[Manga] Chapter 491 Discussion

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

Against Akatsuki, Shika technically wasn't acting as a team leader since he wasn't assigned a mission. He, Chouji and Ino all agreed to take the risk to avenge Asuma. Shikamaru just came up with the plan, which was actually pretty well thought out, he just didn't know Kakuzu's full abilities which admittedly would've screwed them if not for outside help. Still, he wasn't acting gung-ho or recklessly in either situation.

If you don't think trying to leave Konoha in secret to go after 2 Akatsuki with limited knowledge about their abilities and refusing to stand down when given a direct order from their Kage which pushed Kakashi to convince Tsunade to let him go with them because they wouldn't follow orders anyway is not reckless then I don't know what is.
Shikamaru is smart, but he acted stupidly in this instance and would have gotten all his team killed if they hadn't been found out by Tsunade and Kakashi first and without Naruto's providential appearance after that.

Naruto however would never force his comrades to fight against all odds no matter what, in fact is problem seems to be quite the opposite : he can't stand the thought of them dying and would try to do everything by himself.

[Ulquiorra]

So what exactly is Kisame going to do? Stay in that sword and wait? Or attempt to capture one of them? Since his mission was also espionage it makes sense for him to inform Madara of the situation. Zetsu was looking for him. And Kirabi has to die after teaching Naruto.

I wonder who will form the intelligence squad? Probably the five we saw there. Temari, who already works with Konoha. Shikamaru since his dad has better things to do. The Raikage's hot secretary. Ao. And that guy we never saw before from Iwa. They are probably the smartest in each village other than the Kage.

Originally Posted by Hunter

Naruto however would never force his comrades to fight against all odds no matter what, in fact is problem seems to be quite the opposite : he can't stand the thought of them dying and would try to do everything by himself.

Which is why he is reckless on the battlefield which was Gaara's point. He's still a buttmonkey and a long way from being mature enough to be trusted. Madara could easily trap him by putting the Konoha 11 at risk.

[Nite-Wing]

I sincerely doubt Juugo and Suigetsu were killed off screen when Karin is still alive and we got a flashback from her.
I imagine they got captured like Karin and are giving info on sasuke.

[JustRob]

This is getting a bit confusing, but I'll try to back this theory up some more...

Originally Posted by Fukitsu Naruto

-Entering the fray while everyone else has been for for the most part decimated is not a form of assistance? Besides, if the people of Konoha were able to do something against the enemy at the time, Naruto wouldn't have had to take matters into his own hands. Instead, he held the enemy at bay while everyone else recuperated. How that is not assistance in your book I will never know.

I'm confused as to what we're talking about here. James said during the Chuunin exam, and I thought he meant the fight with Gaara, but this gives me doubt.

Originally Posted by Fukitsu Naruto

-Last I checked, Naruto never told them to "go away" as you put it. All he told Tsunade was that he would rather not have to worry about the others and considering the giant gaping hole in the middle of Konoha, I think he was right on the money. Besides that, Naruto was not in his Team 7 squad at the time (as in he was not acting with them on a mission), but was working as a single unit so your "squad" argument is invalid here. And if you still try to justify it then you can consider the frogs Naruto had with them as his "squad", with which he worked in perfect tandem with. So too bad I guess, like it or not, Naruto is far more a team player than you seem to think so.

So is Konoha made up of useless ninjas or what? "I can't fight if I have to worry about weaklings others", that typically sounds like something SSJ3 Goku would say to Yamcha. Konoha has some strong and experienced ninja (as seen with Fu and Torune), and they could have been a big help in the fight with Pain. They could have made the fight easier for him. They could have prevented him from going Kyuubi and destroying even more of the village. Instead, he orders them away, and they agree. Shikamaru would probably be useless even without his broken leg, but his old man and Ino's old man, or that Hyuuga who was with Hinata, any of them could have done something. Sure Tsunade is obvious because she's a typical healer and she was already drained. As for the frogs, I don't think you can call summoned creatures a squad.

Originally Posted by Fukitsu Naruto

-Uh-huh, because that attitude has really never served anyone else in their favour, right? I guess Lee should never have used it to master his own discipline then. Yes, he really is a staunching failure for not knowing when to give up . Please, this argument is just plain ridiculous. How exactly do you know when to give up when you yourself do not know your own limits? In all of the fights we have seen in Naruto, there has always been a way to get through a situation. Your argument was most supported by Part 1 Sasuke and Sakura during their 1st encounter with Zabuza. The 2 wanted to quit and abandon the mission while Naruto's "never give up" attitude allowed them to free Kakashi and succeed. How is that dragging others down hmmm? They do not have to have large chakra pools in order to match Naruto. None need to do that. All they have to do is push and exghaust all limits in order to find a way not known to them before. This is war right now. Using that "never give up" attitude is what will help some no-name ninja soldier return home to his wife and kids. I really fail to see how this is a negative quality. Yes there may be times when a retreat is the best option but so far I have not bore witness to any that Kishimoto presented.

What about his entire quest of saving Sasuke? If you can even call it that because Sasuke didn't want to be saved and left on his own. Naruto was way too stuck up on Sasuke, he still believed he could bring Sasuke back for a long while in part 2. Now some people think that may be "cool" or being a good friend, but realistically he's being a dumbass. It wouldn't even matter if he kept it to himself, but instead he bothers others with his obnoxious-ness, getting himself beat up for nothing and making a fool of himself in front of a Kage.

In battle so far I really can't come up with anything, because every battle so far has been miraculously won by Naruto, or he gained something from the victory, so it's okay that it happened that way. However, think of Kakashi's pops. In the end, everyone hated him because he got his teammates killed, even if he accomplished the mission. I could easily see that happening to Naruto too. Sometimes it's better to give up the mission in order to keep people alive, like Genma said during / after Shikamaru's fight in the Chuunin exam. "Accomplishing the mission means nothing if you get all your teammates killed".

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

I thought Rob was talking more about being unable to control emotions and not thinking things through not sacrificing teammates, sorry if I misread...

As for Shika, I think there's a difference between sacrificing your team and allowing them to enter high risk situations. Ninjas can't escape risk and sometimes leaders are forced into positions where they have to trust in their comrades ability survive against the odds which is what happened to Shika in his first mission.

Sacrificing teammates is not good, however that mission was broken to begin with. Four genins and one chuunin against four experienced chuunin (later 5). It was Tsunade's irresponsible decision, and Shikamaru can't really be blamed. However, instead of fighting all those Sound ninja, they could have tried to just immobilize them and follow the others instead of leaving people behind. If Team Suna hadn't shown up, Kiba and Shikamaru would have been dead (and maybe Lee). Anyway, I suppose sacrificing Chouji and Neji wasn't too bad since they did survive, and I am of the opinion that the mission would have been a succes if Kimimaro hadn't shown up. They retrieved the container and I think they would have been able to get ahead of them far enough and make it back to Konoha. Like I said, this mission was broken to begin with.

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

Against Akatsuki, Shika technically wasn't acting as a team leader since he wasn't assigned a mission. He, Chouji and Ino all agreed to take the risk to avenge Asuma. Shikamaru just came up with the plan, which was actually pretty well thought out, he just didn't know Kakuzu's full abilities which admittedly would've screwed them if not for outside help. Still, he wasn't acting gung-ho or recklessly in either situation.

Shikamaru did plan to go into battle with just the three of them, and the scenario James described is exactly what would have happened. If Shikamaru hadn't been so proud, and asked others for help, there wouldn't have been a problem to begin with.

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

But I see what you're saying. Every character has strengths and weakness including Shika. There's really no example of a "perfect chuunin" in the story.

I don't know if Shikamaru is the perfect chuunin, but in my opinion he's the best leader we've seen so far. But to be fair, none of the others really got a chance to show off their leadership capabilities.

[Noe]

Felt the autograph business was unnecessary there. Looks like the Hachibi's there to help.

[SuigetsuKun]

So what's gonna happen next on that island? Will they meet King Kong?

[Luminion Lancer]

Originally Posted by JustRob

I'm confused as to what we're talking about here. James said during the Chuunin exam, and I thought he meant the fight with Gaara, but this gives me doubt.

-James was referring to the Chuunin (Part 1) days. I was referring to a recent example of the point. Even in Part 1, Naruto would enter the fray when it was clear that those he is associated with could not do anything "productive". Against Gaara for instance, he took over for Sasuke who was standing on thin ice due to his Cursed Seal activating, paralyzing him while Sakura was slowly being crushed by Gaara's arm. And even then, he was right to do that because he alone held the necessary tools to win the fight in the end.

Originally Posted by JustRob

So is Konoha made up of useless ninjas or what? "I can't fight if I have to worry about weaklings others", that typically sounds like something SSJ3 Goku would say to Yamcha. Konoha has some strong and experienced ninja (as seen with Fu and Torune), and they could have been a big help in the fight with Pain. They could have made the fight easier for him. They could have prevented him from going Kyuubi and destroying even more of the village. Instead, he orders them away, and they agree. Shikamaru would probably be useless even without his broken leg, but his old man and Ino's old man, or that Hyuuga who was with Hinata, any of them could have done something. Sure Tsunade is obvious because she's a typical healer and she was already drained. As for the frogs, I don't think you can call summoned creatures a squad.

-You're missing the point here. It is true that Konoha has talented ninja but against the 6 Pain bodies controlled by Nagato, they were borderline useless save for Katsuyu who presented Naruto with limited intel on some of the Pain bodies. Even their intelligence people failed to deduce the location of the man behind the puppets before Naruo mopped the floor with the bodies and found the mastermind's location before them. Yes, he told Tsunade that others would be a hinderance and not only wa he right and listened to, but even others, like Shikaku agreed that it was the smarter option. As for Torune and Fu, they are part of Root ANBU, who remained in hiding with Danzou. They certainly were not going to help Naruto in any way, shape or form. For the frogs, I listed them because you (from my P.O.V) presented yourself as calling Naruto incapable of fighting in a team, that he is not a team player. If you didn't intend to make it seem so than I retract the statement.

Originally Posted by JustRob

What about his entire quest of saving Sasuke? If you can even call it that because Sasuke didn't want to be saved and left on his own. Naruto was way too stuck up on Sasuke, he still believed he could bring Sasuke back for a long while in part 2. Now some people think that may be "cool" or being a good friend, but realistically he's being a dumbass. It wouldn't even matter if he kept it to himself, but instead he bothers others with his obnoxious-ness, getting himself beat up for nothing and making a fool of himself in front of a Kage.

In battle so far I really can't come up with anything, because every battle so far has been miraculously won by Naruto, or he gained something from the victory, so it's okay that it happened that way. However, think of Kakashi's pops. In the end, everyone hated him because he got his teammates killed, even if he accomplished the mission. I could easily see that happening to Naruto too. Sometimes it's better to give up the mission in order to keep people alive, like Genma said during / after Shikamaru's fight in the Chuunin exam. "Accomplishing the mission means nothing if you get all your teammates killed".

-While it is true that Naruto's quest for Sasuke has gotten redundant over the years, he does have a point for 2 specific reasons. For one, Sasuke is like family not only to Naruto but Sakura and Kakashi as well. They are the ones that know him best and are logically the ones that should feel far more responsibility for his departure. However, Naruto is by far the closest to him, even if Sasuke wouldn't admit it. Think of it as the same obligation that Kaneda felt when he had to fight Tetsuo in Akira. Sasuke is Naruto's responsibility so he is naturally his destined opponent. For two, Sasuke, like Naruto, has grown far too powerful and far to quickly for anyone other than Naruto to take on. Even Kakashi was barely able to land anything decisive in their little skirmish a few chapters ago. And now, Sasuke has gotten even stronger (supposedly) with a Narutoverse-style eye surgery. It only makes sense for Naruto to take him on in battle, if for no other reason than to finally decide which among them is the better/stronger ninja.

-I think you are mistaken here. Kakashi's father never sacrificed his teammates. In fact he did the exact opposite. He sacrificed the success of his mission in order to SAVE them instead. However, in the process, he cost Konoha a vital strategy (it is not specified what it was) in some war and thus his name was tarnished to the point where he took his own life in shame. Naruto is the exact replica. He will never, under any circumstance, throw away a teammate/friend away to gain something. To him, his friends are more valuable than either his name, fame, fortune or even his own life. If he were assured/proved to that his death would save the world, he'd do it in a heartbeat, without regret. As long as his friends are safe (which he himself can consider a "family") he does not care what happens to him.

[That Other Ninja]

Pft King Kong would fling his dung at them and be done with the fodder.

[Luminion Lancer]

Originally Posted by That Other Ninja

Pft King Kong would fling his dung at them and be done with the fodder.

-Nah he'll be too busy chillin' with Godzilla to take notice of a psuedo-black rapper and his soon to be student.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by Ulquiorra

So what exactly is Kisame going to do?

He is probably a portal for Madara, i mean Madara can teleport to where he is. Which means akatsuki can be teleported to the island bypassing the alliance and capture the two demons. The island is a nice place for a big battle, large destruction can be done without harming innocent people, so it's suitable for a Sasuke vs Naruto battle if we assume that Kishimoto carefully sets up situations where Sasuke cannot become a mass murderer.

[Kakosan]

Nice chapter! A very relaxed one. After all the Sasuke-wants-to-destroy-the-world it was rather enjoyable

[tkdtiger]

Originally Posted by JustRob

So is Konoha made up of useless ninjas or what? "I can't fight if I have to worry about weaklings others", that typically sounds like something SSJ3 Goku would say to Yamcha. Konoha has some strong and experienced ninja (as seen with Fu and Torune), and they could have been a big help in the fight with Pain. They could have made the fight easier for him. They could have prevented him from going Kyuubi and destroying even more of the village. Instead, he orders them away, and they agree. Shikamaru would probably be useless even without his broken leg, but his old man and Ino's old man, or that Hyuuga who was with Hinata, any of them could have done something. Sure Tsunade is obvious because she's a typical healer and she was already drained. As for the frogs, I don't think you can call summoned creatures a squad.

I would not say they're useless. I think you have to look at the situation. The first that comes to mind is that no one was really prepared for an attack by Pain so soon. Lets not forget we do not really know the strength of Konoha's forces at that time either. Many of their forces could have actually been spread out in many places. For example Gai and his team were not in Konoha when the attack occured. Another thing is Pain was extremely strong. Remember Madara had only mentioned that Sasuke had potential to surpass Pain, which means Pain was strong. So already you have a combination of a powerful person attacking an unsuspecting village. Lets not forget that most the rookies are only chuunin at the moment and although that doesn't nec. show an indication of strength it does show an indication of experience.

[JustRob]

Originally Posted by Fukitsu Naruto

-James was referring to the Chuunin (Part 1) days. I was referring to a recent example of the point. Even in Part 1, Naruto would enter the fray when it was clear that those he is associated with could not do anything "productive". Against Gaara for instance, he took over for Sasuke who was standing on thin ice due to his Cursed Seal activating, paralyzing him while Sakura was slowly being crushed by Gaara's arm. And even then, he was right to do that because he alone held the necessary tools to win the fight in the end.



-You're missing the point here. It is true that Konoha has talented ninja but against the 6 Pain bodies controlled by Nagato, they were borderline useless save for Katsuyu who presented Naruto with limited intel on some of the Pain bodies. Even their intelligence people failed to deduce the location of the man behind the puppets before Naruo mopped the floor with the bodies and found the mastermind's location before them. Yes, he told Tsunade that others would be a hinderance and not only wa he right and listened to, but even others, like Shikaku agreed that it was the smarter option. As for Torune and Fu, they are part of Root ANBU, who remained in hiding with Danzou. They certainly were not going to help Naruto in any way, shape or form. For the frogs, I listed them because you (from my P.O.V) presented yourself as calling Naruto incapable of fighting in a team, that he is not a team player. If you didn't intend to make it seem so than I retract the statement.



-While it is true that Naruto's quest for Sasuke has gotten redundant over the years, he does have a point for 2 specific reasons. For one, Sasuke is like family not only to Naruto but Sakura and Kakashi as well. They are the ones that know him best and are logically the ones that should feel far more responsibility for his departure. However, Naruto is by far the closest to him, even if Sasuke wouldn't admit it. Think of it as the same obligation that Kaneda felt when he had to fight Tetsuo in Akira. Sasuke is Naruto's responsibility so he is naturally his destined opponent. For two, Sasuke, like Naruto, has grown far too powerful and far to quickly for anyone other than Naruto to take on. Even Kakashi was barely able to land anything decisive in their little skirmish a few chapters ago. And now, Sasuke has gotten even stronger (supposedly) with a Narutoverse-style eye surgery. It only makes sense for Naruto to take him on in battle, if for no other reason than to finally decide which among them is the better/stronger ninja.

-I think you are mistaken here. Kakashi's father never sacrificed his teammates. In fact he did the exact opposite. He sacrificed the success of his mission in order to SAVE them instead. However, in the process, he cost Konoha a vital strategy (it is not specified what it was) in some war and thus his name was tarnished to the point where he took his own life in shame. Naruto is the exact replica. He will never, under any circumstance, throw away a teammate/friend away to gain something. To him, his friends are more valuable than either his name, fame, fortune or even his own life. If he were assured/proved to that his death would save the world, he'd do it in a heartbeat, without regret. As long as his friends are safe (which he himself can consider a "family") he does not care what happens to him.

Sigh, you win. Although I still think Naruto should have tag fights more often, instead of fighting every battle on his own. See, when you give a main character so many training sessions and each time he becomes insanely stronger as a result, in the end he'll be the strongest guy in the world, even stronger then people who are twice his age. It kind of disappoints me to be honest.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by SuigetsuKun

So what's gonna happen next on that island? Will they meet King Kong?

No, Mecha-Streisand will be located on Monster Island, and unless Naruto can summon Robert Smith, the world will be doomed.

[Luminion Lancer]

Originally Posted by JustRob

Although I still think Naruto should have tag fights more often, instead of fighting every battle on his own. See, when you give a main character so many training sessions and each time he becomes insanely stronger as a result, in the end he'll be the strongest guy in the world, even stronger then people who are twice his age. It kind of disappoints me to be honest.

-Believe it or not, I agree that he, as well as every other character out there, should work as a true team (in other words, do the fighting together) more often. After all, such fights were the staple of Part 1. They were fun to watch and were generally satisfying as actual thought seemed to go into the teamwork. But that has been thrown away these days in favour of the 1-on-1 fights. As entertaining as they can be, it makes the characters not participating mere spectators despite being mere 5 feet away. We had some semblence of team-fighting with Naruto and the toads, Team Samui and even Sasuke's Taka against Killer Bee. But ultimately, they all came down on a 1-on-1 fight. Yes its sad but blame Kishi for that.

[Kafriel]

Fun chapter, the long awaited NaruBee is here

[Jarmel]

Looks like a new training arc is going to pop up soon. Should be interesting but still stalling the inevitable Sasuke-Naruto deathmatch.

[Mr. Johnny 5]

Naruto's world is the opposite of ours...
While Naruto is the student...he'll soon learn the words from Killerbee the master.

Spoiler for comparison:

Naruto - Eminem/Slim


Killerbee - 50 Cent



Mark my words... Naruto's definetly gonna learn to rap! Nan-da-Da-ta-ta-tata-tebayoo!! (or whatever...)

[CuXe]

Originally Posted by Mr. Johnny 5

Naruto's world is the opposite of ours...
While Naruto is the student...he'll soon learn the words from Killerbee the master.

Spoiler for comparison:

Naruto - Eminem/Slim


Killerbee - 50 Cent



Mark my words... Naruto's definetly gonna learn to rap! Nan-da-Da-ta-ta-tata-tebayoo!! (or whatever...)

Dunno why I am reminded of:

[AuroraFlash]

What if Itachi tagged his eyeballs with a destructive seal that destroys the eyeballs once Sasuke faces Naruto? It could at least protect Konoha from Sasuke and the Uchiha hatred plus protect Sasuke from doing bad things.