[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by the_rogue

Hmm, here there might just be confusion on what exactly the pony theory is. Even I thought it was just the theory that Battler broke a promise to Shannon to "return on a white horse" and the portion of her longing for Battler to return became Beatrice. No rape or switching or anything.

And that theory's still pretty valid, if not partially confirmed.

The rape and switching things were actually only partial explanations for certain events in the theory. The core of the theory is that Battler made a promise. it also involves the idea that Beatrice is actually a Title that is inherited from Kinzo's dead mistress not that a magic Beatrice really existed. And that Shannon or somebody else somehow inherited this title. The whole thing with the switch was because Battler said himself that he didn't recognize Shannon when he first saw her. So they thought it might be possible that it was someone else that he made that promise to and Battler just didn't question what Shannon said because he didn't remember it himself.

Spoiler for pony theory:

Like I said earlier I just over reacted and stopped thinking for a minute.

Edit: oh and there is a major flaw in this theory pic. Maria and Manon do not have the same first kanji and even if they did that wouldn't be a hint that Manon is really Beatrice that's just ridiculous.

@Renall: If Beatrice is a title someone has than there is no problem with a non Beatrice mastermind ordering her to kill people. In that case her motive to kill is her obligation to somebody else. For example if the murderer in one episode was Shannon or Kanon they could be following the orders of any the family members or the cousins.

[TsundereCake]

Originally Posted by Judoh

Spoiler for pony theory:

I'm sold on this xDD. What bothered me about Shannon=Beatrice before doesn't bother me as much if you say "Beato III was disguised as Shannon".

*crawls back into cave*

[Marion]

Originally Posted by TsundereCake

I'm sold on this xDD. What bothered me about Shannon=Beatrice before doesn't bother me as much if you say "Beato III was disguised as Shannon".

*crawls back into cave*

Don't be, it pretty much died in EP 6.

There isn't any proof that a switch occurred and the 'hints' are incredibly paper thin.

[TsundereCake]

Originally Posted by Marion

Don't be, it pretty much died in EP 6.

There isn't any proof that a switch occurred and the 'hints' are incredibly paper thin.

Ahhhh DDD:

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by the_rogue

Hmm, here there might just be confusion on what exactly the pony theory is. Even I thought it was just the theory that Battler broke a promise to Shannon to "return on a white horse" and the portion of her longing for Battler to return became Beatrice. No rape or switching or anything.

And that theory's still pretty valid, if not partially confirmed.

When the pony theory was actually being elaborated on 4chan?

because the portion about the promise being broken causing someone to wait six years for Battler's return is at least as old as "4 August 2009" and even then it wasn't that new.

http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...06#post2558506

So the pony theory can't get credit for that unless it's more recent.

[Ronove]

Theory of Erika's Existence:

So apparently, Erika's 'true fate' was being a corpse that was washed upshore, right? Does this apply to all games? If so, then it can bring me to this theory...

At the beginning of EP1, Maria's weird psychotic abilities was because she probably saw the dead corpse of Erika. However, no one else realized this.

Therefore, would Erika being dead count as 'People on the island'? Because since Kinzo is dead, he isn't considered 'a person on the island, that exists'.

Anyone want to deny this?

[Pinguma]

Originally Posted by J the Drafter

This thought is completely out of the blue, so there's no reasoning backing it, but could they have been searching for proof that Natsuhi sent the letters that claimed to be written by Beatrice?

Um, I'm not sure why they would suspect Natsuhi. Shannon may have revealed the truth about Kinzo but considering Natsuhi is meant to be dead, it would mean someone else is sending them. To add, one of the letters said something about their parents being stupid and their bellies being full of sweets. I would think them to suspect Rosa or the 19th person more for being responsible, especially since Rosa was the one who showed the letter to everyone at the dining table.

Originally Posted by speculusfracta

Spoiler for Red Truth/Blue Truth Speculation:

Okay. I've been thinking about this for a while, and I don't know if it's been brought up before (what with ~300 pages), but there's something I just realized...

Red Truth is the power to speak the absolute, certain truth.
Blue Truth is the power to present a possible truth forward, that can only be defeated if it is responded with a Red Truth that makes it impossible.

... Something I noticed about the Witches.

Lady Lambdadelta is known as the "Witch of Certainty". She has the power to 'kill' anyone without fail. She has a reddish, pinkish color scheme.

Lady Bernkastel is known as the "Witch of Miracles", who has the ability to make a miracle happen, no matter how low the probability, as long as the chance is not equal to zero. She has a bluish, purplish color scheme.

Red Truth = Certainty = Lambdadelta?
Blue Truth = Miracle = Bernkastel?

I like it :O. I wonder if they were the ones who invented the texts, if not it is at least probably based off them.

Originally Posted by Judoh

Spoiler for pony theory:

I haven't read EP6 so to me it sounds plausible as a general core idea about six years ago. Though yes, the idea of 'Manon' is as you say.

I know it may not be much, but I do remember that when Shannon uttered those words saying what Battler told her, Jessica starts laughing saying it was just like Battler. George laughs awkwardly, and it made me wonder why they had the sprite for Jessica with the tears sort of in her eyes, first time round it made me think she finds it so funny she had tears in her eyes, but I mean second time around I just thought she found it awkward and was just laughing to cover up her sadness. If it didn't really mean anything, I wish they could have chosen a normal sprite, saving me from this suspicion ¬_¬.

Its the bit about EP4, with the phone call, the english and the whole last few images with suit Beatrice that get me. There are meant to be no more than 17 people on the island, (subject to change), and so this person has to remember what Battler said back then. I don't remember that particular english being uttered within the game until that point (<ye-s I'm fine>!), so if this theory was valid, to me it pointed to Jessica or Shannon, and they do both say they remember what he was like. Shannon only says one piece of english, and then utters she will not repeat anymore due to the person in question (Battler). Battler also assumes Shannon to be one since she says he said that to her. Since he does not remember much about six years ago, at most he would remember his first love was the one he said those words to. I don't think there even had to be any disguises. Shannon does give advice to Jessica, shown in EP2 near the beginning, so I feel she would be the one talking to Suit-Beatrice (Jessica) near the end.

Could it be Jessica instead of it being the 'adopted kid' in the beginning in EP3? She refers to Kinzo as 'Grandfather', and Kumasawa was in charge of her as Virgilia due to the 'ho-ho-ho' and ''Master" (I'm sure people knew this). Hell, I wonder if Jessica is the adopted kid considering Natsuhi had problems with giving birth.

Only thing I don't like is that Jessica is meant to be in love with Kanon, her love of Battler being true would make her appear like some kind of slut...

Unrelated note, any chance that if Shannon = Kanon, Jessica may not know? I don't recall any scenes in the past where she interacted with both of them at the same time.

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Pinguma

Could it be Jessica instead of it being the 'adopted kid' in the beginning in EP3? She refers to Kinzo as 'Grandfather', and Kumasawa was in charge of her as Virgilia due to the 'ho-ho-ho' and ''Master" (I'm sure people knew this). Hell, I wonder if Jessica is the adopted kid considering Natsuhi had problems with giving birth.

Natsuhi found it insulting that she was given an adopted child. That was about a year before Jessica was born.

It's highly unlikely that Jessica was adopted, otherwise I doubt Natsuhi would love her as much as she does.

[Midnight Bliss]

In ep 6 during the duel between Shannon and Kanon, various scenes are shown where Kanon, Jessica, and Shannon are talking together in the garden.
I personally like the Shannontrice theory, and I think there's plenty of hints, so it's more likely than being impossible.
And I don't think Jessica is adopted, either. I doubt a shmion thing like the baby surviving god knows how and switching with her on the day of the conference could ever be possible because it seems unrealistic and kind of dumb imo, and yeah, Natsuhi wouldn't care for her as she does, seeing she threw the adopted child off the cliff and all.

[Kitsu]

And I don't think Jessica is adopted, either. I doubt a shmion thing like the baby surviving god knows how and switching with her on the day of the conference could ever be possible because it seems unrealistic and kind of dumb imo, and yeah, Natsuhi wouldn't care for her as she does, seeing she threw the adopted child off the cliff and all.

Also it was mentioned in Episode 1 that Jessica starts to look a lot like her mother but if that is valid is another question.

[Pinguma]

I meant the adoption being without Natsuhi's knowledge, and that Natsuhi failed to really give birth again but instead of informing her about the dead baby, they decided to switch a baby there since they wanted a successor, and this way she woudn't off it or go nuts - the switch seems to supposedly work for the whole 'Battler not being Asumu's son', but it does sound stupid for the same trick to happen again. Though I woudn't be surprised if Kinzo played a hand in it.

I suppose Jessica's birth is not actually that important though. I was just curious who the child at the beginning of EP3 is since she may be the one claiming to be 'Beatrice' in 1986. I want to avoid blaming some unknown character and hence suspected Jessica.

Originally Posted by Midnight Bliss

In ep 6 during the duel between Shannon and Kanon, various scenes are shown where Kanon, Jessica, and Shannon are talking together in the garden.
I personally like the Shannontrice theory, and I think there's plenty of hints, so it's more likely than being impossible.
And I don't think Jessica is adopted, either. I doubt a shmion thing like the baby surviving god knows how and switching with her on the day of the conference could ever be possible because it seems unrealistic and kind of dumb imo, and yeah, Natsuhi wouldn't care for her as she does, seeing she threw the adopted child off the cliff and all.

Is the scene where they are together in the garden meant to be in the meta-world or on the gameboard? I woudn't trust the meta-world too much... ¬_¬

I didn't mention anything about switching people on the day of the conference, I agree it is unrealistic . I was just suggesting that if the pony theory is viable, then it might be Jessica instead of some unknown child or Shannon due to EP4 events and red, and because Battler does not remember the events of six years ago clearly.

[Midnight Bliss]

Haha, I wouldn't either. xD But not in the meta world, in the gameboard.
Also, something's been bothering me. If the meta world could be I guess imaginary or whatever you'd think it is as it's magic and all, how would Lamda's call and voice (hidden to make it be the man from 19 years ago) reach Natsuhi in ep 5? Or is there nothing wrong with that?
Hmmm, I still think it's Shannon xD I dont know, I just really like the theory of her being Beatrice. It has plenty of backup and evidence and reasons. Though who knows what'll happen. At least we can expect it not to be Mackareltrice. 8D Maybe.

[Tjfarmer]

Originally Posted by Pinguma

Is the scene where they are together in the garden meant to be in the meta-world or on the gameboard? I woudn't trust the meta-world too much... ¬_¬

Right before the duel started, they all had a series of flashbacks of all the fun times they've had. (pretty much) It was the rose garden on the island. There were other scenes then just that, but that one stuck out because it had Jessica, Kanon, and Shannon in it. All the others just head Jessica/Kanon, George/Shannon, George/Jessica etc.

All of the flashbacks took place on the island.

[Pinguma]

I suppose since the gameboard is controlled by the meta-world, Lambda can just control a piece to make the call for her. I think it may have shown Lambda ending the later call on during the gameboard to show that Natsuhi got a call before the family conference, but she normally did not actually get one during the conference, and EP5 is the exception. But who knows.
I do think Shannon dresses up as Beatrice, she might be the one in the dress and Jessica may be suit Beatrice? Or there's just one dressing up...either way I think Beatrice is probably one of those two. Though one dressing up as Beatrice does not mean they are necessarily the one controlling the letters and in charge of everything.
If it was Mackereltrice, I would love Ryukishi.

Thanks for the clarifications. Interesting flashback...so thats why people find Jessica suspicious if Shannon = Kanon...well I've already suspected her, may as well go all the way.

[Midnight Bliss]

That is true. I personally don't believe Beatrice is the culprit, though. She has to do with the murders, whoever she really is, but I don't think the mastermind.
HEH Mackereltrice. Kumasawa showing up and killing everyone with mackerels would be the biggest troll ever, well done Ryukishi! 8D
Well, I personally don't believe in Shkanon. I find it possible, but at the same time a bit impossible, but that's me. I'm hoping ep 7 will clear everything out on the Shkanon matter. I think by now Jessica with how infatuated she is would figure out between all this time that her boyfriend is secretly a girl in disguise, but we'll see, we'll see~

[Pinguma]

She may secretly be a lesbo~, after all this development on Jessica wanting to find a boyfriend, that would be an even bigger troll by Ryukishi...

I dunno why I just kinda hope Shkanon is not true, even though there are so many clues, just feels like a bit of a cop-out... there's also the whole thing in EP3 with the red text for the closed rooms. I also don't like Shannon much, and heard Kanon's awesome in EP6.

[Midnight Bliss]

SHE CANT BE ;-; THEYRE MADE FOR EACH OTHER desu<3
I hope it isn't true, either. Like, it feels like it's all a huge red herring to me for some reason. I agree there are plenty of clues but something makes me feel that it's all a lie to drive us away from the truth. I'd be okay with Kanon=Kinzo, though, as in his name being Kinzo, not him adopted. Even if he wouldn't be blood related and could still be with Jessica... in a way, it'd be sort of....weird.
and also join the club ( * 3 * ) /great dislike towards Shannon and loves Kanon
and yes he is<3

[Tjfarmer]

My personal view on Shkanon is this....

Spoiler for Ep 6 stuff:

On October 4th, Shannon kills Kanon, and creates the illusion of him being there. Kanon has to be dead before Erika arrives on the island (roughly 5pm, right?).

In some EPs, this doesn't happen, in some it does. In example of when it doesn't happen would be in Ep 5. In example of when it does happen would be in Ep 6.

Before Erika arrives, Shannon kills Kanon and hides his body OFF the island. How could she get him off the island? The place where the old shrine and mirror used to be, back in Ep 2. It's off the coast of the island, so could it be counted as part of the island? It's been shown Shannon has the capability to reach there....

So in Ep 5, Kanon never died, Erika was the 17th person.
In Ep 6, Kanon died, and Erika was the 16th person.

Thus 2 red truths can be made... I guess...

I like it better then Shkanon always exists.... but what the purpose of this whole thing existing is left up for speculation....

[Kitsu]

When I think of Kshannontrice the first question that comes to my mind was, why create Kanon?
I've heard several theories and most were just the same...
Shannon+Rape+Kinzo=Kanon
But this surprisingly doesn't work at all

Spoiler for Episode 6:

If Kanon was created for protection of Kinzo, Kanon would certainly not go hunting with Kinzo or play trick etc.

Not to mention that except Beatrice noone ever mentions something about "rape" (Beato implied S&M I think, not rape)
So there has to be a different reason which I still don't quite get.

About Erika's existence and Shkannon

Spoiler for EPisode 6 "utterly crack"-theory:

There are two Rokkenjima's one set in the present, one in the future. In the future setting Erika exists and went to Rokkenjima. In the the presnt one she didn't.
That's why she can say
I'm the 18th guest while Battler and Beato can say There are 17 people
I know it's crack but I wanted to find a solution in which Kanon, Shannon and Erika can exist.

[Renall]

Who someone is said to take after doesn't really say a whole lot. People say Battler takes after Asumu several times in the first few episodes, after all.