The speed of the plot (spoilers)

[roriconfan]

This is a rather opaque aspect of all anime in general. The speed of how things move forward in the story (edit: more accurately called pacing) can make all the difference between enjoying a series or not.
Yet, I came to see many anime where the speed is not taken into consideration by most and after awhile it is like time freezes for the viewer and the amount of episodes it takes to show something doesn't matter for the fan.
I understand how a lovable anime can be captivating and watching it is all a viewer likes to do, no matter how slow it gets. After all, older anime have a much slower pace than modern yet that is not the main reason that makes them better or worse. But on the other hand, many less enthousiastic people tend to drop a good series for taking its time to show something.
This can become very obvious in series with erratic pace. Like, times it goes too slow and times it goes too fast.

The abuse of such a case can lead to a series dropping all sense of progression and recycling itself in plotless storytelling if it has such high ratings that it will sell no matter if it actually had a story to tell. Something like "give them a premise as a lure and when they bite it, drop it and just do anything that pops in your head."

Another case is when a series loses its direction and slows down progression in an attempt to figure out how to go on. And then it is about to end and the scriptwritters have so many sidestories to wrap up, they end up running the story on nitro, causing a mostly messy and rushed conclusion.

Another weird situation is when you blend dialogue centered plot with action centered plot. Series based on dialogues tend to spend entire episodes with talking and zero progression while action series have a generally much faster pace. Yet, in the anime fashion the cast can talk while fighting and that creates a very weird result.

Any thoughts on this phenomenon?

[lubczyk]

The problem with most anime that it's filler. Most series, or even OVAs for that matter, have a strong beginning that slows down within 2 or 3 episodes only to pick up within the last 3 episodes. They don't have enough plot or budget for 26 episodes, so they resort to slice-of-life, school-romance-comedy, and monster-of-the-week to fill up the season.

If you cut out the filler, most series would be like 6 episodes long. Therefore, filler is used to save the budget and thus it slows down the plot.

[roriconfan]

^ Money wise, entertainment unwise.

[Xion Valkyrie]

Originally Posted by lubczyk

The problem with most anime that it's filler. Most series, or even OVAs for that matter, have a strong beginning that slows down within 2 or 3 episodes only to pick up within the last 3 episodes. They don't have enough plot or budget for 26 episodes, so they resort to slice-of-life, school-romance-comedy, and monster-of-the-week to fill up the season.

If you cut out the filler, most series would be like 6 episodes long. Therefore, filler is used to save the budget and thus it slows down the plot.

Except some manga->anime series have more than enough plot to go around, but they still add a ton of filler and cram everything in for the last couple of episodes, and then giving it some made up ending.

[Haladflire65]

And there's series that rush to fit in manga material because they have a set number of episodes, mainly FMA:B in the first 20 or so eps.

[RWBladewing]

Originally Posted by Xion Valkyrie

Except some manga->anime series have more than enough plot to go around, but they still add a ton of filler and cram everything in for the last couple of episodes, and then giving it some made up ending.

This is pretty much the reason I thought Chrome-Shelled Regios was so bad. Except that they actually didn't manage to cram everything in and there were more questions left at the end than at the beginning. I guess some of those will be answered in the supposed second season but this show definitely had the worst plot progression I have ever seen, except for maybe InuYasha. (Yeah, most of the larger shounen series like Naruto and Bleach have a pretty slow plot progression too but at least the viewer has an idea of what the plot is; Regios didn't seem to even have an actual plot at all until the last couple episodes.)

[james0246]

It's called pacing, and it is pivotal to storytelling. The rise and fall of 'action' in a story is intricately tied with the pace by which the story is told: A slow pace can ruin an action/adventure story, and a fast pace can ruin a quite drama/romance etc.

That being said, what is the point of this thread? To discuss why pacing is important?

[roriconfan]

Originally Posted by james0246

That being said, what is the point of this thread? To discuss why pacing is important?

Yes, as well as if it matters a lot for most viewers.

[SamKajam]

lol actually, I was just about to start a thread similar to this.

I'm watching monster because i've heard it's really good, but god damn it's pacing is slow. Well... at least for the first 2 episodes. I don't even know what genre it is yet.

so I guess my question is... when does it start getting "good"?

[roriconfan]

Originally Posted by SamKajam

so I guess my question is... when does it start getting "good"?

Lol man, Monster gets slower as it goes on until it runs on nitro in the last episodes and still doesn't feel complete. And of course you are never told how the hell everything happened like that. Yohan is a supernatural Houdini yet everyone thinks this show is realistic.
The erratic speed I was reffering to makes Monster a fine example. I was bored! Really, I was. Quite fast too. It was mostly the atmosphere and the visuals that mattered and not the story, which by the way was nicely planned out but became way too far fetched after the first half.
70+ episodes were an overkill! 24 would be great.
Yet as I said, most didn't care about that.

[Crontica]

Originally Posted by RWBladewing

This is pretty much the reason I thought Chrome-Shelled Regios was so bad. Except that they actually didn't manage to cram everything in and there were more questions left at the end than at the beginning. I guess some of those will be answered in the supposed second season but this show definitely had the worst plot progression I have ever seen, except for maybe InuYasha. (Yeah, most of the larger shounen series like Naruto and Bleach have a pretty slow plot progression too but at least the viewer has an idea of what the plot is; Regios didn't seem to even have an actual plot at all until the last couple episodes.)

Chrome was bad because they decided to abandon the plot, turn the main character to a friendship-nakama-idiot who wouldn't even get where he is today if he didn't have the resolve to attain power, and then filled the rest of the arc's with BS moe moe harem service. THEY RUINED SUCH A BEAUTIFUL CAST FOR NOTHING!

[RWBladewing]

Originally Posted by Crontica

Chrome was bad because they decided to abandon the plot, turn the main character to a friendship-nakama-idiot who wouldn't even get where he is today if he didn't have the resolve to attain power, and then filled the rest of the arc's with BS moe moe harem service. THEY RUINED SUCH A BEAUTIFUL CAST FOR NOTHING!

That more or less plays into what I was getting at. Half the episodes were about either the girls trying to get Layfon's attention (with the highlights of the episode discussion threads here being stuff like "wow Felli blushed in this episode that is so moe") or a very annoying minor character (Haia) wangsting over his pointless grudge that ended up being nothing more than an excuse for Layfon to show his power and total superiority over everyone AGAIN.

Meanwhile I was left wondering what was going on with the filth monsters, the wolf guys, the guy from another dimension (yeah I know his name is Dixerio but someone who just watched the anime probably wouldn't as I think they mentioned it a grand total of twice), and the Engrish segments that appeared seemingly at random. None of which they even made an attempt to explain until the second or third to last episode. Poor pacing at its finest.

It's also pretty funny that several characters who appear in the OP aren't introduced until this episode either and most of them have about 1-2 lines of dialogue max. And Haia, who half the series ended up focusing on, doesn't even appear in the OP at all.

[SamKajam]

Originally Posted by roriconfan

Lol man, Monster gets slower as it goes on until it runs on nitro in the last episodes and still doesn't feel complete. ...

ooo thanks for the warning bro haha, looks like I'm dropping this. 5 episodes killed me with boredom. I don't think I can take 70.

anyway, on topic. Yeah. Completely agree with you. Though pacing affects everything. Not just anime, but novels, movies, pretty much any form of entertainment.

I think for the most part, directors (or whoever controls pacing) do a good job in keeping the plot going at a good speed. Honestly monster is the only complaint with pacing I've had that I can remember.

manga adaptions are a different story though, they go slowly because they kinda have to sometimes. why can't they just wait for the damn manga to finish first?

edit:
btw roriconfan... was this topic by any chance created because of a stoner epiphany? lol just wondering

[Haladflire65]

^ Really? I loved Monster. The pacing wasn't bad at all - enough things kept happening in most of the episodes to keep me watching. None of it was filler, which really impressed me, and the story was so intricately plotted that I think 74 episodes were pretty much right. Monster's a series that had to go slow - there's so much information and stuff happening that something like 25 episodes would have been a crammed little mess. Maybe 50 would have been okay.

[roriconfan]

Originally Posted by SamKajam

btw roriconfan... was this topic by any chance created because of a stoner epiphany? lol just wondering

If I knew what a stoner epiphany is, I could reply...

Originally Posted by Haladflire65

^ Really? I loved Monster. The pacing wasn't bad at all - enough things kept happening in most of the episodes to keep me watching. None of it was filler, which really impressed me, and the story was so intricately plotted that I think 74 episodes were pretty much right. Monster's a series that had to go slow - there's so much information and stuff happening that something like 25 episodes would have been a crammed little mess. Maybe 50 would have been okay.

Meh, most of the storylines were not really needed from my point of view. I mean, lol, Johan traveled in all the world doing the same shit. As for the info overflow, they still never explained HOW he did what he did with the brainwashing thing.

A few vivid examples of erratic pace I can think of:
Inuyasha: After 30 episodes, there is no progression other than pointless power-ups.
Naruto: Slows more and more to the point of making even important events to feel boring.
Bleach: Lol, it turned from the Twilight Zone into Pokemon.

On the other hand, One Piece feels great despite taking its sweet time to tell the story as well. The comedy helps a lot and so does the really huge cast and the returning characters from previous arcs.

[idiffer]

i think there is a correlation between pacing and atmosphere of an anime, so to speak.
if it has atmosphere, its gonna be dead slow, and chances are people are gonna go crazy about it.
the problem is, anime nowadays has neither atmosphere nor good pacing (slow, fast. doesnt matter.)
flcl is the only anime known to me which succesfully combined atmosphere and fast pacing....
personally, i would prefer if all the unnecesary crap was left out. (filler and the like).
sorry for saying smth weird...

Spoiler for roriconfan:

are you the same roriconfan from anidb, who writes reviews?
if so, i love your reviews)).

[WanderingKnight]

The worst shows are those who go (badly) batshit insane in the last few episodes and leave you with a completely meaningless plot which builds upon nothing previously discussed in the series (hi there DtB 2).

The best shows are those who go (nicely) batshit insane in the last few episodes and leave you with a well-rounded plot that actually wants to tell you something other than "Some flashy shit happened. Bad guys died. Good guys lived on happily everafter" (sup NGE).

C/D?

(WARNING: This post is filled with irony and might actually not be completely serious. But then again, I'm not completely joking either).

[MrChilly]

Well the speed of the plot from my point of view can make or break a show in a way. Since Monster was brought up and I've watched a few of the eps, if it had gone any faster it would have lost me in some aspects on whats going on.

Others like oooh....lets say Dragon Ball Z, That could have been fast forwarded quite a bit. nothing like watching overly muscled men almost bust a blood vessel powering up for two episodes = /

In conclusion, If its a plot that needs extra attention to detail or so, like a mystery or suspense, I expect a slower plot line. In a action based show generally I expect a normal pace at first but during the battles they should not take half the session, sarcasm there, to finish off one battle. That to me just takes the hype out of watching it and forgetting about viewing it again.

[roriconfan]

Originally Posted by idiffer

Spoiler for roriconfan:

are you the same roriconfan from anidb, who writes reviews?
if so, i love your reviews)).

I am. Thank you.

Heck, let's bring all those episodic series into this. Series like Mononoke or Mushishi have no overal story. They are episodic and that is that. The amount of episodes you can watch before starting to feel bored is completely objective. I still like Sayonara Zetsubo despite its storyless take while I know people who grew bored with its theme. All I can say is that the presentation slightly differs from episode to episode and that makes all the difference for me.
And I can't say that about Casshern Sins, another generally episodic series which had a slight feel of progression. I got bored. The themes were more or less the same and nothing really changed with the course of the episodes.
Then there is Ergo Proxy which I liked exactly because any one of those mid episodes was like a different world of its own. I can say the same about Kino no Tabi, which felt a lot different in each arc, despite having the same themes.
Variety is the spice of life for me and as long as a series is storyless, I don't get bored if it slightly changes along the way. In this case, pacing is not an issue for me.

[james0246]

^

pacing is not an issue for me.

That is impossible. Even if you ignore, or at least place less emphasis on, the general pace used to tell a story (i.e. the presentation of exposition/information and character development, etc), that still doesn't mean that you are ignoring the pace of the episode in question. Unless you are watching a show that is just one shot and the camera never moves (which can still be controlled by a strict pace), then you are watching a show where pace is being used to tell the story, because...editing is pacing. Any time there is a cut or movement of the camera, then the pace of the show is being altered (hopefully to better suit whatever the current story may be, but that is sadly not often the case); and any time the 'actors' move, the pace is being altered; hell, even a pause during a conversation is an issue of pacing. Pace is the heart beat of the animal that is any form of story. Without pacing, you simply have information/statistics without context that, consequentially, mean very little.

So, pacing is always "an issue".