The state of anime, are we doomed?

[ZeusIrae]

It’s a weird question to ask on this forum. But I have been thinking about it for a while now. For me, the year 2009 was mostly a failure.
Of course, it could be that I am merely losing interest. I discovered anime in 2003 , it’s hard to believe that I have watched anime on a regular basis for seven years now. I just realized it seconds ago. When you start, everything is new, you discover things, have endless discussions other your favorite shows, etc. And after a while, you discover that most shows obey to simple rules, you class them by type, you become more and more selective until one day you just find something more interesting to do. It’s entertainment after all.
But I think there’s something deeper. Over the years, I have steadily grown more and more annoyed by what I would call “otaku culture” conventions. Why is there so many lolis? Why so much silly fan service ( pantsu and co, you know them…)?And I am barely scratching the surface; there are dozens of conventions of this sort. Things that most people would find outrageous or just plain silly in any other TV show but are somehow accepted because, well, it’s anime people! That’s how it is.
Not all anime is like this obviously. Mushishi, legend of the galactic heroes and even some Naruto episode (yes, really) prove that anime as a medium can aim to some form of beauty on its own. But of course, they will remain the exception, to demand more of these shows would be like asking for a free lunch. Won’t happen…
The question here is not that there are not enough good shows. The real problem is that they are packaged with layers of “otaku culture”, things we have come to regard as normal but are actually a hindrance.
For example, I believe that Code Geass was a great entertainment and certainly wasn’t any more than that. I had a lot of fun watching it.But I think much of the criticism that the show got (aside from its incoherent plot, that’s a given) had to do with the layers of “otaku culture” piled on the baseline plot. Code Geass was highly amusing but it was, for me, despite the silly antics that characterize anime.
I find very often that mildly interesting ideas are ruined just because somebody, somewhere, felt the imperative need to include a meido, a loli and god knows what else. It’s a huge waste of potential. I have always believed that anime was just as respectable as any other medium, but is the culture surrounding it respectable? It’s hard to sell a show, no matter how good the plot is, when the heroin is an over-sexualized loli…..

In other words, I love animation, but I am starting to detest the anime culture.

[Sheba]

Ah, the same old thread that keep crawling back in every anime forums. I'd suggest you to take a pause from the hobby and come back a few years later.

[Vexx]

To the original poster: You're generalizing your own feelings to the entire fan base....

1) Your avatar says you're 23.... the same things may not interest you that did 5 or 10 years ago. Also you're starting to notice the "content recycle" effect of "This stuff is starting to all look alike".
2) You seem to be a fan of one particular group of genre and mistakenly think that comprises the whole of "anime"... this is the most common problem I see in such laments. Your examples show that.
3) There have always been "lolis" (depending on what you think that means.... its a much more restricted part of anime than you might think, drawing nearly grown high school characters in a cute style is not "loli"). There has almost always been "pantsu" moments. They comprise *part* of the spectrum.
4) The "otaku culture" can be embarrassing.... just as the "sci fi" culture or any other geekish culture.

There's still a lot of serious anime out there that applies more to mature tastes: Moribito, Kurozuka, Hataraki Man, Eve no Jikan, Tokyo Mag 8, Spice&Wolf, etc.

Even the obviously "teen" stuff can have more textured plot than "bawdy comedy" or "shouting/posturing" basics -> Toradora!, Gurren Lagann, Honey&Clover, and the ones you mention.

Its like any other medium - you find the strains you like and focus on looking for those. Even amongst subgenre there's always going to be more crap than gems. Saying "anime" is almost like saying "tv" ... its unusual to hear someone say they "like tv".

[Kafriel]

The age of Anime is just like the age of pirates in One Piece...nearing its end, or moving on to a new level, can't tell for sure
Jokes aside, characters can only have so many layers of personality, and certain types of anime favour lolis, fanservice, power levels, punchlines, mastermind plots, etc. The fact that some anime try to mix it all in one does kill the feeling, but I still find most of the anime out there to opt for one kind of audience and stick to the plan, no freestyling when it comes to characters or plot advancement...

[Revenger1589]

This is a thread we certainly haven't seen before.

90% of everything is crap, anime is no exception and never has been.

Edit: I have said this before and I'll say it again, just because people don't talk about certain anime it doesn't mean they don't exist. More than a hundred shows air every year without counting OVAs and movies, just look harder.

[Chiibi]

Hmm I still love the anime culture, ten years and going strong. The only thing I don't love are the negative stereotypes that come with the culture but there are very few cultures that don't have them.

90% of everything is crap, anime is no exception and never has been.

You know, it amuses me when people say that because you very well know nobody has enough time in their lives to experience 100% of ANYTHING...

[ZeusIrae]

Originally Posted by Vexx

To the original poster: You're generalizing your own feelings to the entire fan base....

1) Your avatar says you're 23.... the same things may not interest you that did 5 or 10 years ago. Also you're starting to notice the "content recycle" effect of
There's still a lot of serious anime out there that applies more to mature tastes: Moribito, Kurozuka, Hataraki Man, Eve no Jikan, Tokyo Mag 8, Spice&Wolf, etc.

Which is why I introduced caveats at the beginning of my post. I know there's an age effect. But I was trying to go beyond that. And I don't dispute that there's still interesting stuff being made.

I will try to find a better example. Take Simoun, I love Simoun. But in the first episode the director felt the need to use blatant yuri fanservice to appeal to a particular fanbase. In the process, he also instantly alienated many others where weren't very interested in that type of thing or find it rather tasteless. The show didn't really need it, the premise (shrine maidens fighting a war) could stand on its own and the rest is genuinely interesting.

Even great shows often have some cultural elements specific to anime/manga that makes it embarrassing to show to anyone outside of the fanbase (for example, Kusanagi's outfit in the first season of Gits:SAC ) .

[animeboy12]

Originally Posted by ZeusIrae

Which is why I introduced caveats at the beginning of my post. I know there's an age effect. But I was trying to go beyond that. And I don't dispute that there's still interesting stuff being made.

I will try to find a better example. Take Simoun, I love Simoun. But in the first episode the director felt the need to use blatant yuri fanservice to appeal to a particular fanbase. In the process, he also instantly alienated many others where weren't very interested in that type of thing or find it rather tasteless. The show didn't really need it, the premise (shrine maidens fighting a war) could stand on its own and the rest is genuinely interesting.

Even great shows often have some cultural elements specific to anime/manga that makes it embarrassing to show to anyone outside of the fanbase (for example, Kusanagi's outfit in the first season of Gits:SAC ) .

sigh..............................I can already tell your way of thinking and I can just say it's flawed

Also, YOU were not part of the development of Simoun nor Ghost in the shell
so YOU don't know why certain decisions were made. So unless you have proof or evidence to back it up your Simoun and Ghost in the shell
examples are complete BS

[justsomeguy]

Originally Posted by Revenger1589

90% of everything is crap, anime is no exception and never has been.

This. If you cannot find a show to enjoy, that does not mean the entire medium is going down. I personally don't find any of this season's shows to be worth watching, besides the continuing Railgun, but that's simply a matter of none of the 10% of good shows showing up, not an indication that there will be no more good shows in the future.

[ZeusIrae]

" so YOU don't know why certain decisions were made"
And you don't need to know why, the fact is, they were bad decision. I read several reviews which included negative comments on both occasions (which is why I am using them as example even though they are not perfect). I haven't met anybody who thought these elements were important and necessary to the show. Without question, they posed more problems than they were worth. In the case of Gits:SAC, the original manga may have played a role in the decision, but the fact that by the second season it was removed shows that people were aware it was a bad decision.

And if my way of thinking is wrong, please tell me why.

[Revenger1589]

Originally Posted by ZeusIrae

I haven't met anybody who thought these elements were important and necessary to the show.

Well, you got one here.

The supposed "yuri fanservice" in the first episode of Simoun was present in every single episode and was an integral part of the show, if people don't like to see girls kissing the anime is obviously not for them. Also, if someone is going to dislike this episode is going to be thanks to the huge amount of unknown terminology used that made things very hard to follow.

In the GITS case, Motoko's clothes are part of who she is, anime isn't live-action and character design has a much bigger relation to personality. If anything, the way she dressed in the second season was more out of character.

[Triple_R]

ZeusIrae - I don't share all of your viewpoints, but I do share a fair number of them. I think that I know where you're coming from on the overall issue, too.

I think that anime is a bit too caught up with its own "internal lore", shall we say.

In other words, there are certain character designs and character types and anime conventions that are to anime what technobabble is to Star Trek. Insofar as these character designs and types are unique to a particular genre within anime (magical girl anime, for example) then that's fine. But I think that there comes a point when the internal lore overtakes vast swaths of genre diverse anime as a whole, making anime less accessible to people who might like to simply watch good stories in an animated presentation, but aren't all that interested in the internal lore of anime.


Ideally, Vexx would be right - anime would simply be an entertainment medium (like live-action TV) instead of an entertainment genre.

Various anime shows would be as distinct from one another as game shows are from daytime soaps are from reality TV shows are from half-hour comedy sitcoms are from late night talk shows are from cop/legal/drama shows.


However, I don't think that this is the case. I don't see that level of diversity within modern anime, to be frank. There are an awful lot of anime conventions, or character types, or particular character designs, that seems to be common threads running through vast swaths of anime shows. This makes anime seem less like an entertainment medium, and more like an entertainment genre.


An awful lot of animes throws in a catgirl, or throws in a meido, or throws in a loli, or throws in a tsundere, to a story that could function perfectly well with out it (or possibly even function better with out it).

Now, a good story can have one or more of the above, but it doesn't always need them.


Now, I don't have anything in particular against catgirls, or meidos, or lolis, or tsunderes... but like pretty much any character type, you can get tired of them over time.


I don't want to overstate these criticisms, because anime is still significantly more diverse than what North American cartoons are, to its great credit.

However, it's unfortunate, in my view, that so much anime revolves around its own internal lore, or unique "anime culture" as ZeusIrae puts it. Its unfortunate because I've seen enough anime to know that Japan has the skill and talent within its country to make good animated stories involving all sorts of different casts involving all sorts of different ideas and themes.


What I'd like to see is more anime like the Miyazaki films. Animes that simply seek to tell good stories through an animated medium, with out respect to the internal lore of anime.


Anime isn't doomed, in any event, though.

However, it may forever be stuck in a fairly small niche. That would be regrettable, in my view, because I think that anime has the potential to gain real respect and acceptance for the animation entertainment medium as a whole.

[animeboy12]

Originally Posted by ZeusIrae

" so YOU don't know why certain decisions were made"
And you don't need to know why, the fact is, they were bad decision. I read several reviews which included negative comments on both occasions (which is why I am using them as example even though they are not perfect). I haven't met anybody who thought these elements were important and necessary to the show. Without question, they posed more problems than they were worth. In the case of Gits:SAC, the original manga may have played a role in the decision, but the fact that by the second season it was removed shows that people were aware it was a bad decision.

And if my way of thinking is wrong, please tell me why.

again you're assuming things, just because certain elements are removed or not there in a second season doesn't mean they were bad ideas, or even if it was you and I wouldn't know that. What's the point in trying to use your perspective in the trying to backup your argument? I can't help if you flock to anime series you don't, after all in should be that hard to avoid the majority of anime is not the otaku moe, or ecchi genre nor do they have those element so quite frankly your assessment of the status of anime comes from you've watched and seen. So why take a broad general of the anime series that have come out.

[0utf0xZer0]

Originally Posted by ZeusIrae

Even great shows often have some cultural elements specific to anime/manga that makes it embarrassing to show to anyone outside of the fanbase (for example, Kusanagi's outfit in the first season of Gits:SAC ) .

Okay, no offense... but this sort of embarassment about otaku culture is one of the most common traits I've noticed about the anti-otaku culture crowd. For someone like me who seldom if ever tries to recruit my non-anime friends to the hobby, it simply isn't a big deal.

Also, I watched Simoun primarily because I heard it was one of the few really good yuri shows out there. I now own it on DVD.

Also, if someone is going to dislike this episode is going to be thanks to the huge amount of unknown terminology used that made things very hard to follow.

QFT. When I tried to show this at one of my local anime clubs, I didn't receive any complaints about the yuri but quite a few complaints about other aspects of the show. Granted, the result would probably have been different if I had played it for my other anime club, since a number of members of that club fit the "I only like highbrow anime" label.

[animeboy12]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

However, I don't think that this is the case. I don't see that level of diversity within modern anime, to be frank. There are an awful lot of anime conventions, or character types, or particular character designs, that seems to be common threads running through vast swaths of anime shows. This makes anime seem less like an entertainment medium, and more like an entertainment genre.


An awful lot of animes throws in a catgirl, or throws in a meido, or throws in a loli, or throws in a tsundere, to a story that could function perfectly well with out it (or possibly even function better with out it).

Now, a good story can have one or more of the above, but it doesn't always need them.

if you flock to crappy shows you'll find them, I'm going to hve to disagree with you here. I think there is a good deal variety in anime, not that it couldn't use some improvement but there's still something for everyone. Personally I am getting a little bothered by people complain about the lack of variety in anime and list elements that show up in a small portion of anime. If a viewer wants variety them at the very least there should be an effort to seek it out. Not whine because they refuse to leave that bubble of the popular or most talked about anime series.

[ZeusIrae]

"
I don't want to overstate these criticisms, because anime is still significantly more diverse than what North American cartoons are, to its great credit.

However, it's unfortunate, in my view, that so much anime revolves around its own internal lore, or unique "anime culture" as ZeusIrae puts it. Its unfortunate because I've seen enough anime to know that Japan has the skill and talent within its country to make good animated stories involving all sorts of different casts involving all sorts of different ideas and themes.

[...]
However, it may forever be stuck in a fairly small niche. That would be regrettable, in my view, because I think that anime has the potential to gain real respect and acceptance for the animation entertainment medium as a whole."

Exactly my point. A good story shouldn't need all those gadgets. As far as I am concerned, an anime industry that would remain in stasis, closed to the outside world, obsessed with its own cultural norms would be a disaster.

@0utf0xzer0:
Simoun was more than yuri fanservice. Otherwise, it would be "Strawberry Panic in the sky", I think we can agree on the fact that it was far more than that

[Revenger1589]

Originally Posted by animeboy12

If a viewer wants variety them at the very least there should be an effort to seek it out. Not whine because they refuse to leave that bubble of the popular or most talked about anime series.

THIS

God damn, I'm convinced most people think a season consist exclusively of the five most talked about shows. It's not that anime is all about moe, it's just that these are a lot more popular than the rest.

[0utf0xZer0]

@Triple_R:

You don't need to "get" the otaku obsession with maids and lolis to enjoy Code Geass. You don't need to have a catgirl obsession like I do to get why Eruruu's reaction to having her tail touched in Utawarerumono is funny. You don't need to understand the tsundere archetype to enjoy Shana... and I'd actually say that it's probably easier for those who haven't seen Zero no Tsukaima to enjoy Shana just because they haven't seen the Rie Kugamiya tsunloli archetype at its most annoying.

Yamamoto Yutaka (probably most famous either for directing Hare Hare Yukai and the Lucky Star OP or being fired off of Lucky Star after only four episodes) once talked about what he did to make Kannagi (his directorial debut after leaving KyoAni) more accessible to non, or at least less otaku viewers. It had a lot more to do with keeping the humour accessible than character archetypes, the latter of which weren't all that different from other anime comedies.

Simply put, I often get the feeling that the character archetypes are more noticeable to hardcore fans than to newcomers.

Originally Posted by ZeusIrie

Simoun was more than yuri fanservice. Otherwise, it would be "Strawberry Panic in the sky", I think we can agree on the fact that it was far more than that

Which is what kept me coming back once I was a few episodes in. It's not what got me to watch the show.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by animeboy12

if you flock to crappy shows you'll find them, I'm going to hve to disagree with you here. I think there is a good deal variety in anime, not that it couldn't use some improvement but there's still something for everyone. Personally I am getting a little bothered by people complain about the lack of variety in anime and list elements that show up in a small portion of anime.

Dude, it's not a "small portion of anime".

Really, it isn't.

It's much more widespread than that.


And it's not that the shows are necessarily crappy.

It's that perfectly good anime shows somehow feel the need to add superfluous and/or distracting elements to them that they'd be perfectly fine with out.


Let me give you an example here... Shakugan no Shana is a good show with a good storyline on its own merits. It doesn't need pantsu to help sell it; it's popularity is fine... was fine... with out it.

Yet, for some reason, the Shana anime makers threw in bunches of Shana pantsu shots during important climax episodes and climatic Shana/Hecate fights, near the end of each of the first two seasons.

Shana would have been fine with out it, and I knew some Shana fans who were turned off by it. It was an unnecessary element added purely due to anime being too caught up in its own internal lore or culture, imo.


And here's another example... why the heck couldn't the Sacred Blacksmith just do a straightforward sword and sorcery fantasy anime a la Record of Lodoss War?

Record of Lodoss War did perfectly fine with out excessive boob jokes, and other elements of internal anime lore.

If a viewer wants variety them at the very least there should be an effort to seek it out. Not whine because they refuse to leave that bubble of the popular or most talked about anime series.

Look, I'm not talking purely on my own behalf here.

I'm usually not wanting for anime entertainment.


But... I can see how the internal lore of anime is becoming a bit tiresome, and might be hurting the anime industry.

Does every other anime need a talking mascot character? Or a meido? Or a catgirl?


Aren't these elements a wee bit overdone, to be frank?

[Vexx]

Aren't these elements a wee bit overdone, to be frank? __________________

There's no argument that fads sweep an entertainment medium... they come and go. In US TV... a few decades ago, you couldn't spit without hitting a western. Then it was cop-on-the-beat shows, then doctor shows, then detective shows.... forensics, back to cops... blah. Now its incestuous - you can't blink without seeing a variation on L&O/CSI/NCIS.

I think we're already seeing a fade on "moe" and "loli" and would have seen it faster except for the economic crash (... so they stick with safety). It won't go away anymore than mecha or shouting/posturing will "go away". But it will remain an element of many shows.