romantic in that.
Lelouch didn't want to keep Shirley so close to him because he loved her, and didn't want her to get involved with the dangerous things he was doing. That's proof enough he cared for her quite a bit.

no offence ment to sheirly
but what exactly would lelouch GAIN from having her involved with him in his life as zero ?
its not simply that he didnt want to risk her by having her involved with his life
she has no PLACE in that part of his life
saying he pushed her away and that its a proof that he loved her, ignores that fact that she would have nothing to contribute if he DIDNT push her away

and i would argue that most of the interactions he had with kallen in season 2 had romantic undertones to them

[Paladinoras]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

no offence ment to sheirly
but what exactly would lelouch GAIN from having her involved with him in his life as zero ?
its not simply that he didnt want to risk her by having her involved with his life
she has no PLACE in that part of his life
saying he pushed her away and that its a proof that he loved her, ignores that fact that she would have nothing to contribute if he DIDNT push her away

and i would argue that most of the interactions he had with kallen in season 2 had romantic undertones to them

I always thought that Lelouch pushing Shirley away from his Zero life is more of an act of guilt than love. After all, his actions as Zero caused the indirect death of her father. I am pretty sure Lelouch stated it sometime in the show, he has done so many bad things to Shirley that it would be pure evil to drag her into Zero's life. I am not saying I understand Lelouch, hell, nobody does, but that sure as hell ain't love. And caring about someone does not necessarily equal love, friendship can also cause that...

And hell, the makers of the show certainly implied that Kallen was his most probable canon mate. Other than C.C, who was shot down by the makers of the show as a canon girlfriend soon after the show ended, he spent the most time with her, and had all of his main romantic development with her.

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

no offence ment to sheirly
but what exactly would lelouch GAIN from having her involved with him in his life as zero ?
its not simply that he didnt want to risk her by having her involved with his life
she has no PLACE in that part of his life
saying he pushed her away and that its a proof that he loved her, ignores that fact that she would have nothing to contribute if he DIDNT push her away

and i would argue that most of the interactions he had with kallen in season 2 had romantic undertones to them

On a strategic level, of course Shirley would contribute nothing. That isn't really the point though. C.C.'s (flawed) advice is directly implied in both instances of Lelouch distancing himself away from her, and there would certainly be meaning in Shirley's presence beside him. The idea that Shirley has 'no place' in the part of Lelouch's life that is Zero is too black and white.

(Why must Lelouch push away those who are dear to him? It's not because he's an 'ally of justice'. It's because he's an enemy of the world.)

Originally Posted by Paladinoras

I always thought that Lelouch pushing Shirley away from his Zero life is more of an act of guilt than love. After all, his actions as Zero caused the indirect death of her father. I am pretty sure Lelouch stated it sometime in the show, he has done so many bad things to Shirley that it would be pure evil to drag her into Zero's life. I am not saying I understand Lelouch, hell, nobody does, but that sure as hell ain't love. And caring about someone does not necessarily equal love, friendship can also cause that...

And hell, the makers of the show certainly implied that Kallen was his most probable canon mate. Other than C.C, who was shot down by the makers of the show as a canon girlfriend soon after the show ended, he spent the most time with her, and had all of his main romantic development with her.

As a Shirlulu shipper, I've always completely rejected the 'push away those you hold dear' line as a denial of love from the start. Yes, Lelouch wiping Shirley's memories, and other examples of pushing her away from him, are driven by guilt. Even this guilt, however, is certainly specific to Shirley, grounded in his care for her. However, it is indeed the opposite, Lelouch's examples of accepting Shirley and keeping her close to him, that more convincingly represent love. I.e., returning Shirley's kiss, and jumping off a building to save her.

Your belief that Code Geass' creators 'certainly implied' that Kallen was Lelouch's most canon romantic interest is, however, biased. Try to understand: your belief in and preference for your preferred pairing may certainly be justified, but there is good reason why Shirley shippers are still around and proud today. You shouldn't make such presumptious statements. 'Time spent' with C.C. or Kallen isn't all that meaningful compared to the sheer impact and inspiration Shirley had on Lelouch, and as for romantic development strictly from Lelouch's end, Shirley had just as much, if not more, than Kallen (though Kallen did have more romantic development towards Lelouch from her perspective).

[GundamFan0083]

Hmmm, If I were Lelouch, and I had the power to Change the World; which girl would I choose?

Not that anyone gives a ratt's arse, but here's my take on the "ships" of Code Geass.

Lelouch appears to have a similar mindset as that of his father from what I see re-watching the series on DVD (well up to R2 episode 07: the Abandoned Mask).
What I mean by that is that Lelouch is very passionate in what he believes and is driven by his emotions rather than pure cold logic.
Lelouch doesn't appear to be the type of guy who settles down with one woman.
He's sort of like a Captain Kirk, James Bond, or other larger-than-life Macho-type masculine figure (even Light Yagami had multiple women ).

Thus I think that he had feelings (implied in the anime, not official in the R2 Guidebook) for all three women (CC, Shirley, Kallen) as various parts of the show.

The canon R2 Guidebook states that Lelouch only loved Nunnally and Euphemia, but that doesn't jive with the anime IMHO.

The guidebook has a lot of good information on vehicles, general character reviews, nice pictures, and a decent series overview, but it states that Lelouch saw CC as only a accomplace, Shirley as a friend, and Kallen as a comrade (he rejected her according to the R2 Guidebook, and no Celis Galvae's translation is not correct IMO).
That seems stupid to me, so I reject the canon as far as Lelouch's love life is concerned.

So for me the guidebook is basically useless for determining who Lelouch was in love with (if anybody).
Thus (as Blade pointed out to me elsewhere, and I agree with him in part) we must use the anime.

I've read what you all think, and I can respect it (all of the ships, including the CC fans), but I'm not convinced he only loved Kallen, or Shirley, or CC.

I think being the troubled teenager that he was (as Zetsuo Bunny said here on the Lelouch thread) Lelouch didn't pick any one of the three women that were close to him.
I think he wanted them "a la carte" because it fits his personality and his ego.

People say he wasn't boinking CC.
I disagree (I know officially he is a virgin but I cry BS!)
Lelouch was a 17 year old, physically fit, egocentric, hormone-raging, stressed out male.
Perhaps its just a Phalis thing, but believe me, if CC gave him the chance he'd have done her in a New York minute.
But love her? Not so sure about that.
I think he'd use her for sex and maybe come to like her as a friend under different circumstances, but I'm not sure Lelouch would love her without some other simuli to move him in that direction.

Shirley I think he'd be more suave with...make her a real girlfriend had she lived.
Again, would he love her?
Not sure.
Why?
Because Lelouch is so egocentric that I find it hard to believe he could love anyone romantically for very long.
I think Shirley had the best chance of being with Lelouch, but she died so that kinda put an end to that.

And this Forum's favorite;
Kallen...well Lelouch showed what he thought of her when he wanted to use her for sex.
That's not love, that's lust...try telling the girl in your life that you want her to take care of your manly needs just because you feel depressed.
You can bet she'll tell you where you can shove your problem because she knows it's not love, it's just your John-Thomas talking.

I think Lelouch lusted after Kallen and wanted her sexually for most of S1 and the start of R2, but after he started the ZR I don't think he was capable of having sexual lust, let alone be in love, anymore with anyone (even if he had actually loved Kallen, at that point it didn't matter).

I'm sure Lelouch was aware of Kallen's feelings at the end of R2 (even before she kissed him) and that's why he rejected her just before the climax of the ZR, because he didn't want to hurt her, or anyone else, anymore than he had already.

Did he love Kallen?
Maybe...maybe not.
I don't care for the fanon which swears by every frame in the show where they are seen together that there's something romantic there, because it's condecending and silly (not too mention taking all the fun out of the love life of Lelouch).
The same thing could be said about Lelouch and Euhpie on Kaminejima Island...but do I see Euphie and Lelouch as a thing? Heck No.
The creators don't tell us who he loved, so anybody's guess is as valid as anybody else's.

My guess is that he loved/lusted after all three women at different points in the series, but by the end of R2 Lelouch was incapable of loving anyone romantically.