[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Joneleth]

Random thought :

The letter Battler got in Ep5 with Kinzo's ring : it's an impossible letter.

The letter was sealed with the family ring right? But the ring was inside the envelope.

Therefore it's impossible to seal the envelope with the ring!

Therefore the letter was faked, probably by Battler & co to confirm Battler as next head.

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Joneleth

Random thought :

The letter Battler got in Ep5 with Kinzo's ring : it's an impossible letter.

The letter was sealed with the family ring right? But the ring was inside the envelope.

Therefore it's impossible to seal the envelope with the ring!

Therefore the letter was faked, probably by Battler & co to confirm Battler as next head.

The seal is a wax seal, as stated in EP 1. Wax seals work most times like tape - all the person needs to do is get some wax (which can easily be done by burning a candle) then press the emblem from the ring on it, put the ring inside, close the letter and put the seal over. They'll need some special paper to do that, but nothing that can't be prepared in advance.

[rogerpepitone]

That's not how sealing wax works. It's blended so that applying force when the wax is solid is likely to break the wax, and applying force when the wax is part-melted would deform the imprint.

Besides, what would be the point of sealing the envelope containing the ring? The imprint in the seal is just as much evidence of Kinzo's favor as the ring itself. (Most likely, the ring was left with the gold in all episodes.)

[Akuryou]

It was never said in EP5 that the letter was sealed, iirc.

[Used Can]

About "Nanjo" being actually his granddaughter in disguise, is there even one hint for that? I know she's been mentioned, but I highly doubt that counts as a hint. I know there are several hints for Shkanon, but I don't think there's any for anyone to be posing as Nanjo.

Anyhow, may I ask a question about EP6's closed room? After Battler left, the chain was used to lock the door, right? Was it ever said anything about the possibility of escaping through the window?

Originally Posted by Akuryou

It was never said in EP5 that the letter was sealed, iirc.

No one would have taken it seriously, had the letter not had that seal.

[Megaolix]

Originally Posted by Used Can

No one would have taken it seriously, had the letter not had that seal.

Actually, there's no mention that it had been sealed with the ring in particular. Only the enveloppe was recognized this time. So no mystery here except on who put it there.

[DarknessLord]

Aye it's easy to think it was sealed though, because it uses the same image as the sealed letters.

[Used Can]

Originally Posted by Megaolix

So no mystery here except on who put it there.

If there's no seal, it could easily be a sham. There's the possibility the ring in the envelope was a replica. So, it wouldn't matter who put it there. We could easily conclude, as it was suggested earlier, that everything concerning this letter was just an elaborate act to force Battler as the new head.

[chronotrig]

About "Nanjo" being actually his granddaughter in disguise, is there even one hint for that? I know she's been mentioned, but I highly doubt that counts as a hint. I know there are several hints for Shkanon, but I don't think there's any for anyone to be posing as Nanjo.

Spoiler for size:

Look at it this way. Make a list of all characters ever mentioned. Remove all the people we thought were on the island. Remove all people who we know survived past 1986 (Eva was the only survivor). You are left with the people from Jessica's school, the guy flying the plane, and Nanjo's granddaughter. Of these three, only Nanjo's granddaughter isn't eliminated by the red at the end of EP3.

So Nanjo is the only character capable of being a disguise used by someone off the island. There's your hint.

Also, I'm not sure Beato knows who the final culprit is. Remember her last question in EP4 was her asking "Who am I?" This was clearly referring to the explosion that kills everyone in the end, though like Rika, Beato probably doesn't realize what it is. So it makes sense why we haven't had any clearer hints about Nanjo's granddaughter being on the island.

Another reason this might be the case is that according to Bern and Lambda, Beato doesn't know the future. If it weren't for the scene in 1998, it would be impossible to pinpoint Nanjo's granddaughter in this way.

[Used Can]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Spoiler for size:

You are left with the people from Jessica's school, the guy flying the plane, and Nanjo's granddaughter. Of these three, only Nanjo's granddaughter isn't eliminated by the red at the end of EP3.

So Nanjo is the only character capable of being a disguise used by someone off the island. There's your hint.

Spoiler:

You're forgetting the "On" servants: Renon, Junon, Reion and Manon. They've also got mentioned twice in the games. Well, I think Reion has only got mentioned once.

Anyhow, can you explain the elimination process you're talking about in EP3? I'm not sure I understand your point.

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Spoiler for size:

Also, I'm not sure Beato knows who the final culprit is. Remember her last question in EP4 was her asking "Who am I?" This was clearly referring to the explosion that kills everyone in the end, though like Rika, Beato probably doesn't realize what it is. So it makes sense why we haven't had any clearer hints about Nanjo's granddaughter being on the island.

Another reason this might be the case is that according to Bern and Lambda, Beato doesn't know the future. If it weren't for the scene in 1998, it would be impossible to pinpoint Nanjo's granddaughter in this way.

Spoiler:

Honestly, I cannot argue about this. Whether Beato knows everything or not, I don't know. So far, I've assumed she does, but I may be wrong.

Even now, I don't understand the purpose of this game. Sure, Beato wanted Battler to realise something, but, why choose a method like this? I still don't see how the murders and a childhood promise may be related.

[Marion]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Spoiler for size:

Look at it this way. Make a list of all characters ever mentioned. Remove all the people we thought were on the island. Remove all people who we know survived past 1986 (Eva was the only survivor). You are left with the people from Jessica's school, the guy flying the plane, and Nanjo's granddaughter. Of these three, only Nanjo's granddaughter isn't eliminated by the red at the end of EP3.

So Nanjo is the only character capable of being a disguise used by someone off the island. There's your hint.

Also, I'm not sure Beato knows who the final culprit is. Remember her last question in EP4 was her asking "Who am I?" This was clearly referring to the explosion that kills everyone in the end, though like Rika, Beato probably doesn't realize what it is. So it makes sense why we haven't had any clearer hints about Nanjo's granddaughter being on the island.

Another reason this might be the case is that according to Bern and Lambda, Beato doesn't know the future. If it weren't for the scene in 1998, it would be impossible to pinpoint Nanjo's granddaughter in this way.

How can Beato convey a truth to Battler that she does not know. Do you know how utterly pointless that makes everything. The Game Master cannot make a board unless they have an understanding of the game they are setting up. You cannot set up a chess game if you do not know where the pieces must be positioned at the start of the game.

I agree with Klash, this is just far too twisted with the red. I see no reason for Nanjo's granddaughter to disguise as her elderly grandfather. How would she set up such a disguise. If she can set up such a convincing disguise like that then it should be equally possible for someone to make their face look fully smashed without anybody realizing it.

And just because someone can disguise as Nanjo doesn't mean they do. It's not really even a hint that someone can disguise as him to be frank. Hints need to be reasonable - there are clear hints of Shkannon (both never appearing in front of Battler at the same time, Kanon's missing body) but there are really no hints at Nanjo being someone in disguise.

Besides that I would be extremely angry if this is a solution to the murders. Shkannon I can understand, but this is just too much.

[rogerpepitone]

Something I remembered when I was thinking things over:
In episode 1, Shannon's body is hidden at the back of the shed, and Hideyoshi's one of the few people to take a close look.
IIRC, in episode 3, Shannon's body is hidden behind a couch, and Hideyoshi's the one who goes to get a close look.
Any chance this can be worked into a hypothesis?

As for the marks on Natsuhi's door:
Ep 1: They appeared sometime between when Natsuhi went to sleep and when Genji woke Natsuhi up.
Ep 2: They appeared sometime before Battler, Rosa, Maria, and Genji went up to the room. Genji probably went there in the morning, to try to wake Natsuhi, and may have passed there during his rounds later.
Ep 3: They may or may not have appeared. Nobody is recorded as having been there.
Ep 4: They did not appear.
Ep 5: They did not appear.

Spoiler for When they appeared:

Hypothesis a: They appeared at a different time in episodes 1 and 2.
Hypothesis b: They appeared at the same time; Genji deliberately omitted that fact.
Hypothesis c: They appeared at the same time; Genji did not notice them.

Remember in Episode 1, Genji didn't notice the marks until Natsuhi pointed them out? Initially I thought it was a case of blood smears on the doorknob, which could be overlooked. I was surprised when the manga and anime showed hand prints all over the door. How could he miss that?

Genji has a form of color blindness, and is unable to see (or at least has trouble seeing) red on brown. He's been hiding it for all these years.

This helps explain the second twilight in episode 1. The magic square was already there when they went to the room the first time; Genji was just unable to see it. Kanon either had the same deficiency, or else he deliberately lied.

I don't buy the suggestion that

Spoiler:

an innocent Hideyoshi could identify Erika's corpse as Shannon. Shannon has short brown hair and Erika has long purple hair. And why would Shannon plow Kyrie's, Rudolf's, etc. faces in first? What's the point of smashing their faces and leaving Erika's intact? Hideyoshi had about 10 hours to think over what he saw in the shed.

[chronotrig]

I don't buy the suggestion that

Spoiler:

an innocent Hideyoshi could identify Erika's corpse as Shannon. Shannon has short brown hair and Erika has long purple hair. And why would Shannon plow Kyrie's, Rudolf's, etc. faces in first? What's the point of smashing their faces and leaving Erika's intact? Hideyoshi had about 10 hours to think over what he saw in the shed.

If you're talking about my theory, I think I've explained all of those points.

Originally Posted by Used Can

Spoiler:

You're forgetting the "On" servants: Renon, Junon, Reion and Manon. They've also got mentioned twice in the games. Well, I think Reion has only got mentioned once.

Anyhow, can you explain the elimination process you're talking about in EP3? I'm not sure I understand your point.

Spoiler for On servants:

Good point. Reinon cannot count because she was only mentioned in an answer arc. For Manon and Renon, we get nothing but their names mentioned once and they are a few among many servants. Impossible for them to have any significance by the same reasons that pinpoint Nanjo (I'll clarify what I mean in a second).

For Runon, however, we have a bit of a story. It seems that Sayo really didn't like Runon at all. By the way, there has been a story about a servant getting hurt so bad they had to quit because they'd insulted Beatrice. If Shkanon is Beatrice, this servant is almost certainly Runon. Looked at this way, it seems to me that Runon would have a grudge against Sayo as well. Maybe she is Nanjo's granddaughter (if Nanjo's granddaughter happens to be the child from 19 years ago, this makes perfect sense).

Spoiler for Why only Nanjo?:

Now, to clarify why I can eliminate everyone else (barring certain counter theories). Actually, it isn't fully confirmed in red until EP6, but every single person who we thought was on the island has at least one red statement that couldn't be true unless they actually are on the island (except Kinzo, of course). At the end of EP3, every one of these people has their deaths proclaimed in red except for Eva, Battler, and Jessica. Battler sees Eva shooting him, and he is the detective so he must die here. Unless Jessica survives (unlikely, since she's trapped in a bomb and blind) or there is a second Shkanon-type theory, Eva is the only survivor on the island.

So, if there is anyone in disguise on the island, they must die in 1986 (unless they're Jessica). Therefore, anyone we see in the 1998 part of EP4 cannot have been on the island on that day.

How can Beato convey a truth to Battler that she does not know. Do you know how utterly pointless that makes everything. The Game Master cannot make a board unless they have an understanding of the game they are setting up. You cannot set up a chess game if you do not know where the pieces must be positioned at the start of the game.

Maybe this will clear things up a bit.

Spoiler for size:

• In 1998, Nanjo's granddaughter is the only person who is confirmed to have died and who wasn't supposed to have been on the island.
• Funnily enough, she has the exact same name as one of the characters on the island. You don't need any red text tricks at all to get her in.
• Even more strangely, "Nanjo" is the only character who is always called by his last name and who survives the first twilight in EP3.
• In EP3's meta-world, everything after the first twilight is controlled by Eva-trice, someone closely associated with Lambda.
• Lambda is also the voice of the "man from 19 years ago", who is probably the same general age as Nanjo's daughter.
• If Battler's theory is true and the deaths of the corpses were faked, then someone, presumably the man from 19 years ago, finished the hidden corpses off.
• In other words, in both EP3 and EP5, we have proof that someone always finishes carrying out the murders if Sayo doesn't.
• If Beato is the true master of this game, then why does Lambdadelta have full power over her?
• If Beato is the true master of this game, then why does she ask Battler "Who am I?" in the end?
• Read my EP1 theory. The entire thing works perfectly if you assume that Nanjo is himself instead of his granddaughter. Even if you don't know the motive, you can still move his piece.
  
• Finally, this might explain Beatrice's hopelessness better than any theory I've seen presented. Even if she finds a solution where her piece self doesn't carry out the murders, the bomb always prevents her from getting a happy ending. The reason she created this game and pushed Battler so hard was so that she could get his help in solving this mystery. Presumably, Lambda put enough restrictions on her that she couldn't find an easier way.

So yeah, this theory's still shaky on many levels, but you have to admit, it does explain a lot.

[battlebattler]

Spoiler for Epi5:

question here: why would Lambda fake a voice if that helps Bern? Because by doing that, it made Natsuhi as the culprit at the end.

[Marion]

# If Beato is the true master of this game, then why does Lambdadelta have full power over her?
# If Beato is the true master of this game, then why does she ask Battler "Who am I?" in the end?

Because Lambda was the one who promoted her to become the Endless Witch. I wouldn't be surprised if Lambda told Beatrice to start a game as twisted as this and is holding that over her head (EP 3 tea party) and is preventing Beato from leaving.

As for the "Who am I?" part - she is asking Battler to solve the final riddle. I'm pretty sure she knows who she is.

And honestly just because a theory explains things doesn't mean it's entirely logical or for that matter reasonable. Think about Natsuhi - Erika put up very good points with the trial and made Natsuhi look like a reasonable culprit. Even Battler wasn't sure of it completely until Virgilia said Natsuhi wasn't the culprit in red. But just because the murders can be explained with Natsuhi being the culprit doesn't mean it's reasonable in the slightest if you consider how much she loves both Krauss and Jessica.

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Marion

Because Lambda was the one who promoted her to become the Endless Witch. I wouldn't be surprised if Lambda told Beatrice to start a game as twisted as this and is holding that over her head (EP 3 tea party) and is preventing Beato from leaving.

As for the "Who am I?" part - she is asking Battler to solve the final riddle. I'm pretty sure she knows who she is.

And honestly just because a theory explains things doesn't mean it's entirely logical or for that matter reasonable. Think about Natsuhi - Erika put up very good points with the trial and made Natsuhi look like a reasonable culprit. Even Battler wasn't sure of it completely until Virgilia said Natsuhi wasn't the culprit in red. But just because the murders can be explained with Natsuhi being the culprit doesn't mean it's reasonable in the slightest if you consider how much she loves both Krauss and Jessica.

However, unless there is another theory that's more reasonable, the sole theory that explains everything is the best option out there. Mine doesn't explain quite everything, but if you don't like it, I'm challenging you to find one that explains more. The worst that happens to me is I get proven wrong but find out the correct answer, or I can use any opposing theory to strengthen mine. That's how the game is played.

My theory explains the meta world, the game world, and the motives for the majority of the question arcs (though I haven't written down the details for EP2-4). It has some major flaws, but if these can be worked around, it might make a complete theory eventually.

[ArcticHelm]

A few points I feel I can at least give a say on.

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Spoiler for size:

• If Battler's theory is true and the deaths of the corpses were faked, then someone, presumably the man from 19 years ago, finished the hidden corpses off.
• In other words, in both EP3 and EP5, we have proof that someone always finishes carrying out the murders if Sayo doesn't.
  
  Generally, I was under the impression that everyone just started killing each other over the gold once it was found and the explosion would just finish anyone left.
  
• If Beato is the true master of this game, then why does Lambdadelta have full power over her?
  
  Beato is only a witch because the witch legend is able to circulate with the certainty that the real event is wiped away. Beato is the master of the gameboard, but if the closed off game board does not happen, there is nothing for the witch Beatrice to be master of. If the explosion/whatever doesn't happen it's highly likely what happened would merely be equated with the killer using the name Beatrice. Like it was mentioned, she didn't do the killings for fun or revenge, so I can't honestly believe she'd be happy with that sort of outcome.
  
  Also, the letters, money, messages in the bottle all served to help make the illusion of the witch, a mark that Beatrice actually existed.
  
• If Beato is the true master of this game, then why does she ask Battler "Who am I?" in the end?
  
• Finally, this might explain Beatrice's hopelessness better than any theory I've seen presented. Even if she finds a solution where her piece self doesn't carry out the murders, the bomb always prevents her from getting a happy ending. The reason she created this game and pushed Battler so hard was so that she could get his help in solving this mystery. Presumably, Lambda put enough restrictions on her that she couldn't find an easier way.
  
  Since at this point Beatrice has apparently given up on her original goal, she seems to want Battler to figure out the last mystery: Why if everyone but Battler is dead and there is only one, clearly innocent person he is none the less killed?
  
  Ultimately, I think Beatrice went through all that she did because it was the only way to bring about the conditions possible for Battler to accept her as an individual; thus the witch Beatrice, and not merely some split personality of a clearly tortured individual. I assume when she thought that was no longer possible, she decided to give up on this and just let Battler win and become free of the game.

[blitz1/2]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

If you're talking about my theory, I think I've explained all of those points.

Spoiler for On servants:

Good point. Reinon cannot count because she was only mentioned in an answer arc. For Manon and Renon, we get nothing but their names mentioned once and they are a few among many servants. Impossible for them to have any significance by the same reasons that pinpoint Nanjo (I'll clarify what I mean in a second).

For Runon, however, we have a bit of a story. It seems that Sayo really didn't like Runon at all. By the way, there has been a story about a servant getting hurt so bad they had to quit because they'd insulted Beatrice. If Shkanon is Beatrice, this servant is almost certainly Runon. Looked at this way, it seems to me that Runon would have a grudge against Sayo as well. Maybe she is Nanjo's granddaughter (if Nanjo's granddaughter happens to be the child from 19 years ago, this makes perfect sense).

Spoiler for Why only Nanjo?:

Now, to clarify why I can eliminate everyone else (barring certain counter theories). Actually, it isn't fully confirmed in red until EP6, but every single person who we thought was on the island has at least one red statement that couldn't be true unless they actually are on the island (except Kinzo, of course). At the end of EP3, every one of these people has their deaths proclaimed in red except for Eva, Battler, and Jessica. Battler sees Eva shooting him, and he is the detective so he must die here. Unless Jessica survives (unlikely, since she's trapped in a bomb and blind) or there is a second Shkanon-type theory, Eva is the only survivor on the island.

So, if there is anyone in disguise on the island, they must die in 1986 (unless they're Jessica). Therefore, anyone we see in the 1998 part of EP4 cannot have been on the island on that day.

Maybe this will clear things up a bit.

Spoiler for size:

• In 1998, Nanjo's granddaughter is the only person who is confirmed to have died and who wasn't supposed to have been on the island.
• Funnily enough, she has the exact same name as one of the characters on the island. You don't need any red text tricks at all to get her in.
• Even more strangely, "Nanjo" is the only character who is always called by his last name and who survives the first twilight in EP3.
• In EP3's meta-world, everything after the first twilight is controlled by Eva-trice, someone closely associated with Lambda.
• Lambda is also the voice of the "man from 19 years ago", who is probably the same general age as Nanjo's daughter.
• If Battler's theory is true and the deaths of the corpses were faked, then someone, presumably the man from 19 years ago, finished the hidden corpses off.
• In other words, in both EP3 and EP5, we have proof that someone always finishes carrying out the murders if Sayo doesn't.
• If Beato is the true master of this game, then why does Lambdadelta have full power over her?
• If Beato is the true master of this game, then why does she ask Battler "Who am I?" in the end?
• Read my EP1 theory. The entire thing works perfectly if you assume that Nanjo is himself instead of his granddaughter. Even if you don't know the motive, you can still move his piece.
  
• Finally, this might explain Beatrice's hopelessness better than any theory I've seen presented. Even if she finds a solution where her piece self doesn't carry out the murders, the bomb always prevents her from getting a happy ending. The reason she created this game and pushed Battler so hard was so that she could get his help in solving this mystery. Presumably, Lambda put enough restrictions on her that she couldn't find an easier way.

So yeah, this theory's still shaky on many levels, but you have to admit, it does explain a lot.

I am sure that Lambda is the TRUE master of the gameboard. Afterall, she did "lend" it to Beato, maybe she didn't explain the whole truth to her while doing so?

[Used Can]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Spoiler for size:

In 1998, Nanjo's granddaughter is the only person who is confirmed to have died and who wasn't supposed to have been on the island.

Spoiler:

I remember that. That was on Nanjo Masayuki's TIP. It said she had died from some illness. I'm sure, had she gone to Rokkenjima and died there, she'd be accounted as missing, no?

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Spoiler for size:

Funnily enough, she has the exact same name as one of the characters on the island. You don't need any red text tricks at all to get her in.

Spoiler:

You mean Nanjo's granddaughter? I don't remember anything like that. When was it said she shared her name with one of the people in Rokkenjima?

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Spoiler for size:

Even more strangely, "Nanjo" is the only character who is always called by his last name and who survives the first twilight in EP3.

Spoiler:

Nanjo has never died during a 1st Twilight. In fact, he always dies very late in the game. In EP5 and EP6 he didn't even die.

[imaginari]

Originally Posted by Marion

And honestly just because a theory explains things doesn't mean it's entirely logical or for that matter reasonable.

Yeah, I thought that chronotrig was trying some sort of twisted logic experiment at first, but now I'm confused at how far he's been taking it. I'm sure that having an ill person do an impossible impersonation for no reason violates more Knox rules than it satisfies. And it's silly.