[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Ronove]

Just a very odd (and probably queer) theory, but if Shkanon is real... then this must mean this:

- George is gay or Jessica is a lesbian.

Battler saw Shannon and Kanon but never together. If Kanon/Shannon was a crossdresser/bisexual, it would be more interesting. However, it wouldn't explain why Shannon/Kanon would want to go to that limit.

[Smeckledorf]

Red truth in more than one way cuts down the shKanon theory. Especially the one that says no one would misidentify Kanon in the second episode, I think.
Also, I would how shKanon would be a he because that would be one flat-chested she seeing as you can't really hide breasts on Kanon's body.

[Nontype]

Originally Posted by Marion

I still maintain that a baby falling off such a high cliff and living is impossible. Especially a little baby. I also see no reason to hide the death from Natsuhi either. Its not like they would have given her it again if it was alive after all

Need I remind you of the definition of "Miracles?"

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Smeckledorf

Marion I don't think you see why people are arguing the point but let me get back to what you asked me.
No, I do not think Battler is the grandson of a different Kinzo, matter of fact I think chances are that he is Kyrie's son. However, I do not think it is correct to write out the possibility that he is the child from 19 years ago. Beatrice pulling only one dirty trick? Do you remember episodes 2-4? There were dirty tricks EVERYWHERE. My point about the red truth around Kinzo is Beatrice often gives out red truths that can be interpreted in more than one way.

The point everyone is arguing is to keep the options open. Natsuhi was only told that the child died but people are told a lot of things.

Please read back the section of the sin. Beatrice was clearly upset and just wanted to leave. Bern and Lambda refused, so she had to make it look like Battler wasn't eligible. We all know that Asumu not being his mom has no effect on him being Kinzo's grandson, as long as Rudolf is the father, so why add on to that. Beatrice wasn't trying to major troll him at that point - she just didn't care anymore.

Originally Posted by Nontype

Need I remind you of the definition of "Miracles?"

And need I remind you of the basic laws of physics. As TTR said, its impossible for that baby to be alive. besides with bern around i doubt anybody gets a miracle

[Tyabann]

Originally Posted by Ronove

Battler saw Shannon and Kanon but never together. If Kanon/Shannon was a crossdresser/bisexual, it would be more interesting. However, it wouldn't explain why Shannon/Kanon would want to go to that limit.

I don't think Jessica or George have seen them together prior to Ep5, either, but I could be wrong. (Although Jessica has seen Kanon's corpse, supposedly.)

The idea is that Shannon/Kanon have some kind of variant of DID, also.

Originally Posted by Smeckledorf

Red truth in more than one way cuts down the shKanon theory. Especially the one that says no one would misidentify Kanon in the second episode, I think.

"No one would mistake a different person for Kanon". It's from the Ep4 Tea Party.

...This still works with Shkannon, mind. Notice the "different person" bit. The Shkannnon theory says that they aren't different people.

[andrewshen123]

I was thinking about how Ryukishi said that if you know the truth, you'd be able to predict the order of deaths past the ends of episodes 5 and 6. As far as I can tell, there's no concrete pattern, so I had the idea that maybe in each game the order of deaths is actually the same. It's just an idea at this point; I haven't put that much thought into it. But maybe there's some way to have a set order of death that works with the red truth and the detectives' perspectives.

Just a few thoughts on the matter:

• Very rarely are deaths confirmed in red right after the bodies are found, so that leaves the order of death somewhat fuzzy.
• The detectives don't always confirm the deaths themselves.
• Episode 3, where there was a survivor, may have been an anomaly caused by the epitaph being solved. That's the only thing I can think of right now that could have affected it.
• Episode 5 can be disregarded completely, seeing as nobody's death was proclaimed in red until the 24:00 answer session.

Of course, I could be waaaaaay off here, but it's an alternative solution to the problem of the "predictable" death order. So maybe someone can think of some possible way a constant order works with the facts?

[Nontype]

Originally Posted by Marion

And need I remind you of the basic laws of physics. As TTR said, its impossible for that baby to be alive. besides with bern around i doubt anybody gets a miracle

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_fall#Surviving_falls

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Nontype

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_fall#Surviving_falls

We're not talking about grown people, we're talking about one year olds. Their body structure and bones aren't completely developed and can break easier than the bones of an adult.

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by andrewshen123

Of course, I could be waaaaaay off here, but it's an alternative solution to the problem of the "predictable" death order. So maybe someone can think of some possible way a constant order works with the facts?

Another possibility is that the survivors in EP5 just get killed in the explosion at 24:00 of the second day, assuming there really was such an explosion.

We're not talking about grown people, we're talking about one year olds. Their body structure and bones aren't completely developed and can break easier than the bones of an adult.

Maybe, but it's also possible that the servant's body broke the fall. Plus, remember how vague Natsuhi's memory is on the subject. It almost sounds like she didn't remember pushing the baby off until after the "man from 19 years ago" repeatedly asserted that she'd killed him. It might be true that she exaggerated the height of the cliff in her memory.

[Marion]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Maybe, but it's also possible that the servant's body broke the fall. Plus, remember how vague Natsuhi's memory is on the subject. It almost sounds like she didn't remember pushing the baby off until after the "man from 19 years ago" repeatedly asserted that she'd killed him. It might be true that she exaggerated the height of the cliff in her memory.

I still don't think she even pushed them off - she was clearly under stress and her mind wasn't all together after all the torment she received from Erika. But if its a cliff of the same height that Beatrice II (1967) fell off then I highly doubt the baby lived.

[Nontype]

Originally Posted by Marion

We're not talking about grown people, we're talking about one year olds. Their body structure and bones aren't completely developed and can break easier than the bones of an adult.

What if the servant happened to take most of the impact?

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Nontype

What if the servant happened to take most of the impact?

Originally Posted by TTR

WELL, even if the servant acted as a cushion for the baby, it doesn't cushion the the fact that inertia is in effect when the fall. When the servant falls, her hitting the ground stops her motion, however, it DOES NOT stop the energy she built up falling. That is the energy that ends up breaking her skull, bones, and body.

What about the baby? It is true that some of the energy of the impact would go back to the servant, however the servant is probably giving energy to the baby. How can a baby, not even probably a year old yet, survive the rebound effects of falling off a cliff even when cushioned?

Even if the servant cushioned the fall it doesn't mean the baby wouldn't suffer some type of damage and could possibly die. And again, you can't completely argue that point because its never stated that the servant did cushion it.

[Koi]

just re-read epi 3.
What if the story of a servant severely injured and quit is a hint?
It might be THAT servant.
so, if she survived, no reason why the baby didn't. well, this baby business is just a speculation. Since...No red ever proclaimed anything about their life/death status, nor their connection to the game.
Kumasawa and Genji must know about it since they're the only servants that had worked at that time.

Except Kanon faked his age, he cannot be that baby. He's too young. But he could work together with the real culprit. For example, he called Natsuhi. The voice is said to resemble middle-school boy's voice.

Spoiler for epi 5, Hideyoshi murder:

the culprit probably one of the cousin, since they have no alibi. could be Rosa too... he/she hid somewhere, probably under the bed, and then kill him. did the group search there? if not, it's possible. And then, he/she left after Natsuhi left.

[Used Can]

The whole thing is odd. The servant took a walk through a grove of trees while having a baby in her arms, which should be quite difficult. To add to that, there was a 10 metres tall cliff on the other side, there was a fence and it was rocky below. Natsuhi did mention it was far too convenient that the servant went to that place while carrying the baby and then leaning against the fence. That's why she said that must have been the work of a demon.

If Natsuhi had taken them there personally, then that'd explain everything. However, if the servant went there own her own, then it's indeed a bit odd.

[MeoTwister5]

You guys would be surprised. Infants and neonates have surprisingly high regenerative capabilities. They can in fact survive certain kinds of physical injury better than adults so you can't exactly say that a 1 year old child would fare worse in similar situations than fully grown people.

[ijriims]

Merely from the fact that this 19th man's presence could not be found at all in EP1-4 I could conclude that he (or she) played no role in EP1-4, which meant he just had no importance to the core mysteries.

I am surprised people were still arguing with proponents or opponents of Shkanon theory, Shkantrice theory, Beatrice=XXX theory, "the baby 19 years ago was still alive" hypothesis etc. It is apparent to me this sort of theory would not be disproved completely because either there was not enough information or the red texts could be interpreted in some ways to fit in the theories.

Going through debates with someone who would not change their minds until Ryukishi07 showned them the opposite was delibitating and futile, from my own experience. Rarely the end result was one of the sides will change their opinion unless they made some blatant mistakes. IMO, the more rewarding and useful thing to do was to propose one's own complete theories on Umineko. Maybe we should set up a thread to collect established theories on the game rather than this unassorted spoiler and speculation thread. And people could then compare the theories and maybe got some inspiration.

Anyone agrees?

[Ronove]

Originally Posted by ijriims

Merely from the fact that this 19th man's presence could not be found at all in EP1-4 I could conclude that he (or she) played no role in EP1-4, which meant he just had no importance to the core mysteries.

I am surprised people were still arguing with proponents or opponents of Shkanon theory, Shkantrice theory, Beatrice=XXX theory, "the baby 19 years ago was still alive" hypothesis etc. It is apparent to me this sort of theory would not be disproved completely because either there was not enough information or the red texts could be interpreted in some ways to fit in the theories.

Going through debates with someone who would not change their minds until Ryukishi07 showned them the opposite was delibitating and futile, from my own experience. Rarely the end result was one of the sides will change their opinion unless they made some blatant mistakes. IMO, the more rewarding and useful thing to do was to propose one's own complete theories on Umineko. Maybe we should set up a thread to collect established theories on the game rather than this unassorted spoiler and speculation thread. And people could then compare the theories and maybe got some inspiration.

Anyone agrees?

That speculation thread is for speculation.

Anyways, the problem with this Game is that the detective (and I and maybe several others) don't WANT to suspect the seemingly innocent family members. They may all of a motive, and a super scary troll face, but they seem innocent and nice. It's quite ironic

[musouka]

Originally Posted by ijriims

Merely from the fact that this 19th man's presence could not be found at all in EP1-4 I could conclude that he (or she) played no role in EP1-4, which meant he just had no importance to the core mysteries.

The most important thing about the 19th person's "existence" is Kinzo's reaction, because it's making the pattern implied in EP3 more and more explicit--namely that Kinzo has a pattern of making "cages" in which to trap Beato. By which, I mean that he probably chooses likely children from his orphanage.

That's what I assumed back when reading EP3. The existence of 19th person, provided they exist, just makes that even clearer.

[Ronove]

Hmm... I think people are forgetting that culprit is Beatrice/someone in the family.

If we look back at the beginning (EP1 which has NO magical element), someone gave Maria an umbrella and envelope. Who doesn't have an alibi?

Since it's rainy, one can easily not recognize a person. Not only that, Maria didn't say she actually saw Beatrice in dress and nice hair, but merely someone called that. Could've been someone said "Call me Beatrice." Although this is a broken theory.

Although, whoever gave Maria the umbrella could have been someone different then the one who gave the envelope. Not only that, why didn't the culprit bring Maria in? Maybe the culprit just gave in and heard the family arrive and ran away. So we know that the culprit was probably drying off.

[ijriims]

Originally Posted by musouka

The most important thing about the 19th person's "existence" is Kinzo's reaction, because it's making the pattern implied in EP3 more and more explicit--namely that Kinzo has a pattern of making "cages" in which to trap Beato. By which, I mean that he probably chooses likely children from his orphanage.

That's what I assumed back when reading EP3. The existence of 19th person, provided they exist, just makes that even clearer.

The "19th man" I mean was the one who extorted and manipulated Natsuhi behind the scene, not saying an unknown person sneaking on Rokkenjima besides the 18 people (actually 17) we know.

The discussion before my previous post was debating whether a baby who fell a cliff would survive at all, which in my opinion, was meaningless as nobody from any side can provide conclusive argument, the end result will just be proponents and opponent sticking to their own opinion like before.