[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Kurizu204]

erika should have no influence with ep 1-4 that should include her corpse id change it to nanjo over hears shanon talking to her self about her plan. then shanon use her alive self to play corpse and nanjo covers for her

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Kurizu204

erika should have no influence with ep 1-4 that should include her corpse id change it to nanjo over hears shanon talking to her self about her plan. then shanon use her alive self to play corpse and nanjo covers for her

Erika doesn't exist in the first four games because she dies before or shortly after washing up on the island. Shannon could have used any corpse for this part. That the corpse at hand happened to be Erika's is not significant to Beato's game.

[k//eternal]

Shannon can't be playing dead if she's standing right there.

Erika's corpse certainly can influence EP1-4, just as "some girl found dead on the beach". Prior to knowing about Erika, ideas like "prepared corpse" or "mannequin" have also been suggested, if that's more palatable.

Incidentally, "mannequin" evades the identification red text, although it would still require Nanjo to play along or be incredibly incompetent.

(EDIT: haa, sniped)

[Antera Caramichael]

"She had no influence on the previous games"

[ijriims]

I have seen many theories on motive, and generally they were targeting at Shannon, Jessica and George.

Shannon, Jessica: Either one of them made a crush on Battler six years ago, and when Battler ran away from the family. This broke their hearts and thus created an alternate personality Beatrice. And for some reasons, they planned to kill the whole family, believing that this could make Battler recall his promise.

George: He planned to kill all the people on Rokkenjima such that he could inherit all the money, and he was sure about Shannon would agree to his proposal. Just that everytime something went wrong and he got killed in the process or Sayo betrayed him. So the end result was usually Ange getting all the inheritance. Again, Battler's sin was his breaking Sayo's heart six years ago.

Question: Could one actually find clues that Jessica and Shannon loved Battler instead of Kanon and George at all? On the other hand, the series went on and on to portray these two pairs' pure love relationships.

I realized that most people thought my motive theory of Kyrie was so bad that people don't even bother to respond here . But I strongly believe that my theory was probably a richer and told a better tale of Battler's sin than the above theories, which detailed how Maria was involved (which was what was emphasized over and over in EP4), and also combined information from EP6.

------------

Sorry for the hard-selling here. But really I wanted to know how others assess this theory I have thought out so hard. Even if it sounds like a pet theory.

[MeoTwister5]

I'll ask this here because I got ignored in the Ep6 thread, and it's too potentially spoilerish for the Q&A...

Spoiler for Ep6 Spoilers:

Does anyone have a general idea of what Erika was trying to mean with all her vagueness when she was being avoidant in talking with Dlanor in her room? This was the conversation after the initiation of the Love Trial, the one with the kakeras and the chess game.

[Marion]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Erika doesn't exist in the first four games because she dies before or shortly after washing up on the island. Shannon could have used any corpse for this part. That the corpse at hand happened to be Erika's is not significant to Beato's game.

My problem is that the game should have enough clues to be solved by EP 4. But we didn't even know about Erika's existence until EP 5. So crafting a solution involving her should be impossible. It was also stated in red she had no influence on any previous games either, which I think should include using her corpse as a body double.

[Kirroha]

I want to say something, but I don't know if this is the right place to say it.

I'm pretty sure that the culprit definitely has something to do with our Beatrice who died in 1967. Whether it is someone related to that Beatrice or considers himself/herself another "Beatrice", it is not known. However, even though Beato acts as if she's all the Beatrices rolled into one, I think that in the game board, there's one thing we can make sure - there are several 'Beatrices', some of which might be the same people, and some not. Following:

- 1967 Beatrice. Gets 'killed' by Rosa.
- Legend of the Gold Beatrice. The "Beatrice" created by the legend of the witch that the Rokkenjima peeps believed.
- Kinzo's obsessed-about Beatrice. Might be one or both of the above.
- The Beatrice who sent the letter to Maria.
- The Beatrice who wrote in Maria's grimoire, as well as the bottle-letter-writer.
- The Beatrice who drew the magic circles.
- And finally, the "Culprit" Beatrice.

As long as we can try to find the possible people who can fit into each one of the above, will it make the whole thing easier?

[Arkwright]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Okay, here's how you can solve all of EP1 realistically with Shkanontrice + Nanjo's granddaughter as the second culprit...at least I hope so Sayo isn't aware that Nanjo is the granddaughter in disguise in this theory.

Forgive me for being a bit wordy, but I've included all of my evidence as well. I believe every single point follows naturally from the facts and the assumptions of my overall theory.

Spoiler for EP1 Theory with Shkanontrice/Nanjo:

Spoiler for The first twilight: The Failed Body Double:

For the first twilight, Sayo has access to a gun and all night to move the 6 bodies including Erika's corpse to the shed. Of course, Sayo has enough tools to make a fairly flat-chested girl look like Shannon, so dressing up Erika's corpse isn't impossible.

However, there's a problem. Three people see Shannon's corpse, and one of those--Hideyoshi--doesn't have a reason to keep quiet. It's impossible to misidentify a corpse in EP1, so all three of these people must recognize that this is not Shannon, but someone dressed up in Shannon's clothes. Maybe Sayo was trying to get away with a fake body, but it didn't work.

What would any sensible person do in this scene? Obviously, "Nanjo" and Hideyoshi suspect that Shannon is the culprit, but don't want to risk mentioning it in case she has an accomplice. Even more obviously, Hideyoshi wouldn't expect that Shannon killed all of these people on her own, so in his eyes, she must have an accomplice.

Sayo is right next to them as Kanon, and she probably realizes that they've caught on. She knows that Hideyoshi will tell Eva as soon as they are alone, and makes plans to silence them both. Don't worry, she has a plan for Nanjo as well later on...

Spoiler for The second twilight: Silencing Witness #1:

For the second twilight, Kanon leaves the parlor, cuts the chain on the guest room door, then murders Eva and Hideyoshi. He then uses enough duct tape (hey, why not?) to reset the chain. Before he goes, he paints the magic circle on the door so that Genji won't notice it.

Spoiler for door tricks:

There are a few ways to do this(thanks to ktern for some):
Cover the paint with paper or something and remove the paper later.
Use a type of paint that changes color as it sets. Most likely, Genji wouldn't be on the lookout for brown paint on the door.
Put some kind of clear glue over most of the door (except where Genji is likely to knock). Then, throw some red powder or dye over the whole door when you want to make the marks appear.

When he and Genji come by later, Genji tries the door chain, but it's mentioned that he opens the door slowly. Opening it like that won't break the duct tape easily, and it never mentions that he wiggled it around very much. Then, Kanon and Genji both head to the kitchen to meet Kumasawa. It is not clear which one of them left the front of the door first, but since they both arrive at the kitchen at about the same time, Kanon couldn't have had more than a minute or two to himself. However, this is enough time for him to use one of the methods listed above to make the marks appear on the door.

Later, Kanon returns with Kumasawa to cut the chain. Not only does Kanon cut the chain himself, he also enters the room first, giving him plenty of opportunity to pick up the duct tape while Kumasawa totally freaks out.

Spoiler for The "death" of Kanon: Silencing Witness #2:

Later, Kanon and Kumasawa go to check the smell coming from the boiler room. At this point, Sayo realizes that Kinzo's burnt corpse is in this room. This tells her that someone else has been meddling on this island, and she doesn't know who. Whoever the person was, they must have known how to find Kinzo's corpse, which would probably unsettle Sayo.

The best course of action for Sayo to take is to let Kanon "die" and go searching for this new meddler without being restricted. She fakes her own death and convinces Nanjo to hide her wounds. The boiler room is dark even with the lights on, and since Nanjo is the "medical expert", she can protect Kanon's secret. Sayo must have taken a risk here, hoping that her faked death wouldn't be discovered by anyone. However, since Nanjo is actually the second culprit, she was in less danger than she could have known. Nanjo would do anything to prevent Sayo from being discovered (that would end the crime and people would stop hiding from the culprit. Plus, who knows what Sayo might say).

Once she and Nanjo are in a room to themselves (and Jessica, who would never leave Kanon's side), Kanon explains that to catch the culprit, the best plan would be to fake Kanon's own death and thereby allow Kanon to act from the shadows. Jessica obviously agrees because she trusts Kanon. Nanjo agrees because she's done with her mission in setting the bomb (turning the gas on in the boiler room and leaving some alarm clock attached to a match or whatever delayed release device you want). All Nanjo has to do now is keep everyone confused for a little while longer and find a chance to dash into the forest. Having Sayo on the loose should make for many more impossible closed room murders to distract the others and keep them holed up indoors.

By the way, this might also be Sayo's way of keeping Nanjo quiet about Shannon's corpse. If Kanon says "I saw that it wasn't Shannon's corpse, so I faked my death back there. Don't worry about chasing her down. Don't tell anyone because she probably has an accomplice. She's like a sister to me, so I am responsible for stopping her, and I can move more freely through the shadows now that I'm dead."...then Nanjo would no longer have any reason to tell and Shannon's secret would be safe. Of course, Sayo knew that Nanjo would be the one to take care of her if she was mortally wounded, and since they had both seen Shannon's corpse together, it's possible that the two of them discussed this idea beforehand.

Spoiler for Escaping the study:

...However, Nanjo does need to slip outside herself eventually, without looking suspicious. Of course, anyone could have predicted that the survivors would eventually crowd together in some room. So Nanjo took the envelope from Maria's first letter (no one knows where it went, right?) and scribbled down some random stuff about them not having time yet. Then, she stuck in the magic circle about discord to freak the others out even more. Maria never got to look at that magic circle, so it's possible that someone other than Beatrice drew it.

After everyone crowds into the study, Nanjo just waits until they're distracted and places the letter, making sure that she does it in a way that implicates multiple people. If she made herself the only suspicious one, she might get shot dead on the spot.

Spoiler for The finale:

Before Nanjo can leave, however, Sayo catches up to her and the others and kills them, making Maria face the wall to create a witness but hide her own identity. Of course, the phone call is used to lure the others out of the study. Sayo leaves a letter, Natsuhi finds it and goes outside, Sayo shoots Natsuhi. Then, Sayo reveals herself to the three survivors at midnight before the bomb explodes and everyone dies. Funnily enough, the characters who appear at the tea party are exactly the same characters who met in this final scene.

Well, this is probably the most useful way to respond. Things that are still unexplained:

-"Golden butterflies" in the hallway. Red herring of being attacked by the culprit?
-The magic circle on Natsuhi's door. Random misdirection?
-The door slamming. Fake testimony from both of them?
-Why he doesn't just disappear like in Ep2. He was going to, but changed his mind after he ran out the door?
-Nanjo went to the parlor from the study and not outside. Shannon chased them there with a gun?
-Natsuhi's smoking gun. Missed?

Other comments:

-Genji doesn't seem to care about going off by himself, but he insists that Kanon not walk around by himself alone. Even a minute or two without Genji around seems unlikely. Also, if Genji goes ahead without Kanon, it's even harder to explain how Kanon got to the kitchen, then the storehouse, and back to the guestroom before Genji arrived with Natsuhi (considering that the distance between the kitchen and the parlor where she is was described as not too far.)
-Maybe the others of the first four in the room were busy going after the culprit or quivering in terror, but Genji seems like the type of person where the first thing he would do would be to rush to Kanon and attempt to cut off the bleeding.
-I don't remember, does Nanjo know ahead of time that Kanon is Shannon? I guess Kanon told them the plan before Jessica or George could find out.

[Painiac]

Originally Posted by Kirroha

I want to say something, but I don't know if this is the right place to say it.

I'm pretty sure that the culprit definitely has something to do with our Beatrice who died in 1967. Whether it is someone related to that Beatrice or considers himself/herself another "Beatrice", it is not known. However, even though Beato acts as if she's all the Beatrices rolled into one, I think that in the game board, there's one thing we can make sure - there are several 'Beatrices', some of which might be the same people, and some not. Following:

- 1967 Beatrice. Gets 'killed' by Rosa.
- Legend of the Gold Beatrice. The "Beatrice" created by the legend of the witch that the Rokkenjima peeps believed.
- Kinzo's obsessed-about Beatrice. Might be one or both of the above.
- The Beatrice who sent the letter to Maria.
- The Beatrice who wrote in Maria's grimoire, as well as the bottle-letter-writer.
- The Beatrice who drew the magic circles.
- And finally, the "Culprit" Beatrice.

As long as we can try to find the possible people who can fit into each one of the above, will it make the whole thing easier?

We can be pretty sure that person who sent letter by Maria was ,,culprit" Beatrice. It was for making illusion of witch for controlling Maria and confusing other people. Who drew? Also culprit, who could? There was often little time to make this, so beside the murderer, nobody could do this. Also for making illusion of witch. Alas, ,,culprit" Beatrice could for cheating Maria spend time with her and make her brainwash. And, thanks to Ange, it it also proven that culprit is writer of bottle-letters. It's probably like this. Witch is smokebomb, for making killing easier.
Real Beatrice is dead.

[Arkwright]

Originally Posted by Painiac

We can be pretty sure that person who sent letter by Maria was ,,culprit" Beatrice. It was for making illusion of witch for controlling Maria and confusing other people. Who drew? Also culprit, who could? There was often little time to make this, so beside the murderer, nobody could do this. Also for making illusion of witch. Alas, ,,culprit" Beatrice could for cheating Maria spend time with her and make her brainwash. And, thanks to Ange, it it also proven that culprit is writer of bottle-letters. It's probably like this. Witch is smokebomb, for making killing easier.
Real Beatrice is dead.

If we assume the witch is not real, episode 4 strongly suggests that the witch killings were supposed to be fake, but something went wrong. It's not too much of a stretch to imagine that other episodes could have been the same, in which case the writer of letters and magic circles, etc., does not have to be the "culprit".

[rogerpepitone]

Spoiler for Chronotrig's hypothesis:

At the first twilight:
- Why did piece-Sayo smash several faces, then leave Erika's intact? That seems like a big risk to her, for no potential gain.
- You say that Hideyoshi didn't mention that the corpse wasn't Shannon's because he thought that she might have an accomplice. AND?
- Any treatment of a chest wound is going to involve removing the victim's shirt, and Sayo's disguise isn't going to last after that. If she hasn't already made a plan with Nanjo, for all she knows, Nanjo might try treating her right there. (Moving an injured person is generally discouraged.)
- The only one who can claim Kanon's name is the person himself! A different person cannot claim his name! (嘉音の名を名乗ることが出来るのは本人のみ！ 異なる人間が名乗ることは出来ない！) The english text uses "himself". Was the original Japanese gender-specific or gender-neutral?
- I don't recall, but was the study letter sealed? If so, how did Nanjo do so?
- Re the alleged parlor letter: What made Nanjo so sure that only Natsuhi would read it?

[ijriims]

Originally Posted by rogerpepitone

Spoiler for Chronotrig's hypothesis:

At the first twilight:
- Why did piece-Sayo smash several faces, then leave Erika's intact? That seems like a big risk to her, for no potential gain.
- You say that Hideyoshi didn't mention that the corpse wasn't Shannon's because he thought that she might have an accomplice. AND?
- Any treatment of a chest wound is going to involve removing the victim's shirt, and Sayo's disguise isn't going to last after that. If she hasn't already made a plan with Nanjo, for all she knows, Nanjo might try treating her right there. (Moving an injured person is generally discouraged.)
- The only one who can claim Kanon's name is the person himself! A different person cannot claim his name! (嘉音の名を名乗ることが出来るのは本人のみ！ 異なる人間が名乗ることは出来ない！) The english text uses "himself". Was the original Japanese gender-specific or gender-neutral?
- I don't recall, but was the study letter sealed? If so, how did Nanjo do so?
- Re the alleged parlor letter: What made Nanjo so sure that only Natsuhi would read it?

Here it was gender neutral. You know, even if English uses himself, it can also be gender neutral.

I would want to know why Nanjo's granddaughter would actually pose as her grandfather.

And if she was actually able to deceive everyone with make-up, I suppose Shannon would make herself look like Kanon as well..... the level of ridiculousness were comparable....

Well, who was Kanon then?

[chronotrig]

<Good>! I think I can handle all of these.

@Marion:

Spoiler for size:

Originally Posted by Marion

My problem is that the game should have enough clues to be solved by EP 4. But we didn't even know about Erika's existence until EP 5. So crafting a solution involving her should be impossible. It was also stated in red she had no influence on any previous games either, which I think should include using her corpse as a body double.

Here's my point: if I were to say "Sayo used a body double corpse that she had prepared beforehand", this loophole would be solved, correct? The game can be solved that way. In EP5, there is a line of red text saying "The only corpses that appear are those of characters who've appeared in the story." However, if this applies retroactively to EP1-4, it changes those games. So while the identity of Erika's corpse has no influence on those games when they were first played, it is significant after the rules are changed in EP5.

@Arkwright:
I've taken the liberty of numbering your points to make them easier to respond to.

Spoiler for size:

Originally Posted by Arkwright

Well, this is probably the most useful way to respond. Things that are still unexplained:

1. "Golden butterflies" in the hallway. Red herring of being attacked by the culprit?
2. The magic circle on Natsuhi's door. Random misdirection?
3. The door slamming. Fake testimony from both of them?
4. Why he doesn't just disappear like in Ep2. He was going to, but changed his mind after he ran out the door?
5. Nanjo went to the parlor from the study and not outside. Shannon chased them there with a gun?
6. Natsuhi's smoking gun. Missed?

Other comments:

7. Genji doesn't seem to care about going off by himself, but he insists that Kanon not walk around by himself alone. Even a minute or two without Genji around seems unlikely. Also, if Genji goes ahead without Kanon, it's even harder to explain how Kanon got to the kitchen, then the storehouse, and back to the guestroom before Genji arrived with Natsuhi (considering that the distance between the kitchen and the parlor where she is was described as not too far.)
8. Maybe the others of the first four in the room were busy going after the culprit or quivering in terror, but Genji seems like the type of person where the first thing he would do would be to rush to Kanon and attempt to cut off the bleeding.
9. I don't remember, does Nanjo know ahead of time that Kanon is Shannon? I guess Kanon told them the plan before Jessica or George could find out.

1. From my Battler perspective theory, all of the scenes we're shown come from what Battler thinks at the end of the game. Because he is also the detective in EP1-4, all scenes he sees directly must show what he thinks he sees, and all scenes he doesn't see are made up of a combination of hearsay and his own imagination filling in the details. Battler has been told several times of Beatrice floating around the mansion as gold butterflies, so he imagines that this happens in the case of Shannon's, Kanon's, and Natsuhi's deaths. In EP1, the magic is very, very vague, a sign that Battler doesn't have a clue what really happened.

And just a side-note: At the end of EP1, Battler probably does "meet Beatrice", but only a second before midnight, when the bomb goes off. So Beatrice doesn't have a chance to talk to him much. However, in EP2, we see that Battler meets Beatrice long before midnight, and that she explains the truth of all crimes to him before he dies. That's the sole reason why magic scenes exist in EP2 but not EP1.

2. Ah yes, I should have mentioned this. The bloody hands (not a magic circle) are proof that the culprit really is taking this witch thing seriously. Natsuhi was one of those randomly chosen for the first twilight. When Sayo saw the charm on the inside of Natsuhi's door, she realized that she couldn't realistically act a witch if she killed Natsuhi, so she instead made those marks and chose someone else. If you remember, those marks were a big reason why Battler started to give up, so it wasn't a wasted effort.

3. To be honest, I'm not sure. Maybe it was just a random sound from the boiler room machinery. I'll pass this point up for now.

4. As I've said, Sayo wanted to play out that plan with "Nanjo". She had to convince Nanjo that someone else would take care of the culprit so that "Nanjo" didn't tell anyone else about Shannon's corpse. Also, if Kanon just left, "Nanjo" would be forced to believe that Kanon had faked his death too. If that happened, of course he would tell everyone about Sayo's faked corpse, and then all closed room murders would fall apart.

5. If Nanjo just made a dash outside like that, it would have been very suspicious and Kumasawa or Genji might have followed him. After the explosion, Genji would realize that Nanjo knew, and might kill him. He probably planned to create some other excuse like the letter in the study, but didn't have time to carry it out.

6. In the VN version, the timing is very vague. It may be that the gun that killed Natsuhi was fired shortly beforehand, and the sound the cousins heard was Sayo firing Natsuhi's gun before leaving. Or, if you like, they both fired at the same time and Natsuhi missed.

7. As I've said, Genji and Kanon reach the kitchen at about the same time. Nanjo's reaction is "Oh, Genji" so I assume that Genji came in first.

8. I'm not sure. I think Genji would leave it to the Doctor before trying anything himself.

9. I don't think "Nanjo" needs to know about Shkanon. Nanjo's granddaughter does, but I don't think Sayo knows that. If Kanon and Nanjo discussed a faked death beforehand, then Nanji wouldn't need to undress Kanon and could recommend that they move him as is.

Sorry, rogerpepitone, I'll get to yours later.

[Kitsu]

2. Ah yes, I should have mentioned this. The bloody hands (not a magic circle) are proof that the culprit really is taking this witch thing seriously. Natsuhi was one of those randomly chosen for the first twilight. When Sayo saw the charm on the inside of Natsuhi's door, she realized that she couldn't realistically act a witch if she killed Natsuhi, so she instead made those marks and chose someone else. If you remember, those marks were a big reason why Battler started to give up, so it wasn't a wasted effort.

Problem here is that the finger prints were present in the second game as well. A game in which Natushi died and wasn't given the charm. Why the fingerprints if Natsuhi was killed anyway and there wasn't a charm that was supposed to protect the room?

9. I don't think "Nanjo" needs to know about Shkanon. Nanjo's granddaughter does, but I don't think Sayo knows that. If Kanon and Nanjo discussed a faked death beforehand, then Nanji wouldn't need to undress Kanon and could recommend that they move him as is.

Well even if Nanjo says that they move them as he is and that way the people in the oiler room won't see that Kanon is actually a girl/Shannon/Sayo what ever but Jessica is with "Nanjo" so at least she would have seen that....which would be pretty disturbing right?

[Arkwright]

2. Can't check at the moment, but I seem to remember that when Genji saw the circle on the shed, he remembered something on Natsuhi's door that he described as a drawing, not as just random markings.


For the complaints about Kanon, I think the operative theory is that he broke the charade of being injured pretty much right away before anyone had a chance to undress him (perhaps he just said it in the hallway.)

[Klashikari]

On my way back from my last mid term, I was still thinking about Episode 6 last closed room, and something popped in my mind that look quite... an equivalent proof that deny the whole "shkanon" theory.

The red used that are important for this are:

Battler and Kanon are different persons (戦人と嘉音は別人である。)

When Battler was rescued, only Kanon entered in the guest room (戦人救出時、客室に入ったのは嘉音のみである。)

From the moment you (Erika) entered in the room during the Logic Error, only you, Battler and Kanon went in and out of the guest room (そなたの入室からロジックエラー時まで、客室を出入りしたのは、そなたと戦人と嘉音のみだ。)

There were 3 people: you (Erika), Battler and Kanon. (そなたと戦人と嘉音で、３人である。). Note: Beatrice respond to Erika's question regarding if there were 3 bodies.

3 people went in and out, for a total of 3 times. You (Erika) and Kanon went inside. Battler went outside. I've already stated with the red truth that about all names, none can introduce themselves with these, except the person in question. Therefore, only Erika, Battler and Kanon can be the persons in question. (３人、即ち３体が出入りした。そなたと嘉音は入ったのみ、戦人は出たのみ。全ての名は本人以外に名乗れな いと赤き真実ですでに語っている。よって、ヱリカ、戦人、嘉音の名はいずれも、本人にしか名乗 れぬのだ。)

Because of this, I believe there is no leeway for Shannon, Sayo or whatever people to be in there. Even if one claims "persona" counts in "people" and that doesn't contradict the body count, then that will contradict with the red that state "who went in, and who went out" and "there were 3 persons"

To summary: Only 3 persons were in the room : Erika, Battler and Kanon.
If Kanon was also Shannon/Sayo/Beatrice, this will lead to an abnormal contradiction, since one of them would take Kanon's place, contradicting "who were in the room".
I will also add that even if the red truth can be twisted so many times, I think it is hard to conclude that Kanon "suddenly switched" to other persona in that kind of convenient timing, and furthermore going past the "person count" despite Kanon should be counted as a persona as well by this logic.

Of course, if you are stretching like no tomorrow the red, it isn't like I can advocate for or against that, since it is a open door to almost anything but heh...

For that, I have however an extra clue:
Remember when Erika asked Battler to confirm those who were in the room next to the cousin's room? She first asked to confirm who they are.
However, when she asked to use the "everyone else" for the cousin's room, Battler was puzzled. And at that point, there is a narration part that states this:

戦人は、“いとこ部屋には、蔵臼、留弗夫、朱志香、源次、郷田、嘉音がいる”、

という復唱を求められたなら、きっと、特に気にもせず、認めると赤で宣言しただろう。

Battler would certainly repeat that "Krauss, Rudolf, Jessica, Genji, Gohda, Kanon are in the cousins' room" in red if it was requested, especially that he isn't bothered/worried about it.

That means Battler had the intent to say it in red. I know his narration can be unreliable, but lying to himself is beyond odd.

I believe the conclusion of this closed room is that Kanon died and his corpse somewhere in the guest room. Again, remember that the red cannot count the dead at all, proved by Kinzo's existence.

[chronotrig]

@rogerpepitone:

Spoiler for size:

At the first twilight:
1. Why did piece-Sayo smash several faces, then leave Erika's intact? That seems like a big risk to her, for no potential gain.
2. You say that Hideyoshi didn't mention that the corpse wasn't Shannon's because he thought that she might have an accomplice. AND?
3. Any treatment of a chest wound is going to involve removing the victim's shirt, and Sayo's disguise isn't going to last after that. If she hasn't already made a plan with Nanjo, for all she knows, Nanjo might try treating her right there. (Moving an injured person is generally discouraged.)
4. The only one who can claim Kanon's name is the person himself! A different person cannot claim his name! (嘉音の名を名乗ることが出来るのは本人のみ！ 異なる人間が名乗ることは出来ない！) The english text uses "himself". Was the original Japanese gender-specific or gender-neutral?
5. I don't recall, but was the study letter sealed? If so, how did Nanjo do so?
6. Re the alleged parlor letter: What made Nanjo so sure that only Natsuhi would read it?

1. It may be that she just enjoys the risk. That's Beato's characteristic personality trait, and it's proven by the fact that the first twilight's victims are chosen at random (and Sayo's personalities are also put at risk).

Of course, it's also possible that dragging all those bodies, finding Erika's corpse, and preparing it took most of the night. If Erika was chosen last after the charm on Natsuhi's door messed up Sayo's plans, it makes sense that she wouldn't have as much time for this last one. It isn't easy to plow a face, and this might be why she stuck Shannon in the shadows and out of sight from the entrance.

2. Because there was someone among them who had killed 6 people. You can't blame him for being cautious. And the corpse was obviously disguised to look like Shannon, so he probably thought the culprit expected him not to notice. Knowing Hideyoshi's personality in business, he'd prefer have an ace up his sleeve rather than just blurting out whatever he thinks. The Kanto dialect is just a front.

3. Well, as I said, I think Nanjo and Kanon did discuss this possibility beforehand. Of course, they couldn't have specified the time. The reason it happened in this particular location is because Kanon saw Kinzo's corpse.

4. As has been mentioned, this line is gender-neutral.

5. Well, Nanjo had to know where Kinzo's corpse was, and she obviously knew of Sayo's plan. It's possible that she knew where Sayo kept the ring. Also, this particular seal might be a fake, since all of those who might be able to identify it were either outside the room or under suspicion already. Plus, Battler's the only one to pick it up, and he doesn't really know what the seal looks like.

6. Good point. I should probably add onto my theory to cover that.
First off, the parlor letter was probably placed by Sayo, not Nanjo. Second, we have no idea what it said, and the final twilight had already been finished. In other words, it most likely wasn't intended to be read only by Natsuhi. Plus, it was something that inspired Natsuhi to run out to the portrait and block the door behind her. The only realistic solution I can think of is: "The final twilight is over. All you survivors, come out to my portrait to meet me." Natsuhi didn't want the cousins to risk their lives, so she blocked the door behind her and ran out with a gun. She tried to shoot Sayo, but missed, and Sayo shot her.

@Kitsu:

Spoiler for size:

Originally Posted by Kitsu

Problem here is that the finger prints were present in the second game as well. A game in which Natushi died and wasn't given the charm. Why the fingerprints if Natsuhi was killed anyway and there wasn't a charm that was supposed to protect the room?

Do you know when the fingerprints first appeared in EP2? I'm not sure off the top of my head, but I think it was after Shannon, George, and Gohda were "murdered" in Natsuhi's room. That's the room with Natsuhi's mystic mirror. Remember, in EP2, Beatrice had a chance to explain all of the crimes to Battler. Because she told the story about them going to find the mirror (and the mirror actually was in that room) she added in the bloody marks to make the story fit i.e. to make the mirror seem actually powerful. She planned the bloody marks beforehand to make this story fit.

Well even if Nanjo says that they move them as he is and that way the people in the oiler room won't see that Kanon is actually a girl/Shannon/Sayo what ever but Jessica is with "Nanjo" so at least she would have seen that....which would be pretty disturbing right?

If Nanjo and "Kanon" have discussed this plan beforehand, Nanjo wouldn't have any need to check under Kanon's clothes. Of course, Sayo was still taking a risk, but just trying to carry out this crime was a risk and even in EP1, not all of her risks succeeded.

[ijriims]

@chronotrig:

I want to know how you evade this red texts:身元不明死体について、その身元を全て保証する。即ち、替え玉トリックは存在しない！

which Beatrice said particularly to rebuke Battler's claim that the body of the 3 (Genji, Nanjo and Kumasawa) were other people's.

And you introduced Nanjo's daughter?

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by ijriims

@chronotrig:

I want to know how you evade this red texts:身元不明死体について、その身元を全て保証する。即ち、替え玉トリックは存在しない！

which Beatrice said particularly to rebuke Battler's claim that the body of the 3 (Genji, Nanjo and Kumasawa) were other people's.

And you introduced Nanjo's daughter?

As I mentioned, I interpret this to mean "No one ever misidentifies a corpse." In my mind, a "body double trick" occurs when a person uses one corpse to confuse an observer into thinking it's a different corpse. I think this is a reasonable definition. And in my theory, this never happens.

@Klash

Spoiler for size:

Technically speaking, you can call a person by any of their names. So you can call Battler by the name "Ushiromiya" or "you" or "that snotty brat" if you want to, though the last one could also refer to any other person you consider a snotty brat Therefore, when Sayo enters the room, you can say "Kanon" did because that is one of her names. Forget about what's fair in the game or not, you can't deny that this is extremely logical.

In other words, the word "Kanon" has two meanings: one of Sayo's personalities, and one of Sayo's names. If you think there should be a rule about the red allowing two meanings for words, that rule would have to be more complicated than the rest of Umineko put together, and completely arbitrary as well.

If you still feel this is cheap, let me give another example. What would happen if Beato said "Mr. Ushiromiya is dead"? Would this be unfair just because it refers to more than one thing? No. All it does is give you less information than a more specific definition would.