2009-11-18, 16:09 | Link #22101 | ||
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Join Date: Dec 2008
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And Kallen had decided that she would rather go down fighting against Britannia rather than living a sheltered upbringing within it. Red pill vs. blue pill. |
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2009-11-18, 16:15 | Link #22102 | |
Puppet Master
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Behind You
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I couldn't agree more.
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2009-11-18, 16:54 | Link #22103 | |||
Spinning Lotus
Join Date: Jul 2008
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Kallen is different, even if she doesn't have hope, and even if she expects death, she is not actively trying to get herself killed. Suzaku does. This is the difference between them. Suzaku treats his cause as a means to die. Kallen accepts that death is the likely outcome of her cause but isn't trying to die.
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2009-11-18, 18:47 | Link #22104 |
Puppet Master
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Behind You
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To me Shirley and to an extent the student council (except for Nina) all represented the positive side of Britannia. The only thing Shirley can be condemned for is wounding Villetta and not finishing her off for good.
You can't say she's a bad person because she happened to be Britannian and didn't take Kallen's stance. Shirley had no reason to lash out at society in a childish fit, and she showed she was capable for forgiveness. Kallen would've never forgiven the guy who killed her brother. She chooses to kill people who had nothing to do with her brother's death just because they're Britannians, and never mind that whoever off'd Naoto was just doing his duty. Terrorism is dangerous business, perhaps Naoto should've chosen a different career path?
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2009-11-18, 19:17 | Link #22106 |
Um-Shmum
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 40
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would you please stop with the pretense that britannia WASNT evil empire incarnate
you keep trying to make something grey when its as black as the ace of spades season 1 STARTS with britannia massacring an entire ghetto because the people living in it had the poor sense to live somewhere that was considered "the wrong place" it follows with several other massacres during the season, with one being used mearly as an excuse to draw zero in and the other having absolutely no reason other then euphie saying "kill them all" and season 2 begins with the elevens being treated even WORSE then they did in season 1 with elevens being forced to kill one another for the amusment of britannian crowds and being treated like merchandise or forced into prostitution because they have no rights at all between shooting unarmed women and children and BURNING PEOPLE ALIVE britannia is portrayed as utterly evil in this setting there is not "just doing their duty", since they work for a complete monster and carry out his atrocities and disturbingly often, they do so with a smile on their faces the guy who runs the empire basiclly says that anyone who is weak should be considered as inferior and treated as such these are not isolated cases, this is the way the empire is ran you're repeated attempts to paint the japanese liberation movment as somehow on the same level as britannia by referring to them as terrorists is a joke naoto could be eating babies and would still be marginally better then the way britannia is portrayed its simply too fucked up to be viewed as anything but NAZI Germany on steroids this is NOT grey and grey morality and the black knights are NEVER treated as somehow wrong or misguided in their fight against britannia's tyrany you're just trying to paint britannia as symapthtic because it lends credence to the notion that it could be redeemed from within and that suzaku is not COMPLETELY deluded in that thought
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2009-11-18, 19:19 | Link #22107 | ||
Banned
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: U.S.A.
Age: 36
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And I know you have your own peculiar beliefs when it comes to this, but as far as Naoto goes, he was just doing what hundreds of other Japanese people were doing. He was fighting an oppressive government that was destroying the lives of the Japanese people. You may as well condemn the entire BK and JLF. Quote:
For the record though, I don't suffer any delusions that the Black Knights were the absolutely "good" side in all this. They killed hundreds, if not thousands, of people, both soldiers and civilians, and enacted on or at least went along with many unethical practices. But as bad as they were, they were nothing compared to Britannia. So you see, they're not good, they're just the lesser of two evils. It's the same for most, if not all, wars. |
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2009-11-18, 19:21 | Link #22108 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Age: 35
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As for the effect of Euphie being a temporary crutch and Suzaku falling back into his death wish, I've said before I don't really think so. Suzaku speaks about his death wish in Turn 8 in past tense; as he tells Anya, there was somebody who understood him once, and that is enough for him. Throughout R2, Suzaku pursues his goals with a noticeably lowered degree of restraint than in S1--part of the reason for that is because he no longer feels that he is more unworthy or detestable than his enemies. In R2, who does Suzaku hate more--himself, or Zero? It's Zero obviously, and that means that for most of the season it is Zero Suzaku is trying to destroy, not himself. Last edited by Sol Falling; 2009-11-18 at 19:47. |
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2009-11-18, 19:28 | Link #22109 |
Um-Shmum
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 40
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the main difference between kallen and suzaku is that by season 2 kallen still remembers who she is fighting for
japan you are right in saying that suzaku hates zero, and his hate has grown to such an extent that he loses sight on his original goal of making japan a better place did you see the hell hole that japan became during the time skip considering that he claims he wants to help the japanese, you'd figure suzaku's newly gained position would be better used in japan trying to PREVENT this senseless crualty and mistreatment of his people but instead, he's off in the EU conquering other nations, and only returns to japan once zero shows up he has lost touch with who he was fighting for in the first place he's not trying to help japan, he is trying to hurt zero, at any cost
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2009-11-18, 19:53 | Link #22110 | ||
Spinning Lotus
Join Date: Jul 2008
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Suzaku's self-destructive attitude is not only intentionally harmful to himself, but harmful to his own people because of how he's chosen to act upon it. He supports the people that caused the problem, compounds it by being complicit in their actions with absolutely no plan (at first, and even later on he practically redefines short-sighted), and finally would throw it all away on a whim if given the opportunity. Quote:
Much of this is off-topic, it occurs to me.
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2009-11-18, 21:05 | Link #22111 | ||
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2009-11-19, 02:24 | Link #22113 | |
Pancakes
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: In Your House. No, really, look properly.
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And I don't think you understand the matter here. Kallen ADORED her brother. She looked up to him, he was the representation of what she wants to become. Would you forgive the person who killed him? And please, Britannian rule of Japan and any of her other colonies and terrorism are not much different in terms of brutality. The only difference was that at least the Japanese terrorists aimed for military targets, not kill civilians in cold blood because they felt like it. And Kallen's hate for Brittania extends far more than simply because of Naoto. Naoto may have influenced her, but Kallen had her own reasons. Reasons that were never truly explored within the boundaries of the show.
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2009-11-19, 02:30 | Link #22114 | |
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2009-11-19, 03:48 | Link #22115 | |||
Um-Shmum
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
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its praticularly requested (given the "all hail britannia" slogan) and it works wonderfully once you realize that in the frame of the analogy, the japanese are not the jews other then hitler's jewish fetish, Germany was mean to a lot of other people as well, and with that in mind, japan is much better if being compared to Russia the perception of Japanese in the britannian eye is basically "inferior people, fit only to be slaves, who's lands should be taken from them because the master race needs them for its own goals." which is practicly the same way the NAZI's viewed the russins there is also the issue of britannia being equal parts obedience to the ruler and and an indoctrinated belief of national supremacy, and that all other nations and people are inferiors again, just like nazi germany which is a pretty good explanation on why britannian soldiers seem to approach the matter of massacring civilians with the same glee that you'd expect from a child at christmas morning after all, they get to show their loyalty to their ruler, AND stomp the inferior lesser people at the same time as for the people who "people who care enough about the Areas and the Numbers to act on it and were killed for that" the fact that britannia was actively killing off anyone who attempted to aid the numbers only hammers home the point that it is utterly fucked up and the "children who learned from birth to look down on the numbers" should get a wake up call about that preferably in the form of the numbers kicking their asses (which was, ironiclly, exactly what the black knights were doing) and you'll forgive me if i find the notion of saying "millions of britannians would die because their country needed to be destroyed" laughable when you remember that they did the same for the japanese only without the japanese doing the same to them to begin with its almost poetic justice in that its basiclly a twisted application of the golden rule "treat others as you would wish for them to treat you" we see how britannia treats others Quote:
while i find his new goal similarly repulsive for different reasons, the lines were not really the same lines (unless you bought into his act that made it SEEM as if they were) under those conditions, siding with lelouch, while knowing what shnizel was planing to do, would ironiclly STILL count as fighting for japan, because it averts a greater threat to it and kallen hardly fights for herself she could enjoy a life of riches and comfort if she wanted to, but she gives those things up because she believes in fighting against the oppression of her people who in all likely hood would never thank her for it that she falls in love with lelouch along the way does not change that and in fact, the fact that she fought against him in the final battle is alone proof of that (you dont cry over killing someone who you WANT to kill) when lelouch became japan's enemy, kallen fought him just as hard as she fought against the old regime Quote:
her father doesnt know she's a terrorist, and she admits she has no problems with him personally she spends a fair amount of time mistakingly hating her real mom so there is no use in avenging her and she out right forbids the use of a weapon that would cause MASSIVE civilian deaths, so she's not out to kill as many britannians as possible she makes her points VERY clear in the phone call she has with lelouch during ep 4 of season 1
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2009-11-19, 12:55 | Link #22116 | |
transparent amoeba
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Atlanta
Age: 36
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Hell hasn't frozen over, but someone should check the thermostat... |
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2009-11-19, 13:59 | Link #22117 |
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Join Date: Feb 2007
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Comparing Britannia to Nazi Germany is borderline idiotic. You have to forgive my bluntness but that's just going overboard. We're talking about an anime empire that's on even real and one of the most brutal dictatorships of the 20th centry.
And btw, Britannia never established anything such as a master race or any of that nonsense so I don't know where you're getting it from. Master NATIONALITY sure, but not race. As you can clearly see in the show there are Britannians of every race, i.e Black King, mexican knight KIA in Narita etc. Now, while Nazi germany did use the concept of a master race its main targets were jews and communists, who were the main enemies of Fascism. There were SS divisions composed of Italians, Romanians, Spaniards and even Arabs and Balkan muslims.
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2009-11-19, 14:11 | Link #22118 |
I change anime endings.
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Like Britannia, nazi has the same typology of ideas, they're the must and the other just inferior people.
Then some exalted leader evidence it always and some people with the same exalted ideals and a minor grade use it too... If you look, there were evil nazi and good nazi, the evil were the minor percentage, but everyone with a important position and influence, same for britannia noble class. And about the racism, is it present too, look characters like Jeremiah (on R1), the kor Luciano, Alicia lohmeyer, or the Villetta primordial thought when she shot Ougi, because she's disgusted about the fact she lived together and made love with him. |
2009-11-19, 14:12 | Link #22119 | |
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2009-11-19, 17:24 | Link #22120 | |
Um-Shmum
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 40
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it takes lelouch to a level not unlike that of shnizel and charles were he views himself as better suited to decide whats best for humanity and it doesnt matter how much of it he murders along the way which is NOT what he was like before it but while lelouch's goals and mind frame is wrong, the end result would have benefited japan he is not out to enslave it as a long term concept the end result would ensure its freedom for a long time which is why kallen joining him would still count as working for japan even if it would also implicate her in his MASSIVELY fucked up sins
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